IRC log of aria on 2022-02-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:54:02 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:54:02 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/02/10-aria-irc
17:54:04 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:54:05 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:54:07 [jamesn]
meeting: ARIA WG
17:54:14 [jamesn]
chair: JamesNurthen
17:54:25 [jamesn]
agendabot, find agenda
17:54:25 [agendabot]
jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:54:27 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/1d223877-730c-446f-bfa9-2e9222902112/20220210T130000
17:54:27 [agendabot]
clear agenda
17:54:27 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3JiPM8a
17:54:27 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3rE2mZs
17:54:28 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> 1.3 blocking issues https://bit.ly/35V7G25
17:54:31 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:54:33 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Announcement - Minutes Archive https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/minutes
17:54:36 [agendabot]
agenda+ TPAC 2022 - Who might attend in person? Vancouver from 12 to 16 September 2022. Non-binding straw poll?
17:54:39 [agendabot]
agenda+ Charter Update?
17:54:42 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Handling Author Errors: form & region roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1683
17:54:45 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Initial aria-textseparation (depends on generic PR being merged) https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/996
17:54:48 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Consider collapsing Base Concept category into Related Concepts https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1679
17:54:51 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Inconsistency between native and ARIA listboxes when implicit aria-selected is provided https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1661
17:54:54 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Should ARIA provide better support for routing in single-page applications? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1353
17:56:01 [melsumner]
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17:59:23 [Irfan]
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17:59:35 [Irfan]
present+
17:59:57 [Irfan]
agenda?
18:01:28 [MichaelC]
present+
18:01:35 [joanie]
present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
18:01:41 [myasonik]
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18:02:22 [sarah_higley]
sarah_higley has joined #aria
18:02:25 [carmacleod]
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18:02:32 [carmacleod]
present+
18:02:44 [sarah_higley]
present+
18:02:46 [chlane]
scribe: chlane
18:03:28 [scotto]
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18:03:55 [melsumner]
present+
18:04:18 [scotto]
present+
18:04:19 [aaronlev]
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18:04:54 [chlane]
zakim, next item
18:04:54 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3JiPM8a -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:05:49 [chlane]
definition of navigation,
18:06:24 [siri]
siri has joined #aria
18:06:28 [chlane]
jamesn: don't think we should define it
18:06:47 [chlane]
someone else should define it like the HTML spec
18:07:02 [chlane]
melsumner: seconds that define at base level
18:07:43 [chlane]
navigate is defined in app history api and html standard, session history and navigation
18:07:53 [chlane]
https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/history.html#history
18:08:53 [chlane]
jamesn: leave open, not define in aria
18:09:10 [chlane]
1.4
18:09:19 [chlane]
zakim, next item
18:09:19 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3rE2mZs -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:10:16 [chlane]
#148m
18:10:53 [chlane]
scott: label should behave the same as labelledby
18:11:09 [chlane]
jamesn:accname issue?
18:11:27 [chlane]
html aam doesn't devolve to accname without label or labelledby
18:11:44 [chlane]
scott accname computation is not lang specific
18:11:57 [spectranaut]
present+ valerie_young
18:12:14 [chlane]
scott: add to html aam, a note for hidden sources
18:12:47 [chlane]
aaronlev: draft PR to look at
18:12:55 [chlane]
aaronlev: for hidden stuff
18:13:14 [chlane]
changeing license, no review needed
18:13:37 [chlane]
1690 PR mel and Jamesn
18:13:48 [chlane]
zakim, next item
18:13:48 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- -> 1.3 blocking issues https://bit.ly/35V7G25 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:14:47 [chlane]
1159, mel has it
18:15:05 [chlane]
1177 jamesn pinging in issue
18:15:15 [chlane]
1365
18:15:23 [chlane]
jamesn: up for review
18:15:37 [chlane]
zakim, next item
18:15:37 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:16:30 [chlane]
no dd next week or the 24th jamesn on vaca
18:16:34 [chlane]
zakim, next item
18:16:34 [Zakim]
agendum 4 was just opened, chlane
18:16:47 [chlane]
zakim, close this item
18:16:47 [Zakim]
agendum 4 closed
18:16:48 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:16:48 [Zakim]
5. -> Announcement - Minutes Archive https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/minutes [from agendabot]
18:16:53 [chlane]
zakim, next item
18:16:53 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- -> Announcement - Minutes Archive https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/minutes -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:17:26 [chlane]
jamesn: patchy
18:17:33 [harris]
harris has joined #aria
18:17:41 [harris]
present+
18:17:51 [chlane]
partially a warning that these minutes will be google searchable
18:18:03 [chlane]
people will finding old minutes more often
18:18:48 [chlane]
scott: promies a shirt
18:19:02 [chlane]
to Michael
18:19:18 [chlane]
scott: Roberto has joined welcome
18:23:20 [chlane]
siri works at apple lol by irfan
18:23:53 [chlane]
we won't say hey siri
18:24:03 [chlane]
zakim, next item
18:24:03 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- TPAC 2022 - Who might attend in person? Vancouver from 12 to 16 September 2022. Non-binding straw poll? -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:24:34 [chlane]
hybrid in person remote meeting
18:24:42 [chlane]
how many would come to vancouver
18:24:45 [chlane]
?
