IRC log of rqtf on 2022-02-02

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13:44:43 [trackbot]

Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference

13:44:43 [trackbot]

Date: 02 February 2022

13:44:56 [jasonjgw]

chair: jasonjgw

13:44:58 [jasonjgw]

present+

13:45:00 [jasonjgw]

agenda+ Inaccessibility of CAPTCHA.

13:45:00 [jasonjgw]

agenda+ Synchronization Accessibility User Requirements.

13:45:00 [jasonjgw]

agenda+ Accessibility of Remote Meetings.

13:45:00 [jasonjgw]

agenda+ Natural Language Interface Accessibility User Requirements.

13:45:05 [jasonjgw]

agenda+ Miscellaneous topics.

13:45:13 [jasonjgw]

zakim, list agenda

13:45:13 [Zakim]

I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:

13:45:14 [Zakim]

1. Inaccessibility of CAPTCHA. [from jasonjgw]

13:45:14 [Zakim]

2. Synchronization Accessibility User Requirements. [from jasonjgw]

13:45:14 [Zakim]

3. Accessibility of Remote Meetings. [from jasonjgw]

13:45:14 [Zakim]

4. Natural Language Interface Accessibility User Requirements. [from jasonjgw]

13:45:14 [Zakim]

5. Miscellaneous topics. [from jasonjgw]

13:57:51 [janina]

present+

14:00:52 [Joshue108]

present+

14:01:49 [Joshue108]

scribe: Joshue108

14:01:54 [jasonjgw]

zakim, next item

14:01:54 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- Inaccessibility of CAPTCHA. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]

14:02:13 [Joshue108]

JS: We should monitor email - Raja missed some Zoom last week

14:02:33 [SteveNoble]

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14:02:50 [SteveNoble]

present+

14:03:20 [Joshue108]

JW: A few changes since last week

14:03:28 [Joshue108]

We have dealt with some issues..

14:03:58 [Joshue108]

Google CAPTHA etc, and Rajas comment about voice recognition as a problematic biometric for humanity (checking)

14:04:11 [Joshue108]

I'll add a ref to the biometrics section

14:04:28 [Joshue108]

The others are about fixed characteristics mostly

14:04:43 [Joshue108]

I've added these with a PR, ready to merge

14:05:00 [Joshue108]

Also trust tokens, with a request for clarification. Questions?

14:05:15 [Joshue108]

JS: Lionel and I spent a good bit of time on Issue 16.

14:05:25 [Joshue108]

It is not so clear, so we asked for clarification.

14:05:50 [Joshue108]

We are happy to get feedback from Security/Privacy

14:06:07 [Joshue108]

From geospatial community - but the relationships need to be cleared up

14:06:25 [Joshue108]

JS: Lets just merge them, and we do an editorial pass

14:06:44 [Joshue108]

JS: Any opposition to merging them?

14:06:49 [Joshue108]

SN: None from me

14:07:01 [Joshue108]

JW: Could do that today.

14:07:08 [Joshue108]

JS: We can reopen if needed.

14:07:48 [Joshue108]

JW: I found new CAPTCHA issues, and moved them to the new repo

14:08:29 [Joshue108]

Anything else to be aware of?

14:08:50 [Joshue108]

JS: Notes that Raja is here - and we applied your edit to the CAPTCHA doc FYI

14:09:09 [jasonjgw]

zakim, next item

14:09:09 [Zakim]

agendum 2 -- Synchronization Accessibility User Requirements. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]

14:09:28 [Joshue108]

JW: Over to Steve.

14:09:48 [Joshue108]

SN: Thanks to Josh for help with Github during the week

14:10:01 [Joshue108]

It was confusing, but I'm clearer now

14:10:17 [Joshue108]

SN: I've got some new edits, and understand the process better

14:10:35 [Joshue108]

Some other things came up, so I've not gotten to them yet.

14:10:53 [Joshue108]

Hope to do that soon

14:11:19 [Joshue108]

SN: There are 4 issues for SAUR 268, reforming of biblio is done

14:11:20 [Lionel_Wolberger]

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14:11:28 [Joshue108]

There is an open PR, waiting to get merged

14:11:42 [Raja]

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14:11:42 [Lionel_Wolberger]

present+

14:11:50 [Joshue108]

248, a la caption sync from Nigel is ready to go

14:12:04 [Lionel_Wolberger]

agenda?

14:12:33 [Joshue108]

247. The SAUR subtitle rate issue by James Sandford - I've got most of that ready

14:12:48 [Joshue108]

The characterisation needed to be changed

14:13:26 [Joshue108]

The last one 211 - Question about Sync related needs in XR environments

14:13:37 [Joshue108]

We had some questions

14:14:00 [Joshue108]

JS: Josh did the outreach, but no feedback yet. To be expected, as this stuff is new

14:14:35 [Joshue108]

RK: Where I see the list of docs..

14:14:43 [Joshue108]

Regarding the Sync with Captioning..

