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14:58:53 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/01/18-pwe-irc
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14:59:08 <tzviya> Meeting: PWE
14:59:15 <tzviya> Date: 2022-01-18
14:59:18 <tzviya> Chair: Liz
14:59:49 <tzviya> Agenda+ Draft Dispute Resolution AOB
14:59:56 <wendyreid> present+
15:00:18 <tzviya> s/Draft Dispute Resolution AOB/Draft Dispute Resolution
15:00:19 <tzviya> Agenda+ AOB
15:02:31 <Judy> Judy has joined #pwe
15:03:02 <Jemma> Jemma has joined #pwe
15:03:44 <tzviya> regrets+ Charles, Leonie
15:04:12 <Liz_Lutgendorff> Liz_Lutgendorff has joined #pwe
15:04:38 <wendyreid> scribe+
15:04:42 <tzviya> present+ Tzviya, Liz, wendyreid, Jemma, Annette
15:04:51 <wseltzer> present+
15:04:53 <wendyreid> Liz: [sharing her screen]
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15:05:13 <wendyreid> ... I looked at various disciplinary/dispute resolution documents
15:05:33 <wendyreid> ... if you get to a disciplinary process, it's too late
15:05:45 <wendyreid> ... a lot of guidance focuses on resolving issues early or with mediation
15:05:53 <tzviya> present+ Sheila
15:05:57 <Jemma> present+
15:06:05 <sheila> sheila has joined #pwe
15:06:08 <wendyreid> ... putting the idea out there that this has to happen in dispute resolution processes, you won't get 100% of what you want
15:06:27 <wendyreid> ... which is difficult when you are the receiver, but without some give, it can be challenging
15:06:38 <wendyreid> ... someone has to wade through the experiences and find a solution
15:07:03 <wendyreid> ... the best instance is try to work through the conflict, you won't likely see someone removed from the W3C right away
15:07:16 <wendyreid> ... continued instances of dispute leads to escalating consequences
15:07:25 <wendyreid> ... this is what I've seen, but I want feedback on what I have done so far
15:07:32 <wendyreid> ... first, change the name to dispute resolution
15:07:49 <wendyreid> ... goal of getting people to work together to correct behaviours and to be able to continue to work together
15:07:56 <wendyreid> ... repairing issues as opposed to discipline
15:08:10 <wendyreid> ... mentioned of the CEPC, resolutions will be based on this
15:08:25 <wendyreid> ... it's expected for individuals to begin to resolve on their own
15:08:36 <wendyreid> .... everyone involved in a dispute process is expected to
15:08:59 <wendyreid> ... confidentiality is a question, how much is needed, this is an open question
15:09:12 <wendyreid> ... investigation starts when a mediation is impossible
15:09:22 <wendyreid> ... like an assault or when resolution attempts have failed
15:09:32 <wendyreid> ... timebox of when complaints should be raised
15:10:04 <wendyreid> ... you should raise quickly in order to collect evidence or to ensure witnesses are contacted
15:10:12 <wendyreid> ... again, for discussion
15:10:26 <wendyreid> ... details about investigator is TBD
15:10:37 <wendyreid> ... W3M likely needs to be involved and ombuds, etc
15:10:48 <wendyreid> ... second section is the types of things that can be done
15:10:51 <wendyreid> ... types of mediation
15:11:14 <wendyreid> ... be clear about the issue, avoid abusive language, be clear about outcomes
15:11:24 <annette_g> typo: chang for change
15:11:44 <wendyreid> Liz_Lutgendorff: who is comfortable with what communication
15:11:49 <wendyreid> ... email, in person, etc
15:12:09 <wendyreid> ... mediation is a strong preference, a neutral third party to help talk through the problem
15:12:15 <wendyreid> ... coming to a healthy resolution
15:12:23 <wendyreid> ... who would be these mediators
15:12:40 <wendyreid> ... in the UK we have a service, but as an org, do we want to train people, is there an international org we can work with?
15:12:47 <wendyreid> ... does it cost money, can we pay for it?
15:12:55 <wendyreid> ... goal is to have actions for parties to adhere to
15:13:10 <wendyreid> ... and serves as a guideline for future disciplinary action if needed
15:14:17 <wendyreid> ... first part is solving the problem individually or with one other party
15:14:21 <wendyreid> ... standard best practice
15:14:32 <wendyreid> ... mediation is preferred, because it's less punitive
15:14:43 <annette_g> "raise a written complaint using and submit..." - missing word?
