IRC log of pwe on 2022-01-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/01/18-pwe-irc
14:59:00 [Zakim]
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14:59:08 [tzviya]
Meeting: PWE
14:59:15 [tzviya]
Date: 2022-01-18
14:59:18 [tzviya]
Chair: Liz
14:59:49 [tzviya]
Agenda+ Draft Dispute Resolution AOB
14:59:56 [wendyreid]
present+
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s/Draft Dispute Resolution AOB/Draft Dispute Resolution
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Agenda+ AOB
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15:03:02 [Jemma]
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regrets+ Charles, Leonie
15:04:12 [Liz_Lutgendorff]
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scribe+
15:04:42 [tzviya]
present+ Tzviya, Liz, wendyreid, Jemma, Annette
15:04:51 [wseltzer]
present+
15:04:53 [wendyreid]
Liz: [sharing her screen]
15:05:12 [annette_g]
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15:05:13 [wendyreid]
... I looked at various disciplinary/dispute resolution documents
15:05:33 [wendyreid]
... if you get to a disciplinary process, it's too late
15:05:45 [wendyreid]
... a lot of guidance focuses on resolving issues early or with mediation
15:05:53 [tzviya]
present+ Sheila
15:05:57 [Jemma]
present+
15:06:05 [sheila]
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15:06:08 [wendyreid]
... putting the idea out there that this has to happen in dispute resolution processes, you won't get 100% of what you want
15:06:27 [wendyreid]
... which is difficult when you are the receiver, but without some give, it can be challenging
15:06:38 [wendyreid]
... someone has to wade through the experiences and find a solution
15:07:03 [wendyreid]
... the best instance is try to work through the conflict, you won't likely see someone removed from the W3C right away
15:07:16 [wendyreid]
... continued instances of dispute leads to escalating consequences
15:07:25 [wendyreid]
... this is what I've seen, but I want feedback on what I have done so far
15:07:32 [wendyreid]
... first, change the name to dispute resolution
15:07:49 [wendyreid]
... goal of getting people to work together to correct behaviours and to be able to continue to work together
15:07:56 [wendyreid]
... repairing issues as opposed to discipline
15:08:10 [wendyreid]
... mentioned of the CEPC, resolutions will be based on this
15:08:25 [wendyreid]
... it's expected for individuals to begin to resolve on their own
15:08:36 [wendyreid]
.... everyone involved in a dispute process is expected to
15:08:59 [wendyreid]
... confidentiality is a question, how much is needed, this is an open question
15:09:12 [wendyreid]
... investigation starts when a mediation is impossible
15:09:22 [wendyreid]
... like an assault or when resolution attempts have failed
15:09:32 [wendyreid]
... timebox of when complaints should be raised
15:10:04 [wendyreid]
... you should raise quickly in order to collect evidence or to ensure witnesses are contacted
15:10:12 [wendyreid]
... again, for discussion
15:10:26 [wendyreid]
... details about investigator is TBD
15:10:37 [wendyreid]
... W3M likely needs to be involved and ombuds, etc
15:10:48 [wendyreid]
... second section is the types of things that can be done
15:10:51 [wendyreid]
... types of mediation
15:11:14 [wendyreid]
... be clear about the issue, avoid abusive language, be clear about outcomes
15:11:24 [annette_g]
typo: chang for change
15:11:44 [wendyreid]
Liz_Lutgendorff: who is comfortable with what communication
15:11:49 [wendyreid]
... email, in person, etc
15:12:09 [wendyreid]
... mediation is a strong preference, a neutral third party to help talk through the problem
15:12:15 [wendyreid]
... coming to a healthy resolution
15:12:23 [wendyreid]
... who would be these mediators
15:12:40 [wendyreid]
... in the UK we have a service, but as an org, do we want to train people, is there an international org we can work with?
15:12:47 [wendyreid]
... does it cost money, can we pay for it?
15:12:55 [wendyreid]
... goal is to have actions for parties to adhere to
15:13:10 [wendyreid]
... and serves as a guideline for future disciplinary action if needed
15:14:17 [wendyreid]
... first part is solving the problem individually or with one other party
15:14:21 [wendyreid]
... standard best practice
15:14:32 [wendyreid]
... mediation is preferred, because it's less punitive
15:14:43 [annette_g]
"raise a written complaint using and submit..." - missing word?