14:14:57 [Joshue108]

We are starting some research with the captioning on TV/2D

14:15:17 [Joshue108]

The 3D VR is new - and there are some definite changes - it is evidence based, not widely used.

14:15:23 [Joshue108]

Do we want to put that down now?

14:15:40 [Joshue108]

JS: Is there a difference Raja regarding sync in 3D?

14:15:49 [Joshue108]

RK: Directly, no

14:16:06 [Joshue108]

But as the view is so wide (360) that may impact sync

14:16:18 [Joshue108]

how that is measured has not been figured out.

14:16:45 [Joshue108]

JS: There may be a need for captions to remain on screen longer in XR environments

14:16:56 [Joshue108]

RK: Right

14:17:28 [Joshue108]

RK: To add to the depth time, it is X,Y,Z - so there is a time frame needed for your eyes to adjust and focus

14:17:40 [Joshue108]

You could say it is something that is being considered

14:18:09 [Lionel_Wolberger]

q?

14:18:14 [Joshue108]

JW: We can add something and update if evidence comes forward.

14:18:37 [Joshue108]

SN: Sounds good. I will ask Raja and others to review and comment

14:18:59 [Joshue108]

JW: So we are not far away from publication.

14:19:36 [Joshue108]

SN: Yes - the only other question is other docs have section that shows contributors - is that a common thing. Should we have a section like that?

14:19:46 [Joshue108]

q?

14:20:26 [Joshue108]

ack me

14:20:26 [jasonjgw]

Josh: notes that we do acknowledge work done in developing a document, and we should make sure we're satisfied with the list of acknowledgments.

14:20:51 [Joshue108]

JS: Yes, XR is a hot topic and we should touch on it. I would keep it terse.

14:21:22 [Joshue108]

As some tech things can fizzle out - Xforms, MS Reader etc

14:21:45 [Joshue108]

Things that seem certain turn out not to be - so we want this to have longevity

14:22:05 [Lionel_Wolberger]

+1 to acknowledging possible technological developments, but don't overburden it

14:22:14 [Joshue108]

RK: The other word is human constant - but it changing. Tech is. So lets focus on the human part.

14:22:22 [Joshue108]

JS: That makes a lot of sense

14:22:59 [Joshue108]

LW: Says hello

14:23:11 [Joshue108]

JW: Do you want to circle back to CAPTCHA?

14:23:27 [Joshue108]

SN: WFM

14:23:38 [Joshue108]

zakim, take up item 1

14:23:38 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- Inaccessibility of CAPTCHA. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]

14:24:02 [Joshue108]

JW: <Gets Lionel up to speed>

14:24:27 [Joshue108]

JS: I did mention our issue 16 and the clarification request.

14:24:38 [Joshue108]

LW: We did get a reply - ambiguous

14:24:39 [Lionel_Wolberger]

@lwolberg I'm not sure, many issues in the Trust Tokens API repository mention CAPTCHA. Though I think WICG/trust-token-api#88 can be considered the umbrella issue. I haven't familiarized myself with trust tokens, my personal interest lies in the "UA-driven" aspect of it.

14:25:56 [Joshue108]

JS: That refers to the Web Incubation Community Group

14:27:20 [Joshue108]

LW: <Discusses tokens>

14:28:59 [Joshue108]

We can continue and maybe open dialog with IP in trust token API discussion via Malvoz

14:29:10 [Joshue108]

LW: Does that sound right a la killing CAPTCHA?

14:29:12 [Joshue108]

JS: Yes

14:29:31 [Joshue108]

LW: We did have a good working session, Janina and I - we need a little more time.

14:29:53 [Joshue108]

Proving that you are a human, and not necessarily that you control some token, is what we want to do.

14:30:10 [Joshue108]

And the relationship to human cognition.

14:31:09 [Joshue108]

JW: Sounds right -<discussed use case a la tokens and the process of validating humanity via token authenticity >

14:31:55 [Joshue108]

JS: The assumption works that x trusts y (x, y === being human)

14:32:36 [Joshue108]

LW: Concurs - this is a well trod path, but there are often no conclusions

14:32:42 [Joshue108]

<Discusses the chain of trust>

14:32:56 [Joshue108]

a la SSL (now TLS)

14:33:31 [Joshue108]

<Certifiying agent => Registering agent ==> to each person (but there is a burden)>

14:34:09 [Joshue108]

#chainOfTrust (element.upGrade());

14:34:25 [Joshue108]

LW: Needs an advocacy group - and there is a burden of proof.

14:34:42 [Joshue108]

Certain criteria need to be met to get them

14:35:15 [Joshue108]

JS: Points to Biometrics, then downstream the applications trust the issuer/tokens but do not get more than that.

14:35:46 [Joshue108]

Could be like what Cloudflare are proposing. Security experts can thing about it.

14:36:06 [Joshue108]

JW: Trust is an issue

14:37:06 [Joshue108]

LW: Agrees with the chain of trust example

14:37:25 [Joshue108]

These are authentications via control of informational attributes

14:37:32 [Joshue108]

So we need to think through this.

