IRC log of aria on 2022-02-10
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 17:54:02 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #aria
- 17:54:02 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/02/10-aria-irc
- 17:54:04 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 17:54:05 [Zakim]
- please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
- 17:54:07 [jamesn]
- meeting: ARIA WG
- 17:54:14 [jamesn]
- chair: JamesNurthen
- 17:54:25 [jamesn]
- agendabot, find agenda
- 17:54:25 [agendabot]
- jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
- 17:54:27 [agendabot]
- agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/1d223877-730c-446f-bfa9-2e9222902112/20220210T130000
- 17:54:27 [agendabot]
- clear agenda
- 17:54:27 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3JiPM8a
- 17:54:27 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3rE2mZs
- 17:54:28 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> 1.3 blocking issues https://bit.ly/35V7G25
- 17:54:31 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
- 17:54:33 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> Announcement - Minutes Archive https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/minutes
- 17:54:36 [agendabot]
- agenda+ TPAC 2022 - Who might attend in person? Vancouver from 12 to 16 September 2022. Non-binding straw poll?
- 17:54:39 [agendabot]
- agenda+ Charter Update?
- 17:54:42 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> Handling Author Errors: form & region roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1683
- 17:54:45 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> Initial aria-textseparation (depends on generic PR being merged) https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/996
- 17:54:48 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> Consider collapsing Base Concept category into Related Concepts https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1679
- 17:54:51 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> Inconsistency between native and ARIA listboxes when implicit aria-selected is provided https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1661
- 17:54:54 [agendabot]
- agenda+ -> Should ARIA provide better support for routing in single-page applications? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1353
- 17:56:01 [melsumner]
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- 17:59:23 [Irfan]
- Irfan has joined #aria
- 17:59:35 [Irfan]
- present+
- 17:59:57 [Irfan]
- agenda?
- 18:01:28 [MichaelC]
- present+
- 18:01:35 [joanie]
- present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
- 18:01:41 [myasonik]
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- 18:02:22 [sarah_higley]
- sarah_higley has joined #aria
- 18:02:25 [carmacleod]
- carmacleod has joined #aria
- 18:02:32 [carmacleod]
- present+
- 18:02:44 [sarah_higley]
- present+
- 18:02:46 [chlane]
- scribe: chlane
- 18:03:28 [scotto]
- scotto has joined #aria
- 18:03:55 [melsumner]
- present+
- 18:04:18 [scotto]
- present+
- 18:04:19 [aaronlev]
- aaronlev has joined #aria
- 18:04:54 [chlane]
- zakim, next item
- 18:04:54 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3JiPM8a -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 18:05:49 [chlane]
- definition of navigation,
- 18:06:24 [siri]
- siri has joined #aria
- 18:06:28 [chlane]
- jamesn: don't think we should define it
- 18:06:47 [chlane]
- someone else should define it like the HTML spec
- 18:07:02 [chlane]
- melsumner: seconds that define at base level
- 18:07:43 [chlane]
- navigate is defined in app history api and html standard, session history and navigation
- 18:07:53 [chlane]
- https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/history.html#history
- 18:08:53 [chlane]
- jamesn: leave open, not define in aria
- 18:09:10 [chlane]
- 1.4
- 18:09:19 [chlane]
- zakim, next item
- 18:09:19 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3rE2mZs -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 18:10:16 [chlane]
- #148m
- 18:10:53 [chlane]
- scott: label should behave the same as labelledby
- 18:11:09 [chlane]
- jamesn:accname issue?
- 18:11:27 [chlane]
- html aam doesn't devolve to accname without label or labelledby
- 18:11:44 [chlane]
- scott accname computation is not lang specific
- 18:11:57 [spectranaut]
- present+ valerie_young
- 18:12:14 [chlane]
- scott: add to html aam, a note for hidden sources
- 18:12:47 [chlane]
- aaronlev: draft PR to look at
- 18:12:55 [chlane]
- aaronlev: for hidden stuff
- 18:13:14 [chlane]
- changeing license, no review needed
- 18:13:37 [chlane]
- 1690 PR mel and Jamesn
- 18:13:48 [chlane]
- zakim, next item
- 18:13:48 [Zakim]
- agendum 3 -- -> 1.3 blocking issues https://bit.ly/35V7G25 -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 18:14:47 [chlane]
- 1159, mel has it
- 18:15:05 [chlane]
- 1177 jamesn pinging in issue
- 18:15:15 [chlane]
- 1365
- 18:15:23 [chlane]
- jamesn: up for review
- 18:15:37 [chlane]
- zakim, next item
- 18:15:37 [Zakim]
- agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 18:16:30 [chlane]
- no dd next week or the 24th jamesn on vaca
- 18:16:34 [chlane]
- zakim, next item
- 18:16:34 [Zakim]
- agendum 4 was just opened, chlane
- 18:16:47 [chlane]
- zakim, close this item
- 18:16:47 [Zakim]
- agendum 4 closed
- 18:16:48 [Zakim]
- I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 18:16:48 [Zakim]
- 5. -> Announcement - Minutes Archive https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/minutes [from agendabot]
- 18:16:53 [chlane]
- zakim, next item
- 18:16:53 [Zakim]
- agendum 5 -- -> Announcement - Minutes Archive https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/minutes -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 18:17:26 [chlane]
- jamesn: patchy
- 18:17:33 [harris]
- harris has joined #aria
- 18:17:41 [harris]
- present+
- 18:17:51 [chlane]
- partially a warning that these minutes will be google searchable
- 18:18:03 [chlane]
- people will finding old minutes more often
- 18:18:48 [chlane]
- scott: promies a shirt
- 18:19:02 [chlane]
- to Michael
- 18:19:18 [chlane]
- scott: Roberto has joined welcome
- 18:23:20 [chlane]
- siri works at apple lol by irfan
- 18:23:53 [chlane]
- we won't say hey siri
- 18:24:03 [chlane]
- zakim, next item
- 18:24:03 [Zakim]
- agendum 6 -- TPAC 2022 - Who might attend in person? Vancouver from 12 to 16 September 2022. Non-binding straw poll? -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 18:24:34 [chlane]
- hybrid in person remote meeting
- 18:24:42 [chlane]
- how many would come to vancouver
- 18:24:45 [chlane]
- ?