15:14:45 [wendyreid]
... going directly to disciplinary can lead to someone feeling attacked
15:15:20 [wendyreid]
... going directly to an investigation can yield unfavorable results too if situation is unclear or poorly documented
15:15:43 [wendyreid]
... with investigations, in general, it's raise a complaint, someone investigates, interviews both sides of the grievance
15:16:05 [wendyreid]
... they deliver a report of the situation and an overview of the proposed resolution or verdict
15:16:14 [wendyreid]
... not sure how this would work in the W3C
15:16:40 [wendyreid]
... if you accumulate too many of these complaints, would there be a process to remove people from groups, from roles, from the organization
15:16:55 [wendyreid]
... crowd-sourcing an appropriate disciplinary action
15:17:02 [wendyreid]
... who would do this, this is an open question
15:17:22 [wendyreid]
... disciplinary actions would be communicated by W3M
15:17:32 [wendyreid]
... should we keep these confidential, open?
15:17:38 [wendyreid]
... 1. corrective action
15:18:01 [wendyreid]
... escalates from there
15:18:09 [wendyreid]
... written warning, in person warning
15:18:14 [wendyreid]
... final warning
15:18:23 [wendyreid]
... culminates in termination of membership
15:18:31 [tzviya]
q+ to recommend adding suspension
15:18:34 [wendyreid]
... there's areas of question
15:18:38 [wendyreid]
... this is the gist of it
15:18:45 [wendyreid]
tzviya: Thanks Liz
15:18:55 [wendyreid]
... I wanted to add suspension as a step
15:18:55 [sheila]
q+
15:18:59 [Judy]
q+
15:19:02 [tzviya]
ack me
15:19:02 [Zakim]
tzviya, you wanted to recommend adding suspension
15:19:10 [tzviya]
ack sheila
15:19:12 [wendyreid]
Liz_Lutgendorff: The others could be removal from a group, removal from a role, etc
15:19:22 [wendyreid]
sheila: Thanks for this, it's great that its in progress
15:19:27 [wendyreid]
... it feels directionally right
15:19:29 [wendyreid]
... questions
15:19:39 [wendyreid]
... use of the word/phrase "you need to"
15:19:49 [wendyreid]
... is this a direction or best practice
15:20:01 [wendyreid]
... I think it should be the latter, and maybe soften the language
15:20:19 [wendyreid]
... there is a part where communication method is mentioned to be best for both parties
15:20:31 [wendyreid]
... if I'm the aggrieved party, that might be frustrating to me
15:20:53 [wendyreid]
... the last thing, I like emphasizing the individual conversation step
15:21:10 [wendyreid]
... I'm afraid of it feeling like an expectation that everyone starts with resolving themselves
15:21:27 [tzviya]
q+ to add a clause about making sure that your safety comes first
15:21:34 [wendyreid]
... could we add a clarification to ensure people know there's more options if the issue is sensitive or challenging to someone
15:22:16 [wendyreid]
Liz_Lutgendorff: I'll add that. In my experience as a union rep, the issues had a broad range, when someone raises an issue, the other party doesn't often agree
15:22:29 [wendyreid]
... so the only way to get a resolution is to meet them partway
15:22:41 [wendyreid]
... do we want a process that doesn't resolve issues, or meets people where they are
15:22:44 [wendyreid]
... it's not ideal
15:23:04 [wendyreid]
... it's a challenge to engage people in these situations
15:23:30 [wendyreid]
... we have a lot of documentation, people can look at chat records etc
15:23:41 [wendyreid]
... one person's micromanagement is another's performance management
15:23:52 [wendyreid]
... the challenge is also to find a third party who is neutral to assess this
15:24:12 [tzviya]
ack Judy
15:24:13 [wendyreid]
sheila: If we focus on that process, we just need to soften the language for the aggrieved party
15:24:20 [wendyreid]
Judy: Few comments, document accessibility
15:24:32 [wendyreid]
... if someone is bringing a document to share it in multiple ways
15:24:49 [wendyreid]
... it's not accessible to scroll through on screen
15:24:58 [wendyreid]
... if someone could forward me the document that would help
15:25:25 [wendyreid]
... that said, could you scroll back to the point about assault
15:25:49 [wendyreid]
Liz_Lutgendorff: I don't have a reference for it, it's just from my government docs
15:25:55 [wendyreid]
Judy: Assault is relevant here
15:26:04 [wendyreid]
... even when mostly virtual as we are now
15:26:21 [wendyreid]
... my sense is that drawn heavily from an employment context
15:26:43 [wendyreid]
... two concerns, the measures discussed that are most pertinent where there's an employment contect
15:26:49 [wendyreid]
s/contect/context
15:26:56 [wendyreid]
... thank you for the thorough document
15:27:05 [wendyreid]