15:14:45 <wendyreid> ... going directly to disciplinary can lead to someone feeling attacked
15:15:20 <wendyreid> ... going directly to an investigation can yield unfavorable results too if situation is unclear or poorly documented
15:15:43 <wendyreid> ... with investigations, in general, it's raise a complaint, someone investigates, interviews both sides of the grievance
15:16:05 <wendyreid> ... they deliver a report of the situation and an overview of the proposed resolution or verdict
15:16:14 <wendyreid> ... not sure how this would work in the W3C
15:16:40 <wendyreid> ... if you accumulate too many of these complaints, would there be a process to remove people from groups, from roles, from the organization
15:16:55 <wendyreid> ... crowd-sourcing an appropriate disciplinary action
15:17:02 <wendyreid> ... who would do this, this is an open question
15:17:22 <wendyreid> ... disciplinary actions would be communicated by W3M
15:17:32 <wendyreid> ... should we keep these confidential, open?
15:17:38 <wendyreid> ... 1. corrective action
15:18:01 <wendyreid> ... escalates from there
15:18:09 <wendyreid> ... written warning, in person warning
15:18:14 <wendyreid> ... final warning
15:18:23 <wendyreid> ... culminates in termination of membership
15:18:31 <tzviya> q+ to recommend adding suspension
15:18:34 <wendyreid> ... there's areas of question
15:18:38 <wendyreid> ... this is the gist of it
15:18:45 <wendyreid> tzviya: Thanks Liz
15:18:55 <wendyreid> ... I wanted to add suspension as a step
15:18:55 <sheila> q+
15:18:59 <Judy> q+
15:19:02 <tzviya> ack me
15:19:02 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to recommend adding suspension
15:19:10 <tzviya> ack sheila
15:19:12 <wendyreid> Liz_Lutgendorff: The others could be removal from a group, removal from a role, etc
15:19:22 <wendyreid> sheila: Thanks for this, it's great that its in progress
15:19:27 <wendyreid> ... it feels directionally right
15:19:29 <wendyreid> ... questions
15:19:39 <wendyreid> ... use of the word/phrase "you need to"
15:19:49 <wendyreid> ... is this a direction or best practice
15:20:01 <wendyreid> ... I think it should be the latter, and maybe soften the language
15:20:19 <wendyreid> ... there is a part where communication method is mentioned to be best for both parties
15:20:31 <wendyreid> ... if I'm the aggrieved party, that might be frustrating to me
15:20:53 <wendyreid> ... the last thing, I like emphasizing the individual conversation step
15:21:10 <wendyreid> ... I'm afraid of it feeling like an expectation that everyone starts with resolving themselves
15:21:27 <tzviya> q+ to add a clause about making sure that your safety comes first
15:21:34 <wendyreid> ... could we add a clarification to ensure people know there's more options if the issue is sensitive or challenging to someone
15:22:16 <wendyreid> Liz_Lutgendorff: I'll add that. In my experience as a union rep, the issues had a broad range, when someone raises an issue, the other party doesn't often agree
15:22:29 <wendyreid> ... so the only way to get a resolution is to meet them partway
15:22:41 <wendyreid> ... do we want a process that doesn't resolve issues, or meets people where they are
15:22:44 <wendyreid> ... it's not ideal
15:23:04 <wendyreid> ... it's a challenge to engage people in these situations
15:23:30 <wendyreid> ... we have a lot of documentation, people can look at chat records etc
15:23:41 <wendyreid> ... one person's micromanagement is another's performance management
15:23:52 <wendyreid> ... the challenge is also to find a third party who is neutral to assess this
15:24:12 <tzviya> ack Judy
15:24:13 <wendyreid> sheila: If we focus on that process, we just need to soften the language for the aggrieved party
15:24:20 <wendyreid> Judy: Few comments, document accessibility
15:24:32 <wendyreid> ... if someone is bringing a document to share it in multiple ways
15:24:49 <wendyreid> ... it's not accessible to scroll through on screen
15:24:58 <wendyreid> ... if someone could forward me the document that would help
15:25:25 <wendyreid> ... that said, could you scroll back to the point about assault
15:25:49 <wendyreid> Liz_Lutgendorff: I don't have a reference for it, it's just from my government docs
15:25:55 <wendyreid> Judy: Assault is relevant here
15:26:04 <wendyreid> ... even when mostly virtual as we are now
15:26:21 <wendyreid> ... my sense is that drawn heavily from an employment context
15:26:43 <wendyreid> ... two concerns, the measures discussed that are most pertinent where there's an employment contect
15:26:49 <wendyreid> s/contect/context
15:26:56 <wendyreid> ... thank you for the thorough document
15:27:05 <wendyreid> ... context matching would be a good next step
