14:39:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:39:38 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/01/20-i18n-irc
14:39:48 <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference
14:39:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:39:54 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:39:54 <trackbot> Date: 20 January 2022
14:39:57 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/baf262b7-7551-4c04-96a0-662d85c35505/20220120T150000
14:39:57 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:39:57 <agendabot> agenda+ Agenda Review
14:39:57 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
14:39:59 <agendabot> agenda+ Info Share
14:40:01 <agendabot> agenda+ RADAR Review
14:40:03 <agendabot> agenda+ String-Meta
14:40:06 <agendabot> agenda+ Radar Assignments
14:40:08 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB?
14:40:41 <addison> agenda+ commit updates to specdev
14:40:51 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
14:40:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/20-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:53:49 <addison> present+
15:01:17 <nordzilla> nordzilla has joined #i18n
15:01:26 <addison> present+ Richard, Eemeli Aro, Atsushi, Erik Nordin
15:01:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/20-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:02:17 <addison> present+ Bert
15:02:41 <Bert> scribe: Bert
15:04:50 <Bert> addison: Our W3C calendar needs editing. Seems difficult to just extend the dates... I may have to send feature requests. :-)
15:05:05 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:05:05 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:05:06 <addison> agenda?
15:05:35 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
15:05:35 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:05:40 <eemeli> eemeli has joined #i18n
15:05:45 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
15:06:17 <Bert> action-1094?
15:06:18 <trackbot> action-1094 -- Addison Phillips to Start conversation with ecma-402 et al about webidl work -- due 2021-11-11 -- OPEN
15:06:18 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1094
15:06:39 <Bert> addison: Will get explainer done this week.
15:06:47 <Bert> action-1097?
15:06:47 <trackbot> action-1097 -- Addison Phillips to Codify epub's character restrictions as guidance for specdev -- due 2021-11-25 -- OPEN
15:06:47 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1097
15:06:53 <addison> close action-1097
15:06:53 <trackbot> Closed action-1097.
15:06:55 <Bert> addison: On agenda for later.
15:07:00 <Bert> action-1098?
15:07:00 <trackbot> action-1098 -- Richard Ishida to Review lang-bidi-use-cases for clarity of use cases of specific override -- due 2021-11-25 -- OPEN
15:07:00 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1098
15:07:10 <David> David has joined #I18n
15:07:25 <Bert> r12a: Not done, will look over next week.
15:07:32 <Bert> action-1100?
15:07:32 <trackbot> action-1100 -- Addison Phillips to Move and close unassigned with support from r12a -- due 2021-11-25 -- OPEN
15:07:32 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1100
15:07:56 <David> zakim present+
15:08:08 <David> present+
15:08:18 <Bert> addison: Only thing left seems to close items under "awaiting comment resoluttion"
15:08:26 <addison> close action-1100
15:08:26 <trackbot> Closed action-1100.
15:08:43 <Bert> ... Maybe need actions for shepherds to close their own itmes,
15:08:50 <addison> action: addison: remind shepherds to  tend to their awaiting comment resolutions
15:08:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1109 - Remind shepherds to  tend to their awaiting comment resolutions [on Addison Phillips - due 2022-01-27].
15:08:56 <Bert> s/itmes/items./
15:09:00 <Bert> action-1103?
15:09:00 <trackbot> action-1103 -- Addison Phillips to File issue with tag to discuss fate of lang/dir metadata and prepare explainer -- due 2021-12-09 -- OPEN
15:09:01 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1103
15:09:08 <Bert> action-1104?
15:09:08 <trackbot> action-1104 -- Addison Phillips to Respond to dom's thread after xfq forwards note -- due 2021-12-09 -- OPEN
15:09:08 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1104
15:09:18 <Bert> addison: Trying to do that today.
15:09:22 <Bert> action-1108?
15:09:22 <trackbot> action-1108 -- Addison Phillips to Create naur review item -- due 2022-01-20 -- OPEN
15:09:22 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1108
15:09:29 <addison> close action-1108
15:09:30 <trackbot> Closed action-1108.
15:09:40 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
15:09:40 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:10:52 <Bert> Eemeli introduces himself.
15:12:15 <Bert> Expects work on DOM localization and other things. Based in Finland.
