15:55:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
15:55:58 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/02/11-pbgsc-irc
15:56:01 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:56:02 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
15:57:08 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #pbgsc
15:57:16 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2022Feb/0000.html
15:57:45 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2022/01/14-pbgsc-minutes.html previous 14 January
16:01:16 <Ralph_> Ralph_ has joined #pbgsc
16:01:51 <Ralph_> present+ Mateus
16:02:15 <Ralph_> present+ Avneesh
16:02:20 <mateus> mateus has joined #pbgsc
16:02:30 <Ralph_> present+ Daihei
16:02:42 <mateus> present+
16:03:19 <Ralph_> present+ WendyReid, Liisa
16:03:53 <Ralph_> regrets+ BIll, Zheng
16:03:57 <dauwhe> regrets+
16:04:21 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbgsc
16:04:26 <liisamk> present+
16:04:43 <Ralph_> topic: Summary of joint meeting with the Interactive Media CG
16:05:29 <Ralph_> Wendy: we met with this newly-formed CG, the Publishing CG, and some of the Synchronized Media CG
16:05:40 <Ralph_> ... Adam is leading the charge in the IM CG
16:05:47 <Ralph_> ... they're starting with use cases
16:06:11 <Ralph_> ... the core idea is a markup language to link together media files to stream sequentially or jointly
16:06:33 <Ralph_> ... there's interest in interactive videos; e.g. choose your adventure, educational scenarios
16:06:48 <Ralph_> ... it's meant for media in general; EPUB, SMIL, ... are part of this ecosystem
16:07:00 <Ralph_> ... it's still up in the air as to what they're aiming at
16:07:07 <Ralph_> ... it's an interesting idea
16:07:17 <Ralph_> ... TBD how much we might get involved
16:07:27 <Ralph_> Tzviya: sounds like there's a lot of existing technology
16:07:36 <Ralph_> ... I hope they're considering what exists already
16:07:49 <Ralph_> Wendy: yes; there is awareness of TTML, SMIL, etc.
16:08:05 <Ralph_> ... once they have more use cases it should be clear what is happening
16:08:19 <wendyreid> Minutes from the meeting: https://www.w3.org/2022/02/09-interactive-media-minutes.html
16:08:46 <Ralph_> Ralph: is there a Publishing issue that this group might be enticed to consider?
16:09:03 <Ralph_> Wendy: there's some talk about interactive fiction, which could be cool for future iterations
16:09:22 <Ralph_> ... but it's too early to know what they might want to achieve
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16:10:36 <liisamk> q+
16:10:42 <Ralph_> Ralph: maybe we have a use case that we would want to toss on their pile and see how much interest generates
16:10:47 <Daihei> present+
16:10:50 <tzviya> q+ to ask if this id RPG
16:10:53 <tzviya> ack liisamk
16:11:05 <Ralph_> Wendy: we don't yet have a technical problem that we can see them addressing
16:11:24 <Ralph_> Liisa: back in 2012 there was conversation about building something in EPUB with some JS and FXL that had interactivity
16:11:35 <Ralph_> ... PRH did some children's books with animation
16:11:55 <Ralph_> ... we built out some of this in EPUB, only one reader could deal with it
16:12:08 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
16:12:15 <Ralph_> ... 10 years later no one has implemented it due to concerns over JS
16:12:39 <Ralph_> ... and the limited local storage in reading systems for being able to keep things like responses to quizzes
16:12:57 <Ralph_> ... people are reluctant to go back to that until there is more interest in the market
16:13:11 <mateus> q+
16:13:20 <Ralph_> ... publishers would like to see something come from the other direction and solve technical challenges
16:13:32 <Ralph_> Tzviya: the concept of enhanced ebooks is separate
16:13:48 <Ralph_> ... I'm trying to understand what this CG is actually after?
16:14:13 <tzviya> ack tz
16:14:13 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask if this id RPG
16:14:16 <tzviya> ack ma
16:14:24 <Ralph_> ... what are the high demands from the marketplace?
16:14:43 <Ralph_> Mateus: my publishing background has a lot of connections with education technology
16:15:07 <Ralph_> ... there are many serious hardware constraints, boundaries around scripting, what compromised we're able to make on privacy and security
16:15:31 <Ralph_> ... for publishers that control their own browser-based platform, we've been able so far to achieve what we want
16:15:47 <Ralph_> ... we can use EPUB as a shelf for our textbooks; browsers do what we want
16:16:03 <Ralph_> ... what we're missing is not the publishing spec but a standard for the interactive content
16:16:14 <Ralph_> ... not how it gets integrated into the EPUB; we have technologies for that
16:16:30 <Ralph_> ... but how do we build all our interactive widgets in a standardized way
16:16:35 <Ralph_> ... analytics, ...