15:27:13 <wendyreid> ... volunteer vs employment
15:27:32 <wendyreid> ... resources are a challenge here too, we're not resourced to handle the policies we do have
15:27:45 <wendyreid> ... we're going to need to be advocates to properly resource this
15:28:00 <wendyreid> Liz_Lutgendorff: I agree, it's a mix of employment and general dispute guidance in the legal sense
15:28:07 <wendyreid> ... usually these things are because of a legal dispute
15:28:12 <wendyreid> ... from a volunteer position
15:28:20 <wendyreid> ... we have a similar one from when I worked with a charity
15:28:34 <wendyreid> ... some of the points are the same, the way you compel people's behaviour do change
15:28:41 <wendyreid> ... the sticks are the things you can take away
15:29:01 <wendyreid> ... if we can realistically impose these sticks is an issue
15:29:11 <tzviya> ack me
15:29:11 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to add a clause about making sure that your safety comes first
15:29:11 <wendyreid> ... can we ban someone from being a chair without publishing?
15:29:35 <wendyreid> tzviya: I agree with Sheila's comments about emphasizing safety
15:29:42 <wendyreid> ... stressing that saffety comes first
15:29:58 <wendyreid> ... putting things in writing, etc
15:30:03 <wendyreid> ... to respond to Judy
15:30:17 <wendyreid> ... this does look like an employee setting, they're more robust
15:30:29 <wendyreid> ... but I do have some examples from things like the contributor covenant
15:30:32 <tzviya> https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/2/1/code_of_conduct/
15:30:42 <wendyreid> ... they've added consequences since we've referenced it
15:30:49 <tzviya> https://xoxofest.com/guide/conduct
15:31:09 <wendyreid> ... some leave the consequences open, up to staff, I don't think this works for us
15:31:19 <wendyreid> ... I think what Liz has presented is close to what we want
15:32:13 <wendyreid> Liz_Lutgendorff: There are levels to t his
15:32:19 <wendyreid> ... what is realistic for us
15:32:24 <wendyreid> ... investigations take a lot of time
15:32:31 <wendyreid> ... it's done by staff, you're trained to do it
15:32:57 <wendyreid> ... by default, I don't think it should be done by W3C, we should hire out, but it might not be ffeasible
15:33:06 <wendyreid> ... if we do use people internally, how do we not overwhelm them
15:33:19 <wendyreid> ... resolution can take a long time as well
15:33:37 <wendyreid> ... you might have to have further interactions with the individual being investigated
15:33:57 <wendyreid> ... there's a balancing act between getting resolution and investigating fully
15:34:06 <wendyreid> tzviya: I don't think there's an easy answer here
15:34:20 <wendyreid> ... I do think we need to figure out who will be responsible
15:34:26 <annette_g> q+
15:34:29 <wendyreid> ... we do need to take this to W3M
15:34:37 <wendyreid> ... we need budget and to determine cost
15:34:50 <wendyreid> ... being responsible for this could impact other work
15:35:03 <wendyreid> ... third parties, who that would be, costs
15:35:18 <wendyreid> ... confidentiality, if we want to understand repeat offenders, we need that information
15:35:23 <tzviya> ack annette_g
15:35:27 <wendyreid> Liz_Lutgendorff: I haven't thought about information management
15:35:48 <wendyreid> annette_g: I think it makes sense to seek out people outside of W3C to do the mediation
15:35:55 <wendyreid> ... the document may not need to mention that
15:36:01 <wendyreid> ... the logistics get handled at another time
15:36:23 <wendyreid> Liz_Lutgendorff: Luckily the CEPC, it aligns with general working practices on discrimination in the workplace
15:36:42 <wendyreid> ... many firms would be focused on the specific laws in a jurisdiction
15:36:55 <wendyreid> ... we'd need to find someone who understand overlaps or international contexts
15:37:09 <Judy> q+
15:37:10 <wendyreid> ... some companies are outsourced HR firms, who specialize in this
15:37:13 <wendyreid> ... work on retainer
15:37:16 <tzviya> ack Judy
15:37:28 <wendyreid> Judy: Just in response, W3C is not currently a single legal entity
15:37:32 <wendyreid> ... we're working on that now
15:37:45 <wendyreid> ... in our current state we're an agreement between 4 hosts
15:38:03 <wendyreid> ... the employees can have things handled by the HR departments of the hosts
15:38:11 <wendyreid> ... there's challenges, different contexts
15:38:33 <wendyreid> ... tzviya and I started looking at outsourced dispute resolution, not a lot of progress but worth looking at
15:38:45 <wendyreid> tzviya: wseltzer and Judy, would you know if the ??? we're looking at could handle this?