15:13:23 <Bert> r12a: I wanted to ask about DOM localization?
15:13:47 <Bert> eemeli: Abstraction we'd like to push about declarative syntaxes.
15:14:19 <Bert> ... Attributes that can pull resources.
15:14:38 <Bert> ... We have something like that already at Mozilla, which we'd like to make a standard.
15:14:50 <Bert> ... And make it more accessible and more standard.
15:15:05 <Bert> ... Make it easier and declarative.
15:15:26 <Bert> r12a: Aware of ITS? Not exactly the same, but maybe interesting.
15:15:42 <Bert> eemeli: Not quite the same, indeed.
15:15:55 <JcK> JcK has joined #i18n
15:16:29 <Bert> addison: It can help identify where the localizable parts are. You talk more about where to get the localized content itself from.
15:16:34 <JcK> present+ JcK
15:17:16 <Bert> r12a: Localization needs additional metadata for translator or processor and that is what ITS mostly looks at.
15:17:49 <Bert> eemeli: That is likely to be wrapped into Unicode message format we're working on.
15:19:12 <Bert> r12a: ITS took wings with xliff. Your DOM localization may bring in more things.
15:19:46 <Bert> ... You might want to have a look at it.
15:19:48 <Bert> https://www.w3.org/TR/its/
15:20:01 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
15:20:01 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:20:14 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
15:20:46 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/TR/2017/NOTE-its2req-20170302/
15:21:37 <Bert> addison: 2 incoming items. 1st is NAUR, due March (arbitrarily)
15:22:07 <Bert> Bert: I can do that one.
15:22:36 <Bert> addison: 2nd is CSS conditional, also due in March
15:22:50 <Bert> atsushi: I'm interested.
15:23:27 <addison> agenda?
15:23:54 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 8
15:23:54 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- commit updates to specdev -- taken up [from addison]
15:24:09 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/55
15:24:14 <r12a> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/55/6bb258c...aphillips:8e6435f.html
15:25:05 <Bert> addison: Discovered we also had a related old action, which I combined with this.
15:25:51 <Bert> r12a: To recap for new participants: This doc is a collection of dos and donts for spec writers.
15:26:48 <Bert> addison: I edited section 5.6
15:27:33 <Bert> r12a: Change title to "Working with file and path names"? Leaves scope for more.
15:27:39 <Bert> addison: I can do that.
15:28:28 <Bert> r12a: It doesn't say why file names should be restricted to 255 bytes.
15:28:50 <Bert> addison: Comes from DOS. I can add that.
15:29:12 <Bert> ... Much comes from EPUB, with minor rewording.
15:29:21 <Bert> ... But I can add explanations.
15:30:08 <Bert> r12a: Missing name for character e001.
15:30:40 <Bert> addison: I think it was originally a range...
15:30:48 <Bert> s/e001/e0001/
15:31:48 <Bert> David: Are these DOS restrictions still relevant?
15:32:09 <Bert> addison: EPUB uses them because ZIP files still have the same restrictions.
15:33:17 <Bert> Changes to 5.6 accepted.
15:33:48 <Bert> addison: Other section is 9.6.1
15:34:20 <Bert> r12a: I was confused whether it was about exceptions to the previous section. Suggest "Working with errors and exceptions".
15:35:03 <Bert> ... Wording: localizable content vs natural language text. Are we applying those correctly?
15:35:47 <Bert> ... Natural language text is kind of hand-waiving, but localizable text should be precise.
15:36:30 <Bert> addison: I'm happy to visit individual instances of the terms. Or do you want to talk about the terms themselves?
15:37:50 <Bert> ... We have a separate glossary document I'd like to put the items there.
15:38:13 <eemeli> Is there a Matrix bridge for this channel available somewhere? I see some w3c IRC channels on matrix.org, but not this one.
15:38:34 <Bert> r12a: The terms are there already. I suggest we indeed pull the glossary out of this best practices doc.
15:38:40 <r12a> https://w3c.github.io/i18n-glossary/#n
15:38:41 <addison> https://www.org/TR/i18n-glossary
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15:40:34 <addison> move note up and link to glossary document, remove rest of glossary
15:40:57 <r12a> note at https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/55/6bb258c...aphillips:8e6435f.html#glossary
15:41:15 <Bert> r12a: Might be useful to move the note from the glossary section to the top of the doc and link from it to the glossary document.