- 18:25:37 [chlane]
- folk are in favor of meeting and attending
- 18:25:55 [chlane]
- some won't be able to travel, facilitate remote participation
- 18:26:18 [chlane]
- jamesn: webaccessibility slack channel?
- 18:26:51 [chlane]
- wcag slack channel is free plan not archived
- 18:27:20 [chlane]
- web-a11y.slack.com
- 18:27:31 [chlane]
- have to be invited, thousands on it
- 18:27:49 [chlane]
- jamesn: can send one around, we have enough people to do it
- 18:28:22 [chlane]
- lol
- 18:28:47 [chlane]
- scott will bring tshirts, more than a feeling
- 18:29:09 [chlane]
- orgs should pay expenses
- 18:29:41 [chlane]
- micheal: diversity fund, targeted to invited experts with no sponsors
- 18:29:54 [chlane]
- contact micheal cooper
- 18:31:15 [chlane]
- zakim, next item
- 18:31:15 [Zakim]
- agendum 7 -- Charter Update? -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 18:31:30 [chlane]
- new charter, recently joined have to rejoin
- 18:32:03 [chlane]
- we are kicked off, sign up again, once every 2 or 3 years, new patent policy
- 18:32:11 [chlane]
- march 10th is the deadline
- 18:32:44 [chlane]
- AC rep should do it
- 18:33:25 [chlane]
- AC rep has to rejoin for you
- 18:33:44 [chlane]
- they have to agree to new patent policy
- 18:34:17 [chlane]
- joanne: expedite recommendation status?
- 18:34:26 [chlane]
- MichaelC: updated CR
- 18:34:37 [chlane]
- recommendation snapshot every 2 years
- 18:34:44 [chlane]
- move aams to that status
- 18:35:01 [chlane]
- do snapshot when we have everything that supports base version
- 18:35:16 [chlane]
- jamesn: more people doing implementation and testing
- 18:35:32 [chlane]
- we have joannie and valerie
- 18:36:06 [chlane]
- zakim, next item
- 18:36:06 [Zakim]
- agendum 8 -- -> Handling Author Errors: form & region roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1683 -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 18:36:35 [chlane]
- scotto: Sarahs point in review,
- 18:36:46 [chlane]
- regions not announced as such without names
- 18:36:55 [chlane]
- this happens in html
- 18:37:17 [chlane]
- sara found role was announced without name
- 18:37:34 [chlane]
- good idea to have parity to html
- 18:37:39 [chlane]
- but aria is more specific
- 18:38:08 [chlane]
- joanie: 1.1 - 1.2 changed spec to say authors must provide a name
- 18:38:18 [chlane]
- user agents need a backup plan
- 18:38:28 [chlane]
- best way is to not make it a landmark
- 18:38:39 [chlane]
- like html
- 18:38:41 [chlane]
- contention
- 18:38:56 [chlane]
- form doesn't want to be generic if it is not a landmark
- 18:39:28 [chlane]
- choices - landmark, generic, something in between
- 18:39:33 [chlane]
- "this is a form"
- 18:39:44 [chlane]
- "tell me all the things in this form"
- 18:40:05 [chlane]
- IA2 role landmark
- 18:40:19 [carmacleod]
- https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/100
- 18:40:34 [carmacleod]
- Should form-with-name map to IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK?