15:38:50 <wendyreid> Judy: Not sure
15:39:01 <tzviya> s/???/PEO
15:39:03 <wendyreid> ... wseltzer had an idea
15:39:23 <wseltzer> q+
15:39:40 <wendyreid> wseltzer: The question that we should be recognizing
15:39:51 <tzviya> ack ws
15:40:12 <wendyreid> ... whether we do it through HR or other, we as a group need to make a recommendation to W3M that it's important to community health to do this
15:40:25 <wendyreid> ... the budget is a management problem
15:40:51 <wendyreid> ... it's important for us here to hear the concerns, raise them to colleagues and the importance of it being an independent function
15:41:00 <wendyreid> ... our job here is to raise it's importance
15:41:08 <wendyreid> ... I'll take it back to management
15:41:16 <wendyreid> tzviya: Next steps, Liz to edit the docs
15:41:42 <wendyreid> Liz_Lutgendorff: I'll edit it, please feel free to share any other docs you know, like equivalent docs in your jurisdiction I can add them
15:41:51 <wendyreid> ... I'll do some research on cost of mediation
15:41:59 <wendyreid> ... there might be other options
15:42:09 <wendyreid> ... there was changes to legislation here so there's more in that space
15:42:18 <wendyreid> ... please share if you know any
15:42:35 <wendyreid> ... I'll do a second draft, maybe in two meetings' time
15:42:38 <Judy> [JB: whatever we choose, it will need to be internationally facing, not nationally only]
15:42:52 <wendyreid> tzviya: Having a sense of how many of these per year would help as well
15:42:57 <wendyreid> Liz_Lutgendorff: How big is W3C?
15:43:07 <Jemma> thanks for all your work on draft, Liz.
15:43:09 <wendyreid> tzviya: There's about 400 members, but some are one person, some have hundreds
15:43:41 <wendyreid> wseltzer: I don't have a number, 600 people to TPAC, 5x times that who participate in WGs and even more participating in CGs or other activities
15:43:59 <wendyreid> Liz_Lutgendorff: If anyone is comfortable, could you ask your HR teams?
15:44:14 <wendyreid> ... how many disciplinary investigations do you run a year
15:44:27 <wendyreid> ... could give us a number
15:44:51 <wendyreid> ... I had a caseload of about 200-400/year, and that was just union members
15:45:15 <wendyreid> tzviya: Judy made the point that we need to look at international standards and solutions
15:45:34 <wendyreid> ... we're very international
15:45:51 <wendyreid> ... please share any resources you have
15:46:07 <wendyreid> ... next meeting should be about the next steps for the ombuds program
15:46:20 <wendyreid> ... AOB?
15:46:43 <wendyreid> ... in the last meeting, I talked about the possibility of closing out some issues in the IDCG/PWE GH repos
15:46:50 <wendyreid> ... if anyone would like to take some time to review issues
15:46:51 <sheila> happy to help, tzviya!
15:47:25 <sheila> thanks all!
15:47:25 <wendyreid> ... thanks everyone!
15:47:44 <tzviya> rrsagent, make logs public
15:47:51 <tzviya> rrsagent, make minutes
15:47:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/18-pwe-minutes.html tzviya