IRC log of i18n on 2022-01-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:39:38 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:39:38 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/01/20-i18n-irc
14:39:48 [addison]
trackbot, prepare teleconference
14:39:51 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:39:54 [trackbot]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:39:54 [trackbot]
Date: 20 January 2022
14:39:57 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/baf262b7-7551-4c04-96a0-662d85c35505/20220120T150000
14:39:57 [agendabot]
clear agenda
14:39:57 [agendabot]
agenda+ Agenda Review
14:39:57 [agendabot]
agenda+ Action Items
14:39:59 [agendabot]
agenda+ Info Share
14:40:01 [agendabot]
agenda+ RADAR Review
14:40:03 [agendabot]
agenda+ String-Meta
14:40:06 [agendabot]
agenda+ Radar Assignments
14:40:08 [agendabot]
agenda+ AOB?
14:40:41 [addison]
agenda+ commit updates to specdev
14:40:51 [addison]
Chair: Addison Phillips
14:40:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/20-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:53:49 [addison]
present+
15:01:17 [nordzilla]
nordzilla has joined #i18n
15:01:26 [addison]
present+ Richard, Eemeli Aro, Atsushi, Erik Nordin
15:01:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/20-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:02:17 [addison]
present+ Bert
15:02:41 [Bert]
scribe: Bert
15:04:50 [Bert]
addison: Our W3C calendar needs editing. Seems difficult to just extend the dates... I may have to send feature requests. :-)
15:05:05 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 1
15:05:05 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:05:06 [addison]
agenda?
15:05:35 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 2
15:05:35 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:05:40 [eemeli]
eemeli has joined #i18n
15:05:45 [addison]
https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
15:06:17 [Bert]
action-1094?
15:06:18 [trackbot]
action-1094 -- Addison Phillips to Start conversation with ecma-402 et al about webidl work -- due 2021-11-11 -- OPEN
15:06:18 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1094
15:06:39 [Bert]
addison: Will get explainer done this week.
15:06:47 [Bert]
action-1097?
15:06:47 [trackbot]
action-1097 -- Addison Phillips to Codify epub's character restrictions as guidance for specdev -- due 2021-11-25 -- OPEN
15:06:47 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1097
15:06:53 [addison]
close action-1097
15:06:53 [trackbot]
Closed action-1097.
15:06:55 [Bert]
addison: On agenda for later.
15:07:00 [Bert]
action-1098?
15:07:00 [trackbot]
action-1098 -- Richard Ishida to Review lang-bidi-use-cases for clarity of use cases of specific override -- due 2021-11-25 -- OPEN
15:07:00 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1098
15:07:10 [David]
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15:07:25 [Bert]
r12a: Not done, will look over next week.
15:07:32 [Bert]
action-1100?
15:07:32 [trackbot]
action-1100 -- Addison Phillips to Move and close unassigned with support from r12a -- due 2021-11-25 -- OPEN
15:07:32 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1100
15:07:56 [David]
zakim present+
15:08:08 [David]
present+
15:08:18 [Bert]
addison: Only thing left seems to close items under "awaiting comment resoluttion"
15:08:26 [addison]
close action-1100
15:08:26 [trackbot]
Closed action-1100.
15:08:43 [Bert]
... Maybe need actions for shepherds to close their own itmes,
15:08:50 [addison]
action: addison: remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions
15:08:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1109 - Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions [on Addison Phillips - due 2022-01-27].
15:08:56 [Bert]
s/itmes/items./
15:09:00 [Bert]
action-1103?
15:09:00 [trackbot]
action-1103 -- Addison Phillips to File issue with tag to discuss fate of lang/dir metadata and prepare explainer -- due 2021-12-09 -- OPEN
15:09:01 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1103
15:09:08 [Bert]
action-1104?
15:09:08 [trackbot]
action-1104 -- Addison Phillips to Respond to dom's thread after xfq forwards note -- due 2021-12-09 -- OPEN
15:09:08 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1104
15:09:18 [Bert]
addison: Trying to do that today.
15:09:22 [Bert]
action-1108?
15:09:22 [trackbot]
action-1108 -- Addison Phillips to Create naur review item -- due 2022-01-20 -- OPEN
15:09:22 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1108
15:09:29 [addison]
close action-1108
15:09:30 [trackbot]
Closed action-1108.
15:09:40 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 3
15:09:40 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:10:52 [Bert]
Eemeli introduces himself.