15:41:21 <eemeli[m]> Answering my own earlier question: Yes, a bridge is available as `#irc.w3.org_#i18n:w3ctag.org`.
15:41:41 <eemeli> eemeli has left #i18n
15:42:22 <Bert> r12a: "content" sounds a bit strange. Maybe "localizable strings"?
15:42:42 <Bert> addison: Not all strings are localizable.
15:43:09 <Bert> David: And some things that are not strings are still localizable, such as images.
15:44:13 <Bert> addison: If one were to translate a document, what would one expect to see changed? That's the content we're referring to.
15:44:53 <Bert> r12a: Text that the user will see.
15:45:09 <Bert> addison: I can add "or strings" if that makes it clearer.
15:46:06 <Bert> ... I will have a conversation with the TAG, related to my action item.
15:46:53 <Bert> r12a: Adding "strings" will be useful to explain things to people.
15:46:54 <addison> action: addison: add "... and strings" to glossary definition of localizable content
15:46:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1110 - Add "... and strings" to glossary definition of localizable content [on Addison Phillips - due 2022-01-27].
15:47:17 <Bert> ... Should we replace "localizable content" with "locallizable text"?
15:47:56 <Bert> addison: No, we don't mean all text, not the tags, e.g,
15:48:27 <Bert> David: Localizable content can be videos.
15:49:15 <Bert> r12a: I mean _localizable_ text (stress on localizable), not all text.
15:50:58 <Bert> addison: There is a discussion about localizable PNG (or some of the data in it), which is a binary format...
15:51:43 <Bert> r12a: Let me do the edits to the glossary.
15:51:59 <Bert> addison: I will edit the best practices.
15:52:39 <r12a> mojibake
15:52:54 <Bert> ... Should we make an issue or pull request about mojibake?
15:53:33 <Bert> r12a: A pull request.
15:54:54 <Bert> r12a: 3.1 uses "localizable" content in the second mustard and natural language in the first, is that consistent?
15:55:12 <Bert> addison: I think localizable content.
15:55:27 <Bert> About "content" vs "text"
15:55:42 <Bert> David: I think here it is "localizable text".
15:56:39 <Bert> addison: If I make the edits, will the links to the glossary be broken at first?
15:57:00 <Bert> r12a: We shouldn't worry about that, we'll fix that later.
15:57:28 <r12a> String meta is https://w3c.github.io/string-meta/
15:57:59 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 7
15:57:59 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:58:37 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/PNG-spec/issues/69
15:59:28 <Bert> atsushi: Text extension in PNG: shouldn't we recommend to use itxt instead and deprecate the latin-1 text extension?
16:00:28 <Bert> addison: Two problems: 1) use Unicode text extension (iTXT) when you can, but 2) the other extension still exists and thus should be well-defined.
16:01:23 <Bert> ... Historical reasons for the latin-1 encoding, it was a hack to pass bytes through.
16:02:17 <Bert> ... But update to PNG breaks that hack, because certain bytes become forbidden.
16:03:55 <Bert> zakim, end meeting
16:03:55 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Fuqiao, Atsushi, Bert, JcK, Richard, r12a, David, xfq, Erik, Nordin, JvK, Eemeli, Aro
16:03:58 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:03:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/20-i18n-minutes.html Zakim
16:04:01 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Bert; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:04:06 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n
16:11:03 <r12a> s/<eemeli[m]> Answering my own earlier question: Yes, a bridge is available as `#irc.w3.org_#i18n:w3ctag.org`.//
16:11:21 <r12a> s/<eemeli> Is there a Matrix bridge for this channel available somewhere? I see some w3c IRC channels on matrix.org, but not this one.//
16:11:28 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:11:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/20-i18n-minutes.html r12a
16:13:01 <r12a> s/Answering my own earlier question: Yes, a bridge is available as `#irc.w3.org_#i18n:w3ctag.org`.//
16:13:19 <r12a> s/Is there a Matrix bridge for this channel available somewhere? I see some w3c IRC channels on matrix.org, but not this one.//
16:13:23 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:13:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/20-i18n-minutes.html r12a