... context matching would be a good next step
15:27:13 [wendyreid]
... volunteer vs employment
15:27:32 [wendyreid]
... resources are a challenge here too, we're not resourced to handle the policies we do have
15:27:45 [wendyreid]
... we're going to need to be advocates to properly resource this
15:28:00 [wendyreid]
Liz_Lutgendorff: I agree, it's a mix of employment and general dispute guidance in the legal sense
15:28:07 [wendyreid]
... usually these things are because of a legal dispute
15:28:12 [wendyreid]
... from a volunteer position
15:28:20 [wendyreid]
... we have a similar one from when I worked with a charity
15:28:34 [wendyreid]
... some of the points are the same, the way you compel people's behaviour do change
15:28:41 [wendyreid]
... the sticks are the things you can take away
15:29:01 [wendyreid]
... if we can realistically impose these sticks is an issue
15:29:11 [tzviya]
ack me
15:29:11 [Zakim]
tzviya, you wanted to add a clause about making sure that your safety comes first
15:29:11 [wendyreid]
... can we ban someone from being a chair without publishing?
15:29:35 [wendyreid]
tzviya: I agree with Sheila's comments about emphasizing safety
15:29:42 [wendyreid]
... stressing that saffety comes first
15:29:58 [wendyreid]
... putting things in writing, etc
15:30:03 [wendyreid]
... to respond to Judy
15:30:17 [wendyreid]
... this does look like an employee setting, they're more robust
15:30:29 [wendyreid]
... but I do have some examples from things like the contributor covenant
15:30:32 [tzviya]
https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/2/1/code_of_conduct/
15:30:42 [wendyreid]
... they've added consequences since we've referenced it
15:30:49 [tzviya]
https://xoxofest.com/guide/conduct
15:31:09 [wendyreid]
... some leave the consequences open, up to staff, I don't think this works for us
15:31:19 [wendyreid]
... I think what Liz has presented is close to what we want
15:32:13 [wendyreid]
Liz_Lutgendorff: There are levels to t his
15:32:19 [wendyreid]
... what is realistic for us
15:32:24 [wendyreid]
... investigations take a lot of time
15:32:31 [wendyreid]
... it's done by staff, you're trained to do it
15:32:57 [wendyreid]
... by default, I don't think it should be done by W3C, we should hire out, but it might not be ffeasible
15:33:06 [wendyreid]
... if we do use people internally, how do we not overwhelm them
15:33:19 [wendyreid]
... resolution can take a long time as well
15:33:37 [wendyreid]
... you might have to have further interactions with the individual being investigated
15:33:57 [wendyreid]
... there's a balancing act between getting resolution and investigating fully
15:34:06 [wendyreid]
tzviya: I don't think there's an easy answer here
15:34:20 [wendyreid]
... I do think we need to figure out who will be responsible
15:34:26 [annette_g]
q+
15:34:29 [wendyreid]
... we do need to take this to W3M
15:34:37 [wendyreid]
... we need budget and to determine cost
15:34:50 [wendyreid]
... being responsible for this could impact other work
15:35:03 [wendyreid]
... third parties, who that would be, costs
15:35:18 [wendyreid]
... confidentiality, if we want to understand repeat offenders, we need that information
15:35:23 [tzviya]
ack annette_g
15:35:27 [wendyreid]
Liz_Lutgendorff: I haven't thought about information management
15:35:48 [wendyreid]
annette_g: I think it makes sense to seek out people outside of W3C to do the mediation
15:35:55 [wendyreid]
... the document may not need to mention that
15:36:01 [wendyreid]
... the logistics get handled at another time
15:36:23 [wendyreid]
Liz_Lutgendorff: Luckily the CEPC, it aligns with general working practices on discrimination in the workplace
15:36:42 [wendyreid]
... many firms would be focused on the specific laws in a jurisdiction
15:36:55 [wendyreid]
... we'd need to find someone who understand overlaps or international contexts
15:37:09 [Judy]
q+
15:37:10 [wendyreid]
... some companies are outsourced HR firms, who specialize in this
15:37:13 [wendyreid]
... work on retainer
15:37:16 [tzviya]
ack Judy
15:37:28 [wendyreid]
Judy: Just in response, W3C is not currently a single legal entity
15:37:32 [wendyreid]
... we're working on that now
15:37:45 [wendyreid]
... in our current state we're an agreement between 4 hosts
15:38:03 [wendyreid]
... the employees can have things handled by the HR departments of the hosts
15:38:11 [wendyreid]
... there's challenges, different contexts
15:38:33 [wendyreid]
... tzviya and I started looking at outsourced dispute resolution, not a lot of progress but worth looking at
15:38:45 [wendyreid]
tzviya: wseltzer and Judy, would you know if the ??? we're looking at could handle this?
