Meeting minutes
<tzviya> Date: 2022-01-18
Liz: [sharing her screen]
… I looked at various disciplinary/dispute resolution documents
… if you get to a disciplinary process, it's too late
… a lot of guidance focuses on resolving issues early or with mediation
… putting the idea out there that this has to happen in dispute resolution processes, you won't get 100% of what you want
… which is difficult when you are the receiver, but without some give, it can be challenging
… someone has to wade through the experiences and find a solution
… the best instance is try to work through the conflict, you won't likely see someone removed from the W3C right away
… continued instances of dispute leads to escalating consequences
… this is what I've seen, but I want feedback on what I have done so far
… first, change the name to dispute resolution
… goal of getting people to work together to correct behaviours and to be able to continue to work together
… repairing issues as opposed to discipline
… mentioned of the CEPC, resolutions will be based on this
… it's expected for individuals to begin to resolve on their own
… everyone involved in a dispute process is expected to
… confidentiality is a question, how much is needed, this is an open question
… investigation starts when a mediation is impossible
… like an assault or when resolution attempts have failed
… timebox of when complaints should be raised
… you should raise quickly in order to collect evidence or to ensure witnesses are contacted
… again, for discussion
… details about investigator is TBD
… W3M likely needs to be involved and ombuds, etc
… second section is the types of things that can be done
… types of mediation
… be clear about the issue, avoid abusive language, be clear about outcomes
<annette_g> typo: chang for change
Liz_Lutgendorff: who is comfortable with what communication
… email, in person, etc
… mediation is a strong preference, a neutral third party to help talk through the problem
… coming to a healthy resolution
… who would be these mediators
… in the UK we have a service, but as an org, do we want to train people, is there an international org we can work with?
… does it cost money, can we pay for it?
… goal is to have actions for parties to adhere to
… and serves as a guideline for future disciplinary action if needed
… first part is solving the problem individually or with one other party
… standard best practice
… mediation is preferred, because it's less punitive
<annette_g> "raise a written complaint using and submit..." - missing word?
Liz_Lutgendorff: going directly to disciplinary can lead to someone feeling attacked
… going directly to an investigation can yield unfavorable results too if situation is unclear or poorly documented
… with investigations, in general, it's raise a complaint, someone investigates, interviews both sides of the grievance
… they deliver a report of the situation and an overview of the proposed resolution or verdict
… not sure how this would work in the W3C
… if you accumulate too many of these complaints, would there be a process to remove people from groups, from roles, from the organization
… crowd-sourcing an appropriate disciplinary action
… who would do this, this is an open question
… disciplinary actions would be communicated by W3M
… should we keep these confidential, open?
… 1. corrective action
… escalates from there
… written warning, in person warning
… final warning
… culminates in termination of membership
… there's areas of question
… this is the gist of it
tzviya: Thanks Liz
… I wanted to add suspension as a step
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to recommend adding suspension
Liz_Lutgendorff: The others could be removal from a group, removal from a role, etc
sheila: Thanks for this, it's great that its in progress
… it feels directionally right
… questions
… use of the word/phrase "you need to"
… is this a direction or best practice
… I think it should be the latter, and maybe soften the language
… there is a part where communication method is mentioned to be best for both parties
… if I'm the aggrieved party, that might be frustrating to me
… the last thing, I like emphasizing the individual conversation step
… I'm afraid of it feeling like an expectation that everyone starts with resolving themselves
… could we add a clarification to ensure people know there's more options if the issue is sensitive or challenging to someone
Liz_Lutgendorff: I'll add that. In my experience as a union rep, the issues had a broad range, when someone raises an issue, the other party doesn't often agree
… so the only way to get a resolution is to meet them partway
… do we want a process that doesn't resolve issues, or meets people where they are
… it's not ideal
… it's a challenge to engage people in these situations
… we have a lot of documentation, people can look at chat records etc
… one person's micromanagement is another's performance management
… the challenge is also to find a third party who is neutral to assess this
sheila: If we focus on that process, we just need to soften the language for the aggrieved party
Judy: Few comments, document accessibility
… if someone is bringing a document to share it in multiple ways
… it's not accessible to scroll through on screen
… if someone could forward me the document that would help
… that said, could you scroll back to the point about assault
Liz_Lutgendorff: I don't have a reference for it, it's just from my government docs
Judy: Assault is relevant here
… even when mostly virtual as we are now
… my sense is that drawn heavily from an employment context
… two concerns, the measures discussed that are most pertinent where there's an employment context
… thank you for the thorough document
… context matching would be a good next step
… volunteer vs employment
… resources are a challenge here too, we're not resourced to handle the policies we do have
… we're going to need to be advocates to properly resource this
Liz_Lutgendorff: I agree, it's a mix of employment and general dispute guidance in the legal sense
… usually these things are because of a legal dispute
… from a volunteer position
… we have a similar one from when I worked with a charity
… some of the points are the same, the way you compel people's behaviour do change
… the sticks are the things you can take away
… if we can realistically impose these sticks is an issue
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to add a clause about making sure that your safety comes first
Liz_Lutgendorff: can we ban someone from being a chair without publishing?