14:38:05 [Joshue108]

LW: Logging in with service x, causes monopoly and control issues.

14:39:18 [Joshue108]

JW: The Cloudflare proposal is interesting - using a registration element to use Biometrics, or features of the authentication device - which is a deferral of trust.

14:39:42 [Joshue108]

Subject to similar issues but doesn't disclose identity.

14:39:57 [Joshue108]

JW: Am interesting in more analysis.

14:40:26 [Joshue108]

LW: To be practical, the sub commitee with review the Trust token thread and the Cloudflare discussion.

14:40:42 [Joshue108]

Regarding a Biometric, they can be replayed.

14:41:03 [Joshue108]

Proving that you have access to human cognition is weak, and not a real Turing test.

14:41:30 [Joshue108]

Proving biology, means that you are human but in practice is not a simple answer to the problem.

14:41:57 [Joshue108]

q?

14:42:15 [Joshue108]

LW: <Discusses patterns of usage >

14:43:27 [Joshue108]

Robots are repetitive - AI patterns are advancing, Cloudflare etc are looking at patterns of usage - that current auth cannot do.

14:43:33 [Joshue108]

JW: Comments?

14:44:03 [Joshue108]

JW: Lionel raises all the right questions.

14:44:14 [Joshue108]

LW: Its good to talk about this.

14:44:59 [Joshue108]

Diff between proof of humanity, vs control of a token - which will not be enough for CAPTCHA.

14:45:38 [Joshue108]

agenda?

14:46:04 [Joshue108]

zakim, take up item 5

14:46:06 [Zakim]

agendum 5 -- Miscellaneous topics. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]

14:46:10 [Joshue108]

zakim, take up item 4

14:46:10 [Zakim]

agendum 4 -- Natural Language Interface Accessibility User Requirements. -- taken up [from jasonjgw]

14:46:11 [Lionel_Wolberger]

Lionel says to Joshue108, I have my actions regarding CAPTCHA so I will drop or now. Thank you all for cycling back to the agenda item.

14:46:18 [janina]

scribe: janina

14:46:56 [janina]

jgw: Notes we've been working through issues ...

14:47:17 [janina]

Joshue108: First the ones related to requirements ...

14:47:22 [Joshue108]

[COGA] 2.5 Visually displayed text #277

14:47:27 [janina]

Joshue108: Issue 277 visually display ed text

14:47:30 [Joshue108]

https://github.com/w3c/apa/issues/277

14:47:56 [janina]

Joshue108: suggested new need; to support TTS for any visual output

14:48:13 [Joshue108]

JS: Should every device do that?

14:48:48 [Joshue108]

There should be room for devices that meet some but not all user needs

14:49:08 [Joshue108]

Should be presented in a way that content can be tailored to the user

14:49:29 [janina]

janina: suggests no, not every device need support every functional need

14:49:38 [janina]

jgw: example my headphones needn't support visual

14:49:51 [janina]

Joshue108: anyone think this a good idea?

14:50:10 [janina]

jgw: we need interop at the app layer, not device layer

14:51:31 [janina]

RESOLUTION: group denies this one

14:51:37 [Joshue108]

[COGA] 2.4 Speech Recognition and Speech Production #276

14:51:47 [Joshue108]

https://github.com/w3c/apa/issues/276

14:51:50 [janina]

subtopic: speech recognition speech production

14:52:19 [janina]

Joshue108: mostly editorial ...

14:53:08 [janina]

Joshue108: insure system can recognize atypical speech accurately, even without training

14:54:30 [Joshue108]

JS: How can this be required?

14:54:44 [Joshue108]

You don't put out a device until it (does what)?

14:54:59 [Joshue108]

The industry does pay attention but how do you quantify it?

14:55:02 [janina]

janina: how to quantify?

14:55:08 [Joshue108]

JS: The user need is documented.

14:55:28 [janina]

jgw: user need is documented, but how well to satisfy with current tech? known solutions to known tech?

14:55:46 [janina]

jgw: long list of examples? probably not? perhaps a short sentence or two

14:55:48 [janina]

+1

14:56:48 [janina]

jgw: notes an atia presentation from google on enhancing their reco tech for persons with speech disabilities; there is work in this area

14:57:27 [janina]

janina: suggests hyperlink

14:57:38 [janina]

jgw: published research? would be good

14:57:43 [Joshue108]

JOC: They do reference Googles Project Euphonia

14:57:49 [Joshue108]

It would be good to include.

14:57:51 [janina]

Joshue108: Project Euphonia

14:58:05 [janina]

jgw: will look for ref

15:00:42 [janina]

josh: rest is editorial

15:01:08 [jasonjgw]

zakim, bye

15:01:08 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #rqtf

15:01:09 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees have been jasonjgw, janina, Joshue, SteveNoble, Lionel_Wolberger

15:01:13 [jasonjgw]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:01:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/02/02-rqtf-minutes.html jasonjgw

15:03:52 [Joshue108]

https://rajivmalhotra.com/books/aiandpower/

15:04:34 [Joshue108]

https://www.aiandpower.com