15:38:50 [wendyreid]
Judy: Not sure
15:39:01 [tzviya]
s/???/PEO
15:39:03 [wendyreid]
... wseltzer had an idea
15:39:23 [wseltzer]
q+
15:39:40 [wendyreid]
wseltzer: The question that we should be recognizing
15:39:51 [tzviya]
ack ws
15:40:12 [wendyreid]
... whether we do it through HR or other, we as a group need to make a recommendation to W3M that it's important to community health to do this
15:40:25 [wendyreid]
... the budget is a management problem
15:40:51 [wendyreid]
... it's important for us here to hear the concerns, raise them to colleagues and the importance of it being an independent function
15:41:00 [wendyreid]
... our job here is to raise it's importance
15:41:08 [wendyreid]
... I'll take it back to management
15:41:16 [wendyreid]
tzviya: Next steps, Liz to edit the docs
15:41:42 [wendyreid]
Liz_Lutgendorff: I'll edit it, please feel free to share any other docs you know, like equivalent docs in your jurisdiction I can add them
15:41:51 [wendyreid]
... I'll do some research on cost of mediation
15:41:59 [wendyreid]
... there might be other options
15:42:09 [wendyreid]
... there was changes to legislation here so there's more in that space
15:42:18 [wendyreid]
... please share if you know any
15:42:35 [wendyreid]
... I'll do a second draft, maybe in two meetings' time
15:42:38 [Judy]
[JB: whatever we choose, it will need to be internationally facing, not nationally only]
15:42:52 [wendyreid]
tzviya: Having a sense of how many of these per year would help as well
15:42:57 [wendyreid]
Liz_Lutgendorff: How big is W3C?
15:43:07 [Jemma]
thanks for all your work on draft, Liz.
15:43:09 [wendyreid]
tzviya: There's about 400 members, but some are one person, some have hundreds
15:43:41 [wendyreid]
wseltzer: I don't have a number, 600 people to TPAC, 5x times that who participate in WGs and even more participating in CGs or other activities
15:43:59 [wendyreid]
Liz_Lutgendorff: If anyone is comfortable, could you ask your HR teams?
15:44:14 [wendyreid]
... how many disciplinary investigations do you run a year
15:44:27 [wendyreid]
... could give us a number
15:44:51 [wendyreid]
... I had a caseload of about 200-400/year, and that was just union members
15:45:15 [wendyreid]
tzviya: Judy made the point that we need to look at international standards and solutions
15:45:34 [wendyreid]
... we're very international
15:45:51 [wendyreid]
... please share any resources you have
15:46:07 [wendyreid]
... next meeting should be about the next steps for the ombuds program
15:46:20 [wendyreid]
... AOB?
15:46:43 [wendyreid]
... in the last meeting, I talked about the possibility of closing out some issues in the IDCG/PWE GH repos
15:46:50 [wendyreid]
... if anyone would like to take some time to review issues
15:46:51 [sheila]
happy to help, tzviya!
15:47:25 [sheila]
thanks all!
15:47:25 [wendyreid]
... thanks everyone!
15:47:44 [tzviya]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:47:51 [tzviya]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:47:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/18-pwe-minutes.html tzviya