tzviya: I agree with Sheila's comments about emphasizing safety
… stressing that saffety comes first
… putting things in writing, etc
… to respond to Judy
… this does look like an employee setting, they're more robust
… but I do have some examples from things like the contributor covenant
<tzviya> https://
tzviya: they've added consequences since we've referenced it
<tzviya> https://
tzviya: some leave the consequences open, up to staff, I don't think this works for us
… I think what Liz has presented is close to what we want
Liz_Lutgendorff: There are levels to t his
… what is realistic for us
… investigations take a lot of time
… it's done by staff, you're trained to do it
… by default, I don't think it should be done by W3C, we should hire out, but it might not be ffeasible
… if we do use people internally, how do we not overwhelm them
… resolution can take a long time as well
… you might have to have further interactions with the individual being investigated
… there's a balancing act between getting resolution and investigating fully
tzviya: I don't think there's an easy answer here
… I do think we need to figure out who will be responsible
… we do need to take this to W3M
… we need budget and to determine cost
… being responsible for this could impact other work
… third parties, who that would be, costs
… confidentiality, if we want to understand repeat offenders, we need that information
Liz_Lutgendorff: I haven't thought about information management
annette_g: I think it makes sense to seek out people outside of W3C to do the mediation
… the document may not need to mention that
… the logistics get handled at another time
Liz_Lutgendorff: Luckily the CEPC, it aligns with general working practices on discrimination in the workplace
… many firms would be focused on the specific laws in a jurisdiction
… we'd need to find someone who understand overlaps or international contexts
… some companies are outsourced HR firms, who specialize in this
… work on retainer
Judy: Just in response, W3C is not currently a single legal entity
… we're working on that now
… in our current state we're an agreement between 4 hosts
… the employees can have things handled by the HR departments of the hosts
… there's challenges, different contexts
… tzviya and I started looking at outsourced dispute resolution, not a lot of progress but worth looking at
tzviya: wseltzer and Judy, would you know if the PEO we're looking at could handle this?
Judy: Not sure
… wseltzer had an idea
wseltzer: The question that we should be recognizing
… whether we do it through HR or other, we as a group need to make a recommendation to W3M that it's important to community health to do this
… the budget is a management problem
… it's important for us here to hear the concerns, raise them to colleagues and the importance of it being an independent function
… our job here is to raise it's importance
… I'll take it back to management
tzviya: Next steps, Liz to edit the docs
Liz_Lutgendorff: I'll edit it, please feel free to share any other docs you know, like equivalent docs in your jurisdiction I can add them
… I'll do some research on cost of mediation
… there might be other options
… there was changes to legislation here so there's more in that space
… please share if you know any
… I'll do a second draft, maybe in two meetings' time
<Judy> [JB: whatever we choose, it will need to be internationally facing, not nationally only]
tzviya: Having a sense of how many of these per year would help as well
Liz_Lutgendorff: How big is W3C?
<Jemma> thanks for all your work on draft, Liz.
tzviya: There's about 400 members, but some are one person, some have hundreds
wseltzer: I don't have a number, 600 people to TPAC, 5x times that who participate in WGs and even more participating in CGs or other activities
Liz_Lutgendorff: If anyone is comfortable, could you ask your HR teams?
… how many disciplinary investigations do you run a year
… could give us a number
… I had a caseload of about 200-400/year, and that was just union members
tzviya: Judy made the point that we need to look at international standards and solutions
… we're very international
… please share any resources you have
… next meeting should be about the next steps for the ombuds program
… AOB?
… in the last meeting, I talked about the possibility of closing out some issues in the IDCG/PWE GH repos
… if anyone would like to take some time to review issues
<sheila> happy to help, tzviya!
<sheila> thanks all!
tzviya: thanks everyone!