18:25:37 [chlane]
folk are in favor of meeting and attending
18:25:55 [chlane]
some won't be able to travel, facilitate remote participation
18:26:18 [chlane]
jamesn: webaccessibility slack channel?
18:26:51 [chlane]
wcag slack channel is free plan not archived
18:27:20 [chlane]
web-a11y.slack.com
18:27:31 [chlane]
have to be invited, thousands on it
18:27:49 [chlane]
jamesn: can send one around, we have enough people to do it
18:28:22 [chlane]
lol
18:28:47 [chlane]
scott will bring tshirts, more than a feeling
18:29:09 [chlane]
orgs should pay expenses
18:29:41 [chlane]
micheal: diversity fund, targeted to invited experts with no sponsors
18:29:54 [chlane]
contact micheal cooper
18:31:15 [chlane]
zakim, next item
18:31:15 [Zakim]
agendum 7 -- Charter Update? -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:31:30 [chlane]
new charter, recently joined have to rejoin
18:32:03 [chlane]
we are kicked off, sign up again, once every 2 or 3 years, new patent policy
18:32:11 [chlane]
march 10th is the deadline
18:32:44 [chlane]
AC rep should do it
18:33:25 [chlane]
AC rep has to rejoin for you
18:33:44 [chlane]
they have to agree to new patent policy
18:34:17 [chlane]
joanne: expedite recommendation status?
18:34:26 [chlane]
MichaelC: updated CR
18:34:37 [chlane]
recommendation snapshot every 2 years
18:34:44 [chlane]
move aams to that status
18:35:01 [chlane]
do snapshot when we have everything that supports base version
18:35:16 [chlane]
jamesn: more people doing implementation and testing
18:35:32 [chlane]
we have joannie and valerie
18:36:06 [chlane]
zakim, next item
18:36:06 [Zakim]
agendum 8 -- -> Handling Author Errors: form & region roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1683 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:36:35 [chlane]
scotto: Sarahs point in review,
18:36:46 [chlane]
regions not announced as such without names
18:36:55 [chlane]
this happens in html
18:37:17 [chlane]
sara found role was announced without name
18:37:34 [chlane]
good idea to have parity to html
18:37:39 [chlane]
but aria is more specific
18:38:08 [chlane]
joanie: 1.1 - 1.2 changed spec to say authors must provide a name
18:38:18 [chlane]
user agents need a backup plan
18:38:28 [chlane]
best way is to not make it a landmark
18:38:39 [chlane]
like html
18:38:41 [chlane]
contention
18:38:56 [chlane]
form doesn't want to be generic if it is not a landmark
18:39:28 [chlane]
choices - landmark, generic, something in between
18:39:33 [chlane]
"this is a form"
18:39:44 [chlane]
"tell me all the things in this form"
18:40:05 [chlane]
IA2 role landmark
18:40:19 [carmacleod]
https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/100
18:40:34 [carmacleod]
Should form-with-name map to IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK?
18:41:19 [chlane]
issue for both core aam and html-aam
18:41:41 [chlane]
need several people to look at this mappings table
18:41:45 [chlane]
will provide Pr
18:41:57 [aaronlev]
Chrome/IA2 exposes <form> without name as IA2_ROLE_SECTION, and with name as IA2_ROLE_FORM
18:41:59 [chlane]
and issue
18:41:59 [aaronlev]
https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:content/test/data/accessibility/html/form-expected-win.txt?q=form-expected-win&ss=chromium
18:42:47 [chlane]
Matt: screen readers would ignore it
18:42:59 [chlane]
if role=form has an effect
18:43:03 [chlane]
any at all
18:43:15 [chlane]
author is expressing intent
18:43:33 [chlane]
Matt: can't imagine why we would tell an author to do that
18:44:03 [chlane]
Joanne: give it a name when using role=form
18:44:06 [siri]
like for section element give a name to announce as region
18:44:11 [chlane]
jamesn: larger issue
18:44:31 [chlane]
tackle in parrallel with the one Scott put on the agenda
18:44:56 [chlane]
joanie: James Craig, I am unsure of apple mappings
18:45:11 [chlane]
jamesn: directon of this?