15:12:15 [Bert]
Expects work on DOM localization and other things. Based in Finland.
15:13:23 [Bert]
r12a: I wanted to ask about DOM localization?
15:13:47 [Bert]
eemeli: Abstraction we'd like to push about declarative syntaxes.
15:14:19 [Bert]
... Attributes that can pull resources.
15:14:38 [Bert]
... We have something like that already at Mozilla, which we'd like to make a standard.
15:14:50 [Bert]
... And make it more accessible and more standard.
15:15:05 [Bert]
... Make it easier and declarative.
15:15:26 [Bert]
r12a: Aware of ITS? Not exactly the same, but maybe interesting.
15:15:42 [Bert]
eemeli: Not quite the same, indeed.
15:15:55 [JcK]
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15:16:29 [Bert]
addison: It can help identify where the localizable parts are. You talk more about where to get the localized content itself from.
15:16:34 [JcK]
present+ JcK
15:17:16 [Bert]
r12a: Localization needs additional metadata for translator or processor and that is what ITS mostly looks at.
15:17:49 [Bert]
eemeli: That is likely to be wrapped into Unicode message format we're working on.
15:19:12 [Bert]
r12a: ITS took wings with xliff. Your DOM localization may bring in more things.
15:19:46 [Bert]
... You might want to have a look at it.
15:19:48 [Bert]
https://www.w3.org/TR/its/
15:20:01 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 4
15:20:01 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:20:14 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
15:20:46 [r12a]
https://www.w3.org/TR/2017/NOTE-its2req-20170302/
15:21:37 [Bert]
addison: 2 incoming items. 1st is NAUR, due March (arbitrarily)
15:22:07 [Bert]
Bert: I can do that one.
15:22:36 [Bert]
addison: 2nd is CSS conditional, also due in March
15:22:50 [Bert]
atsushi: I'm interested.
15:23:27 [addison]
agenda?
15:23:54 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 8
15:23:54 [Zakim]
agendum 8 -- commit updates to specdev -- taken up [from addison]
15:24:09 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/55
15:24:14 [r12a]
https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/55/6bb258c...aphillips:8e6435f.html
15:25:05 [Bert]
addison: Discovered we also had a related old action, which I combined with this.
15:25:51 [Bert]
r12a: To recap for new participants: This doc is a collection of dos and donts for spec writers.
15:26:48 [Bert]
addison: I edited section 5.6
15:27:33 [Bert]
r12a: Change title to "Working with file and path names"? Leaves scope for more.
15:27:39 [Bert]
addison: I can do that.
15:28:28 [Bert]
r12a: It doesn't say why file names should be restricted to 255 bytes.
15:28:50 [Bert]
addison: Comes from DOS. I can add that.
15:29:12 [Bert]
... Much comes from EPUB, with minor rewording.
15:29:21 [Bert]
... But I can add explanations.
15:30:08 [Bert]
r12a: Missing name for character e001.
15:30:40 [Bert]
addison: I think it was originally a range...
15:30:48 [Bert]
s/e001/e0001/
15:31:48 [Bert]
David: Are these DOS restrictions still relevant?
15:32:09 [Bert]
addison: EPUB uses them because ZIP files still have the same restrictions.
15:33:17 [Bert]
Changes to 5.6 accepted.
15:33:48 [Bert]
addison: Other section is 9.6.1
15:34:20 [Bert]
r12a: I was confused whether it was about exceptions to the previous section. Suggest "Working with errors and exceptions".
15:35:03 [Bert]
... Wording: localizable content vs natural language text. Are we applying those correctly?
15:35:47 [Bert]
... Natural language text is kind of hand-waiving, but localizable text should be precise.
15:36:30 [Bert]
addison: I'm happy to visit individual instances of the terms. Or do you want to talk about the terms themselves?
15:37:50 [Bert]
... We have a separate glossary document I'd like to put the items there.
15:38:13 [eemeli]
Is there a Matrix bridge for this channel available somewhere? I see some w3c IRC channels on matrix.org, but not this one.
15:38:34 [Bert]
r12a: The terms are there already. I suggest we indeed pull the glossary out of this best practices doc.
15:38:40 [r12a]
https://w3c.github.io/i18n-glossary/#n
15:38:41 [addison]
https://www.org/TR/i18n-glossary
15:40:03 [eemeli[m]]
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15:40:34 [addison]
move note up and link to glossary document, remove rest of glossary
15:40:57 [r12a]
note at https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/55/6bb258c...aphillips:8e6435f.html#glossary
15:41:15 [Bert]
r12a: Might be useful to move the note from the glossary section to the top of the doc and link from it to the glossary document.
