17:54:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:54:02 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/02/10-aria-irc
17:54:04 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:54:05 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:54:07 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
17:54:14 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
17:54:25 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:54:25 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:54:27 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/1d223877-730c-446f-bfa9-2e9222902112/20220210T130000
17:54:27 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:54:27 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3JiPM8a
17:54:27 <agendabot> agenda+  -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3rE2mZs
17:54:28 <agendabot> agenda+  -> 1.3 blocking issues https://bit.ly/35V7G25
17:54:31 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:54:33 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Announcement - Minutes Archive https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/minutes
17:54:36 <agendabot> agenda+ TPAC 2022 - Who might attend in person? Vancouver from 12 to 16 September 2022. Non-binding straw poll?
17:54:39 <agendabot> agenda+ Charter Update?
17:54:42 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Handling Author Errors: form & region roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1683
17:54:45 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Initial aria-textseparation (depends on generic PR being merged) https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/996
17:54:48 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Consider collapsing Base Concept category into Related Concepts https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1679
17:54:51 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Inconsistency between native and ARIA listboxes when implicit aria-selected is provided https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1661
17:54:54 <agendabot> agenda+  -> Should ARIA provide better support for routing in single-page applications? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1353
17:56:01 <melsumner> melsumner has joined #aria
17:59:23 <Irfan> Irfan has joined #aria
17:59:35 <Irfan> present+
17:59:57 <Irfan> agenda?
18:01:28 <MichaelC> present+
18:01:35 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
18:01:41 <myasonik> myasonik has joined #aria
18:02:22 <sarah_higley> sarah_higley has joined #aria
18:02:25 <carmacleod> carmacleod has joined #aria
18:02:32 <carmacleod> present+
18:02:44 <sarah_higley> present+
18:02:46 <chlane> scribe: chlane
18:03:28 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
18:03:55 <melsumner> present+
18:04:18 <scotto> present+
18:04:19 <aaronlev> aaronlev has joined #aria
18:04:54 <chlane> zakim, next item
18:04:54 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3JiPM8a -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:05:49 <chlane> definition of navigation,
18:06:24 <siri> siri has joined #aria
18:06:28 <chlane> jamesn: don't think we should define it
18:06:47 <chlane> someone else should define it like the HTML spec
18:07:02 <chlane> melsumner: seconds that define at base level
18:07:43 <chlane> navigate is defined in app history api and html standard, session history and navigation
18:07:53 <chlane> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/history.html#history
18:08:53 <chlane> jamesn: leave open, not define in aria
18:09:10 <chlane> 1.4
18:09:19 <chlane> zakim, next item
18:09:19 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3rE2mZs -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:10:16 <chlane> #148m
18:10:53 <chlane> scott: label should behave the same as labelledby
18:11:09 <chlane> jamesn:accname issue?
18:11:27 <chlane> html aam doesn't devolve to accname without label or labelledby
18:11:44 <chlane> scott accname computation is not lang specific
18:11:57 <spectranaut> present+ valerie_young
18:12:14 <chlane> scott: add to html aam, a note for hidden sources
18:12:47 <chlane> aaronlev: draft PR to look at
18:12:55 <chlane> aaronlev: for hidden stuff
18:13:14 <chlane> changeing license, no review needed
18:13:37 <chlane> 1690 PR mel and Jamesn
18:13:48 <chlane> zakim, next item
18:13:48 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> 1.3 blocking issues https://bit.ly/35V7G25 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:14:47 <chlane> 1159, mel has it
18:15:05 <chlane> 1177 jamesn pinging in issue
18:15:15 <chlane> 1365
18:15:23 <chlane> jamesn: up for review
18:15:37 <chlane> zakim, next item
18:15:37 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:16:30 <chlane> no dd next week or the 24th jamesn on vaca
18:16:34 <chlane> zakim, next item
18:16:34 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, chlane
18:16:47 <chlane> zakim, close this item
18:16:47 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
18:16:48 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:16:48 <Zakim> 5. -> Announcement - Minutes Archive https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/minutes [from agendabot]
18:16:53 <chlane> zakim, next item
18:16:53 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Announcement - Minutes Archive https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/minutes -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:17:26 <chlane> jamesn: patchy
18:17:33 <harris> harris has joined #aria
18:17:41 <harris> present+
18:17:51 <chlane> partially a warning that these minutes will be google searchable
18:18:03 <chlane> people will finding old minutes more often
18:18:48 <chlane> scott: promies a shirt
18:19:02 <chlane> to Michael
18:19:18 <chlane> scott: Roberto has joined welcome
18:23:20 <chlane> siri works at apple lol by irfan
18:23:53 <chlane> we won't say hey siri
18:24:03 <chlane> zakim, next item
18:24:03 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- TPAC 2022 - Who might attend in person? Vancouver from 12 to 16 September 2022. Non-binding straw poll? -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:24:34 <chlane> hybrid in person remote meeting
18:24:42 <chlane> how many would come to vancouver
18:24:45 <chlane> ?