16:16:45 <Ralph_> ... we use Pub Manifest to establish an internal structure
16:16:52 <wendyreid> +1
16:16:56 <tzviya> +1
16:17:04 <Ralph_> ... maybe we can see what happens at this fringe and document how to do it
16:17:35 <tzviya> ack ra
16:17:35 <Zakim> Ralph_, you wanted to thank Liisa
16:17:37 <Ralph_> ... we're deep into this world and are working on providing more interactivity to students in a low-stake way
16:18:23 <Ralph_> s/we're/Norton is/
16:19:02 <Ralph_> Tzviya: using something like the Manifest to make it possible to do "web publications"; making complex content available to users in a browser interface
16:19:03 <wendyreid> q+
16:19:13 <Ralph_> ... this is both necessary for education and not yet standardized
16:19:26 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
16:19:29 <Ralph_> ... we can think about this as a possible future direction
16:19:31 <Ralph_> <ralph> +1
16:20:00 <Ralph_> Wendy: there's definitely some energy in a number of places on building out data structures for content creators and user agents
16:20:34 <Ralph_> ... linear content, multiple pathways, layered video (fg/bg)
16:20:45 <Ralph_> ... this is an area we might want to lean on a bit more
16:21:11 <Ralph_> ... digital publications are probably heading there; looking more at bringing multiple media together on their particular technology stack
16:21:30 <Ralph_> topic: Takeaways from Conference day
16:22:36 <Ralph_> Liisa: scheduling conference days is always a challenge
16:22:54 <Ralph_> ... it took a long time firming up presenters, making sure we have enough content
16:23:07 <Ralph_> ... the agenda came out late but we ended up with more content than we could handle
16:23:11 <Ralph_> ... it was well-received
16:23:22 <Ralph_> ... the comics and manga in Europe presentation was appreciated
16:23:35 <Ralph_> .... Daihei and Beth's presentation comparing Europe, Japan, and the US was great
16:24:06 <Ralph_> ... Daihei's team did an amazing job of taking the content from the first session and the previously-submitted content and translating it to Japanese
16:24:22 <Ralph_> ... we were able to use the video of Luc's presentation
16:24:30 <Ralph_> ... Daihei's team transcribed the whole video
16:24:42 <Ralph_> ... I was able to present Japanese slides!
16:24:52 <Ralph_> ... it worked out well, though a little crowded for time
16:25:35 <Ralph_> ... there were a lot of questions from the Japanese participants on how some of the manga content with violence and sex was handled in other parts of the world
16:25:48 <Ralph_> ... I was exhausted by the end of the day
16:25:58 <tzviya> q+ to make a few suggestions
16:26:01 <Ralph_> ... the plan was to do this in April with a focus on education
16:26:35 <Ralph_> ... it would be good if we can get things out earlier
16:26:49 <Ralph_> Daihei: there were 17 attendees for the North American session
16:27:21 <Ralph_> ... many people were praising the information
16:27:31 <Ralph_> ... a couple of key takeaways:
16:27:41 <Ralph_> ... it is getting to be two major issues that we need to tackle:
16:28:00 <Ralph_> ... piracy, especially in Japan, is getting overwhelming
16:28:23 <Ralph_> ... @@ is consuming 30% of the digital publishing market in Japan
16:28:40 <Ralph_> ... $4.1B in 2021, likely $5B in 2022
16:28:45 <Ralph_> ... 80% is digital manga
16:28:56 <Ralph_> ... 12% from literary / non-fiction
16:29:36 <Ralph_> ... the report I got from the industry organizations is estimating almost $4.1B in piracy
16:30:21 <Ralph_> ... so the piracy figure, which is just manga, shows there is lots of room for growth
16:30:47 <Ralph_> ... digital publishing based on EPUB is a profitable business and gaining audience
16:30:59 <Ralph_> ... piracy is also a business
16:31:11 <Ralph_> ... the issue is how to deal with piracy
16:31:34 <Ralph_> ... another issue is, outside EPUB there are other formats: a major one is WebTunes
16:31:40 <Ralph_> ... vertical scrolling comics is huge
16:31:56 <Ralph_> ... coming from Korea but expanding world-wide
16:32:11 <Ralph_> ... we may need to look into vertical scrolling, not only in EPUB but also in other web-based formats
16:32:36 <Ralph_> ... movies, TV drama, music, all going to streaming; we may need to look into more streaming services for digital pubs
16:32:46 <tzviya> q?