- 18:41:19 [chlane]
- issue for both core aam and html-aam
- 18:41:41 [chlane]
- need several people to look at this mappings table
- 18:41:45 [chlane]
- will provide Pr
- 18:41:57 [aaronlev]
- Chrome/IA2 exposes <form> without name as IA2_ROLE_SECTION, and with name as IA2_ROLE_FORM
- 18:41:59 [chlane]
- and issue
- 18:41:59 [aaronlev]
- https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:content/test/data/accessibility/html/form-expected-win.txt?q=form-expected-win&ss=chromium
- 18:42:47 [chlane]
- Matt: screen readers would ignore it
- 18:42:59 [chlane]
- if role=form has an effect
- 18:43:03 [chlane]
- any at all
- 18:43:15 [chlane]
- author is expressing intent
- 18:43:33 [chlane]
- Matt: can't imagine why we would tell an author to do that
- 18:44:03 [chlane]
- Joanne: give it a name when using role=form
- 18:44:06 [siri]
- like for section element give a name to announce as region
- 18:44:11 [chlane]
- jamesn: larger issue
- 18:44:31 [chlane]
- tackle in parrallel with the one Scott put on the agenda
- 18:44:56 [chlane]
- joanie: James Craig, I am unsure of apple mappings
- 18:45:11 [chlane]
- jamesn: directon of this?
- 18:45:48 [chlane]
- a div with role=form should be exposed as if it was not there
- 18:46:03 [aaronlev]
- You can see how Chrome maps nameless and named forms to all platforms here:
- 18:46:07 [aaronlev]
- https://source.chromium.org/search?q=%2Fform-expected-&ss=chromium
- 18:46:18 [aaronlev]
- The first form is nameless, the second one has a name
- 18:46:19 [chlane]
- siri: main element, nav element AT exposes
- 18:46:33 [chlane]
- <form>should expose it
- 18:46:54 [chlane]
- jamesn: just expose an unnamed form?
- 18:47:08 [chlane]
- matt: but not as a landmark region
- 18:47:14 [chlane]
- jamesn: why not
- 18:47:15 [chlane]
- ?
- 18:47:37 [chlane]
- Matt: region not exposes as a region without a name
- 18:47:52 [chlane]
- matt: creates unintentional landmarks
- 18:47:57 [chlane]
- big problem
- 18:48:36 [chlane]
- carmacleod: github forms are goofy
- 18:48:46 [chlane]
- form elements
- 18:49:08 [chlane]
- scotto:they are form elements with names
- 18:49:19 [chlane]
- jamesn: coding problem
- 18:49:36 [chlane]
- Matt: if we have naming requirement
- 18:49:49 [chlane]
- no name then not a landmark
- 18:49:52 [melsumner]
- q+
- 18:50:01 [chlane]
- scott did it for html forms
- 18:50:27 [chlane]
- form element is not exposed as a landmark unless it is named
- 18:51:01 [chlane]
- Roberto: landmark element with role=region?
- 18:51:12 [chlane]
- region is just one of the landmark roles
- 18:51:15 [chlane]
- there are 7
- 18:51:38 [chlane]
- native landmarks don't require namesw!
- 18:51:57 [chlane]
- siri html doesn't have section element
- 18:52:01 [jamesn]
- q?
- 18:52:16 [chlane]
- siri: agrees no need to have name
- 18:52:39 [chlane]
- names will be helpful
- 18:52:44 [chlane]
- with many forms
- 18:53:15 [chlane]
- melsumner: forms never seen div role=form
- 18:53:20 [chlane]
- has anyone seen that?
- 18:53:35 [chlane]
- need more info, method action, other stuff
- 18:53:55 [chlane]
- how do you get values to the backend
- 18:54:04 [melsumner]
- q-
- 18:54:06 [chlane]
- should be allowd to fail
- 18:54:20 [chlane]
- Harris: benefit to using <form> for enter key submission
- 18:54:28 [chlane]
- Sarah has seen this
- 18:54:36 [chlane]
- legacy code
- 18:54:43 [chlane]
- Robert, in AEM
- 18:55:00 [Matt_King]
- Matt_King has joined #aria
- 18:55:09 [chlane]
- scotto: use most appropriate landmark
- 18:55:17 [Matt_King]
- present+
- 18:55:18 [Matt_King]
- q?
- 18:55:22 [chlane]
- jamesn: there are other things than just form elements on the page
- 18:55:24 [melsumner]
- for clarity, I advocate for this scenario being allowed to fail because the author is failing on multiple levels here
- 18:55:24 [siri]
- Present +
- 18:56:49 [chlane]
- jcraig:
- 18:57:18 [chlane]
- do we need to map this doen'st look like it looking for guidance
- 18:58:02 [chlane]
- matt: div role=form no name to role=generic
- 18:58:03 [chlane]
- ?
- 18:58:17 [chlane]
- jamesn: role=form map to navigation with no name
- 18:58:35 [chlane]
- carmacleod: form is the only role that matters
- 18:58:49 [chlane]
- carmacleod: maps to native element that is form
- 18:59:47 [chlane]
- map to whatever the base html element if role=form is not there?
- 19:00:25 [chlane]
- jcraig: fallback roles
- 19:00:29 [chlane]
- account for in PR
- 19:00:39 [chlane]
- Jamie had a strong opinion
- 19:00:55 [chlane]
- carmacleod: needs help on this
- 19:01:00 [siri]
- Why to use role=form why can't we role=none if it is generic
- 19:01:18 [chlane]
- zakim, make minutes
- 19:01:18 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'make minutes', chlane
- 19:01:41 [chlane]
- rrsagent make minutes
- 19:01:53 [chlane]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 19:01:53 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/10-aria-minutes.html chlane