18:45:48 [chlane]
a div with role=form should be exposed as if it was not there
18:46:03 [aaronlev]
You can see how Chrome maps nameless and named forms to all platforms here:
18:46:07 [aaronlev]
https://source.chromium.org/search?q=%2Fform-expected-&ss=chromium
18:46:18 [aaronlev]
The first form is nameless, the second one has a name
18:46:19 [chlane]
siri: main element, nav element AT exposes
18:46:33 [chlane]
<form>should expose it
18:46:54 [chlane]
jamesn: just expose an unnamed form?
18:47:08 [chlane]
matt: but not as a landmark region
18:47:14 [chlane]
jamesn: why not
18:47:15 [chlane]
?
18:47:37 [chlane]
Matt: region not exposes as a region without a name
18:47:52 [chlane]
matt: creates unintentional landmarks
18:47:57 [chlane]
big problem
18:48:36 [chlane]
carmacleod: github forms are goofy
18:48:46 [chlane]
form elements
18:49:08 [chlane]
scotto:they are form elements with names
18:49:19 [chlane]
jamesn: coding problem
18:49:36 [chlane]
Matt: if we have naming requirement
18:49:49 [chlane]
no name then not a landmark
18:49:52 [melsumner]
q+
18:50:01 [chlane]
scott did it for html forms
18:50:27 [chlane]
form element is not exposed as a landmark unless it is named
18:51:01 [chlane]
Roberto: landmark element with role=region?
18:51:12 [chlane]
region is just one of the landmark roles
18:51:15 [chlane]
there are 7
18:51:38 [chlane]
native landmarks don't require namesw!
18:51:57 [chlane]
siri html doesn't have section element
18:52:01 [jamesn]
q?
18:52:16 [chlane]
siri: agrees no need to have name
18:52:39 [chlane]
names will be helpful
18:52:44 [chlane]
with many forms
18:53:15 [chlane]
melsumner: forms never seen div role=form
18:53:20 [chlane]
has anyone seen that?
18:53:35 [chlane]
need more info, method action, other stuff
18:53:55 [chlane]
how do you get values to the backend
18:54:04 [melsumner]
q-
18:54:06 [chlane]
should be allowd to fail
18:54:20 [chlane]
Harris: benefit to using <form> for enter key submission
18:54:28 [chlane]
Sarah has seen this
18:54:36 [chlane]
legacy code
18:54:43 [chlane]
Robert, in AEM
18:55:00 [Matt_King]
Matt_King has joined #aria
18:55:09 [chlane]
scotto: use most appropriate landmark
18:55:17 [Matt_King]
present+
18:55:18 [Matt_King]
q?
18:55:22 [chlane]
jamesn: there are other things than just form elements on the page
18:55:24 [melsumner]
for clarity, I advocate for this scenario being allowed to fail because the author is failing on multiple levels here
18:55:24 [siri]
Present +
18:56:49 [chlane]
jcraig:
18:57:18 [chlane]
do we need to map this doen'st look like it looking for guidance
18:58:02 [chlane]
matt: div role=form no name to role=generic
18:58:03 [chlane]
?
18:58:17 [chlane]
jamesn: role=form map to navigation with no name
18:58:35 [chlane]
carmacleod: form is the only role that matters
18:58:49 [chlane]
carmacleod: maps to native element that is form
18:59:47 [chlane]
map to whatever the base html element if role=form is not there?
19:00:25 [chlane]
jcraig: fallback roles
19:00:29 [chlane]
account for in PR
19:00:39 [chlane]
Jamie had a strong opinion
19:00:55 [chlane]
carmacleod: needs help on this
19:01:00 [siri]
Why to use role=form why can't we role=none if it is generic
19:01:18 [chlane]
zakim, make minutes
19:01:18 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'make minutes', chlane
19:01:41 [chlane]
rrsagent make minutes
19:01:53 [chlane]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:01:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/10-aria-minutes.html chlane