16:32:47 <Ralph_> ... maybe streaming can help with the piracy issue
16:33:03 <Ralph_> ... people asked me if EPUB is a suitable format for streaming
16:33:11 <Ralph_> ... we need to look into these
16:33:31 <Ralph_> ... in April we can look into educational publishing
16:33:40 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to make a few suggestions
16:33:52 <Ralph_> Tzviya: if we do these too often we'll get lower attendance
16:34:01 <Ralph_> ... people are tired of on-line conferences
16:34:11 <Ralph_> ... maybe do them once a quarter
16:34:40 <Ralph_> ... since the whole idea is to get community engagement, I suggest reducing the number of speakers for the 90 minutes
16:35:03 <Ralph_> ... maybe at most 3 speakers; allow a maximum of 60 minutes for the speakers
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16:35:52 <Ralph_> ... in another  successful style the organizer does a dry-run beforehand and prepares some questions to get the audience started
16:36:10 <zheng_xu_> present+
16:36:22 <Ralph_> ... a presenter can address a question as "I've heard people ask ..." and that gets the ball rolling to get engagement
16:36:23 <Daihei> q+
16:36:29 <tzviya> ack dai
16:36:47 <Ralph_> Daihei: I appreciate that advice
16:37:02 <Ralph_> ... a number of people came back to me and said that they wanted to talk more than the 90 minutes
16:37:10 <Ralph_> ... they wanted more time to ask questions
16:37:25 <Ralph_> ... it's a matter of what is satisfactory to the audience
16:37:37 <Ralph_> ... and whether the discussion can support the business
16:38:00 <Ralph_> ... for the NA/Japan session I did not hear any complaints about the length of the meeting
16:38:01 <liisamk> q+
16:38:14 <tzviya> ack liisamk
16:38:14 <Ralph_> Tzviya: just make sure to leave more time for questions
16:38:21 <Ralph_> ... many people can't stay later
16:38:32 <Ralph_> Liisa: I appreciate the advice for April
16:38:48 <Ralph_> ... this time we were in a tough spot in not having confirmation from some of the speakers even up to a day before
16:39:04 <Ralph_> ... and one of the speakers had to drop out at the last minute
16:39:15 <Ralph_> Tzviya: just trying to give constructive feedback
16:39:20 <wendyreid> q+
16:39:31 <Ralph_> Liisa: should we try for April or wait to May?
16:39:39 <Ralph_> ... right now quarterly puts us on odd dates
16:39:52 <tzviya> ack we
16:39:59 <Ralph_> Tzviya: OK to push it off; no one says we have to have a conference day in April
16:40:09 <Ralph_> Wendy: the chairs get to pick the schedule that works for you
16:40:14 <tzviya> s/we have/we do not have
16:40:38 <Ralph_> ... pick what works for you and the presenters
16:41:09 <Ralph_> Liisa: we did our best and it worked out better than we'd worried the day before
16:41:29 <Ralph_> s/presenters/presenters; be kind to yourselves
16:41:48 <liisamk> q+
16:41:49 <Ralph_> Daihei: we'd like to make this work for the members and Publishing@W3C
16:41:56 <Ralph_> ... people are paying attention and want to hear more
16:42:04 <Ralph_> ... but it does require a lot of coordination
16:42:27 <Ralph_> ... my folk transcribed and translated the video in a few hours
16:42:36 <Ralph_> <ralph> incredible!
