17:54:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:54:31 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/02/03-aria-irc
17:54:34 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:54:35 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:54:36 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
17:54:44 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
17:54:51 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:54:51 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:54:53 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/1d223877-730c-446f-bfa9-2e9222902112/20220203T130000
17:54:53 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:54:53 <agendabot> agenda+ New Issue Triage
17:54:53 <agendabot> agenda+ New PR Triage
17:54:54 <agendabot> agenda+ Deep Dive planning
17:54:56 <agendabot> agenda+ Figure out what to do with the DPUB mappings overlap with the ARIA Core spec, in the context of newer implementation differences
17:54:59 <agendabot> agenda+ Is this proposal overcome by events?: Updated spec text to reflect the processing of hidden elements when c…
17:55:02 <agendabot> agenda+ Any updates?: Prohibit rowcount and rowindex on rows in treegrid and prohibit posinset and setsize on rows in tables and grids
17:55:06 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Updates?: When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description?
17:55:09 <agendabot> agenda+ Do we have any decisions?: Clarify usage of aria-haspopup
17:55:11 <agendabot> agenda+ Initial aria-textseparation (depends on generic PR being merged)
17:55:14 <agendabot> agenda+ 1.3 Blocking issues
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18:01:36 <pkra> present+
18:01:52 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
18:02:02 <StefanS> present+
18:02:04 <jamesn> present+
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18:02:23 <chlane> scribe:chlane
18:02:47 <chlane> take up agendum 1
18:03:02 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
18:03:04 <spectranaut> present+ valerie young
18:03:11 <scotto> present+
18:03:31 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/1d223877-730c-446f-bfa9-2e9222902112/20220203T130000
18:03:44 <jamesn> https://bit.ly/3ARvtLJ
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18:04:39 <chlane> should i run it now?
18:04:39 <Jem> present+
18:04:42 <chlane> or wait
18:04:58 <zheng_xu> present+
18:05:03 <Jem> present+ Jemma
18:05:05 <dcaro> dcaro has joined #aria
18:05:19 <Jem> agenda?
18:05:33 <chlane> #1689 assigned to 1.4
18:05:48 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:05:48 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- New PR Triage -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:05:49 <jamesn> https://bit.ly/3s6LYzD
18:06:16 <MarkMcCarthy> regrets+ Joanie
18:06:34 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/pull/107
18:07:05 <chlane> #107 ready to merge no disagreements
18:07:15 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:07:15 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Deep Dive planning -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:07:24 <jamesn> https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
18:08:07 <MarkMcCarthy> present+ BryanGaraventa
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18:08:20 <sarah_higley> present+
18:08:55 <chlane> no deep dive chosen , no dd on 2/24 may or may not be a meeting will need a chair
18:08:59 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:08:59 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Figure out what to do with the DPUB mappings overlap with the ARIA Core spec, in the context of newer implementation differences -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:09:10 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1643
18:10:24 <chlane> James Craig added updates, James should probabably wait for dpub triage before we do anything else
18:11:20 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:11:20 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Is this proposal overcome by events?: Updated spec text to reflect the processing of hidden elements when c… -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:12:08 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/137
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18:12:46 <carmacleod> present+
18:14:29 <pkra> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57
18:14:49 <pkra> https://github.com/jaragunde/accname/pull/1
18:15:55 <chlane> alex impossible to hide sub sub trees, so once you point to a hidden subtree all nodes would be read
18:16:27 <chlane> aria-hidden could mean don't use that part of the subtree
18:16:51 <chlane> they are leaning towards just removing those nodes with JS
18:17:01 <chlane> clarity for spec is more important
18:17:28 <chlane> James should close #137 as a non starter
18:17:55 <siri> siri has joined #aria
18:18:05 <Jem> as far as it is simper and easy to understand, I strongly support!
18:18:22 <chlane> Bryan is happy as long as there is agreement
18:19:20 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:19:20 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Any updates?: Prohibit rowcount and rowindex on rows in treegrid and prohibit posinset and setsize on rows in tables and grids -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:19:23 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1303
18:21:07 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1442
18:22:12 <chlane> remove it from agenda we agreed
18:23:00 <chlane> we are going to focus on secondary actions first
18:23:15 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:23:15 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- Any Updates?: When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description? -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:23:46 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:23:46 <Zakim> agendum 7 was just opened, chlane
18:24:00 <chlane> close agendum 7
18:24:05 <chlane> zakim, next agendum
18:24:05 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- Do we have any decisions?: Clarify usage of aria-haspopup -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:24:27 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1024
18:25:00 <chlane> Scott, our last talk he put notes on the 2 directions
18:25:25 <chlane> returning to true/false or true/false/menu/generic name
18:25:43 <chlane> more discussion has occcured on the thread since
18:25:55 <chlane> why keep the attribute?
18:26:09 <chlane> keep it for backwards compatibility
18:26:22 <StefanS> q+
18:26:37 <chlane> knowing something is going to popup is not important on the invoking element
18:26:48 <chlane> bryan, we do needed for menutitem
18:27:04 <chlane> to indicate subroles
18:27:50 <chlane> Scott the attribute doesn't make sense on any other element
18:28:12 <chlane> stefan, dialog grids, why should these be declared?
18:28:43 <chlane> Scott, there could be an endless number of UI token values
18:29:10 <chlane> describing everything that could be popped up is untenable
18:29:58 <chlane> stefan, aria-haspopup could take and ID ref value
18:30:30 <chlane> Scott, element might not be in the Dom breaking the Id ref
18:30:52 <chlane> James if there is a visual indication that something will popup
18:31:08 <chlane> shouldn't we have something in ARIA for that purpose
18:31:15 <chlane> Bryan is in favor
18:31:31 <Jem> if there is no visual indication of control, it will be the violation of wcag 2.2 visible control.