18:25:37 <chlane> folk are in favor of meeting and attending
18:25:55 <chlane> some won't be able to travel, facilitate remote participation
18:26:18 <chlane> jamesn: webaccessibility slack channel?
18:26:51 <chlane> wcag slack channel is free plan not archived
18:27:20 <chlane> web-a11y.slack.com
18:27:31 <chlane> have to be invited, thousands on it
18:27:49 <chlane> jamesn: can send one around, we have enough people to do it
18:28:22 <chlane> lol
18:28:47 <chlane> scott will bring tshirts, more than a feeling
18:29:09 <chlane> orgs should pay expenses
18:29:41 <chlane> micheal: diversity fund, targeted to invited experts with no sponsors
18:29:54 <chlane> contact micheal cooper
18:31:15 <chlane> zakim, next item
18:31:15 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- Charter Update? -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:31:30 <chlane> new charter, recently joined have to rejoin
18:32:03 <chlane> we are kicked off, sign up again, once every 2 or 3 years, new patent policy
18:32:11 <chlane> march 10th is the deadline
18:32:44 <chlane> AC rep should do it
18:33:25 <chlane> AC rep has to rejoin for you
18:33:44 <chlane> they have to agree to new patent policy
18:34:17 <chlane> joanne: expedite recommendation status?
18:34:26 <chlane> MichaelC: updated CR
18:34:37 <chlane> recommendation snapshot every 2 years
18:34:44 <chlane> move aams to that status
18:35:01 <chlane> do snapshot when we have everything that supports base version
18:35:16 <chlane> jamesn: more people doing implementation and testing
18:35:32 <chlane> we have joannie and valerie
18:36:06 <chlane> zakim, next item
18:36:06 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- -> Handling Author Errors: form & region roles https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1683 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:36:35 <chlane> scotto: Sarahs point in review,
18:36:46 <chlane> regions not announced as such without names
18:36:55 <chlane> this happens in html
18:37:17 <chlane> sara found role was announced without name
18:37:34 <chlane> good idea to have parity to html
18:37:39 <chlane> but aria is more specific
18:38:08 <chlane> joanie: 1.1 - 1.2 changed spec to say authors must provide a name
18:38:18 <chlane> user agents need a backup plan
18:38:28 <chlane> best way is to not make it a landmark
18:38:39 <chlane> like html
18:38:41 <chlane> contention
18:38:56 <chlane> form doesn't want to be generic if it is not a landmark
18:39:28 <chlane> choices - landmark, generic, something in between
18:39:33 <chlane> "this is a form"
18:39:44 <chlane> "tell me all the things in this form"
18:40:05 <chlane> IA2 role landmark
18:40:19 <carmacleod> https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/100
18:40:34 <carmacleod> Should form-with-name map to IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK?
18:41:19 <chlane> issue for both core aam and html-aam
18:41:41 <chlane> need several people to look at this mappings table
18:41:45 <chlane> will provide Pr
18:41:57 <aaronlev> Chrome/IA2 exposes <form> without name as IA2_ROLE_SECTION, and with name as IA2_ROLE_FORM
18:41:59 <chlane> and issue
18:41:59 <aaronlev> https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:content/test/data/accessibility/html/form-expected-win.txt?q=form-expected-win&ss=chromium
18:42:47 <chlane> Matt: screen readers would ignore it
18:42:59 <chlane> if role=form has an effect
18:43:03 <chlane> any at all
18:43:15 <chlane> author is expressing intent
18:43:33 <chlane> Matt: can't imagine why we would tell an author to do that
18:44:03 <chlane> Joanne: give it a name when using role=form
18:44:06 <siri> like for section element give a name to announce as region
18:44:11 <chlane> jamesn: larger issue
18:44:31 <chlane> tackle in parrallel with the one Scott put on the agenda
18:44:56 <chlane> joanie: James Craig, I am unsure of apple mappings
18:45:11 <chlane> jamesn: directon of this?