16:42:49 <Ralph_> ... I think we did a good job
16:42:58 <tzviya> ack li
16:43:20 <Ralph_> Liisa: after education, the only other request for a topic we have is NFTs
16:43:34 <Ralph_> ... we have people with some very interesting use cases in Europe
16:43:50 <Ralph_> Tzviya: it's important to entertain things that are in scope for W3C
16:43:52 <zheng_xu_> I like talk about NFT
16:44:10 <Ralph_> ... I'm pretty certain that there would be objections to Rec-track work on NFTs
16:44:12 <zheng_xu_> s/I like talk about NFT/I like to hear about NFT/
16:44:28 <tzviya> ack r
16:45:47 <Ralph_> Ralph: just because a topic might be out of scope for W3C Rec track work shouldn't stop the BG from organizing a session to learn about it
16:46:09 <Ralph_> Daihei: it's worthwhile to share information about other things that are challenges to publishers
16:46:42 <mateus> q+
16:46:45 <Ralph_> Tzviya: there's a lot of confusion about what NFTs are; I'd suggest starting with an explanation of that
16:46:51 <Ralph_> topic: Update on BG/CG joint meeting
16:47:02 <tzviya> ack mateus
16:47:36 <Ralph_> Mateus: we've been communicating by email; it's difficult to find a time and date that works
16:48:00 <Ralph_> ... we need to get an agenda in place
16:48:13 <Ralph_> ... I'll be optimistic and say that mid-March may work for all of us
16:48:30 <Ralph_> Wolfgang: Zheng and I have started to develop a template for use cases
16:48:36 <Ralph_> ... we've written an explainer
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16:49:54 <Ralph> regrets- Zheng
16:49:54 <Ralph> present+ Zheng
16:50:28 <Ralph> Wolfgang: the template has a recommended format
16:51:03 <Ralph> ... to be precise about the roles, what position you have in the ecosystem
16:51:34 <Ralph> ... be specific and not have global statements about the goal
16:51:45 <Ralph> ... which role in publishing requires what functionality and what is meant by that
16:52:10 <Ralph> ... e.g. people say "I want a big battery for my electric car" but really they want to be able to drive a long distance
16:52:50 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/pull/25
16:52:57 <tzviya> q?
16:53:02 <Ralph> Tzviya: maybe move the sample text to the top and the directions below so people who don't need the directions can just fill-in the text
16:53:06 <liisamk> q+
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16:53:17 <tzviya> ack liisamk
16:53:21 <zheng_xu_> q+
16:53:26 <avneeshsingh> present+
16:53:39 <Ralph> Liisa: this is really good for forward-thinking and trying to come up with something that doesn't currently exist
16:53:58 <Ralph> ... how do we deal with things that are currently issues or that people don't know are currently issues?
16:54:41 <Ralph> ... e.g. dealing with complicated tables and controlling column widths but not realizing that there is a fine line of what you can control across various reading systems that won't be chewed up in production systems
16:54:51 <Ralph> Tzviya: you've explained an implementation
16:55:05 <Ralph> ... "as a reader on a mobile reader, I would like to be able to view large tables"
16:55:27 <Ralph> ... you know the problems in implementation; you have additional information about how RS behave
16:55:39 <Ralph> ... you can add notes to that effect
16:55:54 <Ralph> .. .but the user description is "I like to see the full width of the table"
16:56:04 <Ralph> ... or "I want to be able to view the table"
16:56:17 <Ralph> ... we're just defining the problem in the use case and not the solution
16:56:27 <tzviya> ack zh
16:56:34 <Ralph> ... we're writing about the specifications and not necessarily the implementations
16:56:48 <Ralph> Zheng: the use cases are not only for future needs
16:56:56 <Ralph> ... we can create use cases for current needs
16:57:17 <Ralph> ... the format can work for both
16:57:25 <Ralph> ... try it out
16:57:38 <Ralph> ... I just found out some interesting things about media overlay; I might try that first
16:57:47 <Ralph> Tzviya: it's mean to be a low barrier for documentation
16:58:23 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34786/tpac2022-fall-meetings/
17:00:14 <Ralph> topic: Heads-up on TPAC survey
17:00:48 <Ralph> Ralph: please have conversations in your groups and give us your best guesses as to whether you might have critical mass for an in-person component along with remote participation
17:00:59 <Ralph> ... we need to make a go/no-go decision the first week of April
17:01:15 <Ralph> ... we know you won't have perfect information; please give us the best you can
17:02:01 <Ralph> ... we're unlikely to be able to accomodate CGs but if there's a lot of interest in in-person I'd still like to know
17:02:05 <Ralph> [adjourned]
17:02:10 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
17:02:10 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Mateus, Avneesh, Daihei, WendyReid, Liisa, liisamk, wolfgang, zheng_xu_, avneeshsingh
17:02:12 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:02:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/11-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
17:02:15 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:02:19 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
17:07:51 <Ralph> present+ Tzviya, Ralph
17:07:54 <Ralph> chair: Tzviya
17:08:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/11-pbgsc-minutes.html Ralph