18:31:47 <chlane> bryan finds a lot of controls with attached menus
18:32:09 <chlane> he believes it should support attached interactive roles
18:32:24 <StefanS> q-
18:32:33 <chlane> if you don't have it, users will not know anything is present
18:33:29 <chlane> siri aria-haspopup should indicate what is being opened
18:33:43 <chlane> scott disagrees
18:33:59 <chlane> Matt wonders why he needs information that others don't get
18:34:39 <chlane> Scott, do we think there is value informing users somehting has popped up at the control level
18:36:11 <chlane> Scott, front load that info or let them know what will occurt
18:37:04 <chlane> James thinks the interction should be defined by the thing that was opened rather then the trigger
18:37:23 <chlane> bryan, the menu button changes behavior
18:37:26 <jamesn> regrets+ CurtBellew JoanieDiggs
18:37:40 <chlane> sighted user expects menu style focus managment
18:37:48 <chlane> after activating a menu button
18:37:57 <chlane> move focus to the first menu item
18:38:29 <chlane> but when that doesn't happen, if they have to press the down arrow for the first item
18:38:46 <chlane> aria-haspopup is needed for jaws
18:39:05 <chlane> james mentioned nvda which doesn't do that
18:39:24 <chlane> matt, there is a role for menubuton in windows
18:39:40 <chlane> in aria 1.0 we used a property rather than a role
18:40:38 <chlane> James if all menubuttons were announced as buttons
18:41:14 <chlane> cyn and james windows users may be confused
18:41:38 <chlane> james macos reads as popup button
18:41:44 <Jem> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.2/examples/menu-button/menu-button-links.html
18:42:01 <chlane> matt html select on mac feels like menu
18:42:19 <chlane> but on windows if feels like a combobox
18:43:00 <chlane> james/matt macos windows different select behaviors
18:44:02 <chlane> James, deep dive, Bryan JS discuss mixins, additive roles, something can be a "link and a heading"
18:44:13 <chlane> altenative to ARIA
18:44:45 <chlane> Matt, mentioned control pattens in UIA
18:44:50 <chlane> similar to iO
18:44:54 <chlane> iO
18:44:56 <chlane> s
18:45:29 <chlane> matt, decision? deprecate specific values
18:45:50 <chlane> James specific values don't do any good and are not supported
18:45:52 <Jem> agenda?
18:46:08 <chlane> stefan, why were they invented?
18:46:30 <chlane> due to combobox 1.1
18:47:09 <chlane> Bryan, Rich was in favor of token system
18:47:34 <chlane> James, PR to remove values
18:48:03 <chlane> Scott, does not solve the issue of notifiying users of rendered UI
18:48:05 <Jem> +1 to scott
18:48:16 <chlane> and it will dismiss on you if you leave it
18:48:17 <jcraig> somewhat related to this discussion of ARIA's rigidity, Brian Kardell from Igalia wanted to discuss mixin roles, effectively additive roles (something can be both a "link" and a "heading") which would match the iOS Accessibility API pretty well... any combination of traits.
18:48:39 <chlane> James overloading popup is a bad idea
18:48:45 <jcraig> s/somewhat related to this discussion of ARIA's rigidity, Brian Kardell from Igalia wanted to discuss mixin roles, effectively additive roles (something can be both a "link" and a "heading") which would match the iOS Accessibility API pretty well... any combination of traits./[accidental edit]/
18:48:50 <chlane> matt, make a separate issue
18:49:16 <chlane> scott, anything can be a popup
18:49:43 <jcraig> s/James, deep dive, Bryan JS discuss mixins, additive roles, something can be a "link and a heading"/jcraig: deep dive topic somewhat related to this discussion of ARIA's rigidity, Brian Kardell from Igalia wanted to discuss mixin roles, effectively additive roles (something can be both a "link" and a "heading") which would match the iOS Accessibility API pretty well... any combination of traits.
18:49:43 <chlane> people are implementing things that dismmiss in different ways
18:49:52 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:49:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/03-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:51:00 <chlane> stefan, how should screen readers announce it?
18:51:13 <chlane> matt stay with historical precedent
18:51:34 <chlane> add a menubutton role and get rid of aria-haspopu
18:51:51 <jcraig> q+
18:52:05 <chlane> stefan it is needed , many wierd designs
18:52:42 <chlane> james rejects removing aria-haspopup, mentions popovers speech bubble UI
18:52:55 <chlane> they don't limit popups to menus
18:53:41 <chlane> James, sighted users know something is going to show up via discovery
18:54:33 <chlane> james chevrons in zoom could mean popup
18:54:54 <chlane> but there are no visual distinction
18:55:20 <chlane> matt, forum in ARIA At
18:55:53 <chlane> james , can we get a PR that puts aria-haspopup in a better state
18:56:11 <chlane> Scott and Matt will work on it
18:57:14 <chlane> Carolyn, true/false/menu if the value outside those values is true
18:57:32 <chlane> but dialogs should be false
18:57:52 <chlane> listbox,tree.grid, not used
18:58:37 <Jem> I found this aria-popup discussion is very helpful. thanks, everyone.
18:58:49 <chlane> bryan is in favor of combobox evaluating to true
18:59:19 <chlane> rrsagent, make log public
18:59:43 <chlane> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:59:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/03-aria-minutes.html chlane
18:59:56 <Jem> agenda?
19:00:03 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/labels/1.3-Blocking
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