18:45:48 <chlane> a div with role=form should be exposed as if it was not there
18:46:03 <aaronlev> You can see how Chrome maps nameless and named forms to all platforms here:
18:46:07 <aaronlev> https://source.chromium.org/search?q=%2Fform-expected-&ss=chromium
18:46:18 <aaronlev> The first form is nameless, the second one has a name
18:46:19 <chlane> siri: main element, nav element AT exposes
18:46:33 <chlane> <form>should expose it
18:46:54 <chlane> jamesn: just expose an unnamed form?
18:47:08 <chlane> matt: but not as a landmark region
18:47:14 <chlane> jamesn: why not
18:47:15 <chlane> ?
18:47:37 <chlane> Matt: region not exposes as a region without a name
18:47:52 <chlane> matt: creates unintentional landmarks
18:47:57 <chlane> big problem
18:48:36 <chlane> carmacleod: github forms are goofy
18:48:46 <chlane> form elements
18:49:08 <chlane> scotto:they are form elements with names
18:49:19 <chlane> jamesn: coding problem
18:49:36 <chlane> Matt: if we have naming requirement
18:49:49 <chlane> no name then not a landmark
18:49:52 <melsumner> q+
18:50:01 <chlane> scott did it for html forms
18:50:27 <chlane> form element is not exposed as a landmark unless it is named
18:51:01 <chlane> Roberto: landmark element with role=region?
18:51:12 <chlane> region is just one of the landmark roles
18:51:15 <chlane> there are 7
18:51:38 <chlane> native landmarks don't require namesw!
18:51:57 <chlane> siri html doesn't have section element
18:52:01 <jamesn> q?
18:52:16 <chlane> siri: agrees no need to have name
18:52:39 <chlane> names will be helpful
18:52:44 <chlane> with many forms
18:53:15 <chlane> melsumner: forms never seen div role=form
18:53:20 <chlane> has anyone seen that?
18:53:35 <chlane> need more info, method action, other stuff
18:53:55 <chlane> how do you get values to the backend
18:54:04 <melsumner> q-
18:54:06 <chlane> should be allowd to fail
18:54:20 <chlane> Harris: benefit to using <form> for enter key submission
18:54:28 <chlane> Sarah has seen this
18:54:36 <chlane> legacy code
18:54:43 <chlane> Robert, in AEM
18:55:00 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
18:55:09 <chlane> scotto: use most appropriate landmark
18:55:17 <Matt_King> present+
18:55:18 <Matt_King> q?
18:55:22 <chlane> jamesn: there are other things than just form elements on the page
18:55:24 <melsumner> for clarity, I advocate for this scenario being allowed to fail because the author is failing on multiple levels here
18:55:24 <siri> Present +
18:56:49 <chlane> jcraig:
18:57:18 <chlane> do we need to map this doen'st look like it looking for guidance
18:58:02 <chlane> matt: div role=form no name to role=generic
18:58:03 <chlane> ?
18:58:17 <chlane> jamesn: role=form map to navigation with no name
18:58:35 <chlane> carmacleod: form is the only role that matters
18:58:49 <chlane> carmacleod: maps to native element that is form
18:59:47 <chlane> map to whatever the base html element if role=form is not there?
19:00:25 <chlane> jcraig: fallback roles
19:00:29 <chlane> account for in PR
19:00:39 <chlane> Jamie had a strong opinion
19:00:55 <chlane> carmacleod: needs help on this
19:01:00 <siri> Why to use role=form why can't we role=none if it is generic
19:01:18 <chlane> zakim, make minutes
19:01:18 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', chlane
19:01:41 <chlane> rrsagent make minutes
19:01:53 <chlane> rrsagent, make minutes
19:01:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/10-aria-minutes.html chlane