15:41:21 [eemeli[m]]
Answering my own earlier question: Yes, a bridge is available as `#irc.w3.org_#i18n:w3ctag.org`.
15:41:41 [eemeli]
eemeli has left #i18n
15:42:22 [Bert]
r12a: "content" sounds a bit strange. Maybe "localizable strings"?
15:42:42 [Bert]
addison: Not all strings are localizable.
15:43:09 [Bert]
David: And some things that are not strings are still localizable, such as images.
15:44:13 [Bert]
addison: If one were to translate a document, what would one expect to see changed? That's the content we're referring to.
15:44:53 [Bert]
r12a: Text that the user will see.
15:45:09 [Bert]
addison: I can add "or strings" if that makes it clearer.
15:46:06 [Bert]
... I will have a conversation with the TAG, related to my action item.
15:46:53 [Bert]
r12a: Adding "strings" will be useful to explain things to people.
15:46:54 [addison]
action: addison: add "... and strings" to glossary definition of localizable content
15:46:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1110 - Add "... and strings" to glossary definition of localizable content [on Addison Phillips - due 2022-01-27].
15:47:17 [Bert]
... Should we replace "localizable content" with "locallizable text"?
15:47:56 [Bert]
addison: No, we don't mean all text, not the tags, e.g,
15:48:27 [Bert]
David: Localizable content can be videos.
15:49:15 [Bert]
r12a: I mean _localizable_ text (stress on localizable), not all text.
15:50:58 [Bert]
addison: There is a discussion about localizable PNG (or some of the data in it), which is a binary format...
15:51:43 [Bert]
r12a: Let me do the edits to the glossary.
15:51:59 [Bert]
addison: I will edit the best practices.
15:52:39 [r12a]
mojibake
15:52:54 [Bert]
... Should we make an issue or pull request about mojibake?
15:53:33 [Bert]
r12a: A pull request.
15:54:54 [Bert]
r12a: 3.1 uses "localizable" content in the second mustard and natural language in the first, is that consistent?
15:55:12 [Bert]
addison: I think localizable content.
15:55:27 [Bert]
About "content" vs "text"
15:55:42 [Bert]
David: I think here it is "localizable text".
15:56:39 [Bert]
addison: If I make the edits, will the links to the glossary be broken at first?
15:57:00 [Bert]
r12a: We shouldn't worry about that, we'll fix that later.
15:57:28 [r12a]
String meta is https://w3c.github.io/string-meta/
15:57:59 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 7
15:57:59 [Zakim]
agendum 7 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:58:37 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/PNG-spec/issues/69
15:59:28 [Bert]
atsushi: Text extension in PNG: shouldn't we recommend to use itxt instead and deprecate the latin-1 text extension?
16:00:28 [Bert]
addison: Two problems: 1) use Unicode text extension (iTXT) when you can, but 2) the other extension still exists and thus should be well-defined.
16:01:23 [Bert]
... Historical reasons for the latin-1 encoding, it was a hack to pass bytes through.
16:02:17 [Bert]
... But update to PNG breaks that hack, because certain bytes become forbidden.
16:03:55 [Bert]
zakim, end meeting
16:03:55 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Fuqiao, Atsushi, Bert, JcK, Richard, r12a, David, xfq, Erik, Nordin, JvK, Eemeli, Aro
16:03:58 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:03:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/20-i18n-minutes.html Zakim
16:04:01 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, Bert; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
16:04:06 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #i18n
16:11:03 [r12a]
s/<eemeli[m]> Answering my own earlier question: Yes, a bridge is available as `#irc.w3.org_#i18n:w3ctag.org`.//
16:11:21 [r12a]
s/<eemeli> Is there a Matrix bridge for this channel available somewhere? I see some w3c IRC channels on matrix.org, but not this one.//
16:11:28 [r12a]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:11:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/20-i18n-minutes.html r12a
16:13:01 [r12a]
s/Answering my own earlier question: Yes, a bridge is available as `#irc.w3.org_#i18n:w3ctag.org`.//
16:13:19 [r12a]
s/Is there a Matrix bridge for this channel available somewhere? I see some w3c IRC channels on matrix.org, but not this one.//
16:13:23 [r12a]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:13:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/20-i18n-minutes.html r12a