15:52:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
15:52:39 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/01/14-pbgsc-irc
15:52:41 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:52:42 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
15:53:04 <Ralph> present: Wolfgang, Ralph
15:53:36 <wolfgang> wolfgang has joined #pbgsc
15:59:32 <Ralph> present+ Cristina
15:59:36 <wendyreid> present+
15:59:49 <Ralph> present+ Tzviya
15:59:57 <Ralph> present+ Avneesh
16:00:17 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
16:01:02 <Ralph> present+ Zheng, George, Ivan
16:01:02 <mateus> mateus has joined #pbgsc
16:01:02 <avneeshsingh> avneeshsingh has joined #pbgsc
16:01:12 <avneeshsingh> present+
16:01:19 <Ralph> present+ WendyReid
16:02:00 <Ralph> present+ Liisa
16:02:34 <GeorgeK> GeorgeK has joined #pbgsc
16:02:48 <GeorgeK> present+
16:03:14 <Ralph> zakim, next item
16:03:14 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Welcome Wolfgang to the Committee -- taken up [from Ralph]
16:03:27 <Ralph> chair: Tzviya
16:04:15 <Ralph> Tzviya: Wolfgang will be joining Mateus and Zheng to co-chair the Publishing CG
16:04:43 <Ralph> Wolfgang: my focus is on XML and XML technology, in particular conversions using XSLT, etc.
16:04:54 <Ralph> ... I am co-author of the IDPF glossaries spec
16:05:05 <Ralph> ... happy to assist and chair the CG
16:05:18 <Ralph> ... I use XML every day
16:05:25 <Ralph> ... even a bit of XProc
16:05:31 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
16:05:33 <Ralph> ... my main tool is XSLT
16:05:40 <Ralph> ... I use a lot of XQuery too
16:06:20 <Ralph> Tzviya: great that you're joining us
16:06:25 <Ralph> zakim, next item
16:06:25 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Report on the planned BG Commmunity Day event -- taken up [from Ralph]
16:06:39 <Ralph> Tzviya: we'd like to hear more about the plans
16:06:51 <Ralph> Liisa: we're doing 2 90-minute sessions on February 1
16:07:04 <Ralph> ... extending each of our regular sessions by 30 minutes
16:07:21 <Ralph> Cristina: we will invite the CEO of @@ ; a platform for delivering digital comics and manga
16:07:30 <Ralph> ... digital comics is moving in Italy and elsewhere
16:07:41 <Ralph> ... there is a European project on digital comics
16:07:57 <Ralph> ... I will contact someone from Japan to speak on that as well
16:08:06 <zheng_xu__> zheng_xu__ has joined #pbgsc
16:08:11 <Ralph> ... it is one of the fastest-growing markets in publishing, particularly in trade
16:08:23 <zheng_xu__> present+
16:08:25 <Ralph> Liisa: we're also working on pulling togther some panel discussion on education
16:08:29 <Ralph> ... working on finalizing speakers
16:08:32 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:08:47 <Ralph> ... and looking to have an open dialog on other topics, with some breakouts
16:08:51 <Ralph> ... welcome ideas on topics
16:08:52 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:09:03 <Ralph> Bill: does "education" refer to higher ed, k12, or both?
16:09:07 <tzviya> q+ to ask when agenda will be available
16:09:16 <tzviya> ack me
16:09:16 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask when agenda will be available
16:09:17 <Ralph> Liisa: what's happened in the last 2 years; where is the business going?
16:09:23 <Cristina> Cristina has joined #pbgsc
16:09:41 <Cristina> present+
16:09:56 <Ralph> Tzivya: Karen Myers asked if an agenda could be published asap, even a draft, so she can recruit more participants
16:10:03 <Ralph> Liisa: we'd like to record the session
16:10:17 <Ralph> ... not the breakout roons
16:10:21 <Ralph> s/ns/ms/
16:10:54 <Ralph> ... hoping for 3-4 breakouts
16:10:56 <mateus> present+
16:10:57 <GeorgeK> q+
16:11:02 <Ralph> ... want one of us in each breakout to facilitiate
16:11:06 <wendyreid> q+
16:11:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:11:34 <Ralph> ... hoping to let people choose which breakout they attend
16:11:34 <tzviya> ack GeorgeK
16:11:36 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbgsc
16:11:58 <Ralph> George: the global certified accessible content that's hitting higher ed is beautiful stuff
16:12:06 <Ralph> ... I can reach out to Michael Johnson if you like
16:12:10 <Ralph> Liisa: that would be great
16:12:13 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to George
16:12:19 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
16:12:24 <Ralph> George: I'll give him some background and ask him to get in touch with Liisa directly
16:12:38 <Ralph> WendyR: in Zoom breakout rooms the captioning doesn't work
16:13:02 <Ralph> Tzviya: ideas for breakout topics?
16:13:37 <Ralph> ... breakouts tend to work out well when they follow up on the discussion that you just had
16:13:43 <Ralph> ... there's a lot of opinions on comics
16:13:55 <Ralph> ... perhaps breakouts following up on comics and textbooks
16:14:06 <tzviya> ack Ralph
16:14:06 <Ralph> ... if the presenters are talking about the technical parts
16:14:26 <GeorgeK>  q+
16:14:31 <Ralph> Ralph: +1
16:14:37 <tzviya> ack ge
16:14:47 <Ralph> George: we're about publishing, not just EPUB
16:15:05 <Ralph> ... there's the issue of journals, which are really important and many companies have 'download as EPUB'
16:15:13 <Ralph> ... I wonder if that area needs to be explored more
16:15:23 <Ralph> ... and a11y in journals is something that needs attention
16:15:34 <zheng_xu__> q+
16:15:55 <Ralph> Tzviya: [with Wiley hat] individual journal articles aren't very popular to users as EPUBs
16:16:20 <Ralph> ... maybe for a future Community Day we could invite someone from Atypon to talk about journal articles
16:16:33 <Ralph> ... most publishers make their journal articles available as HTML
16:16:52 <Ralph> ... best practices for HTML would be a good future discussion
16:16:58 <tzviya> ack zh
16:17:12 <Ralph> George: publishers also offer download as PDF, so ... as EPUB should happen
16:17:26 <Ralph> Zheng: I can talk about conversion from HTML to EPUB as a use example
16:17:34 <liisamk> q+
16:18:10 <Ralph> ... is there any common general use example that I can try out?
16:18:27 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:18:28 <Ralph> ... to demonstrate my conversion tool -- which is on GitHub
16:18:49 <Ralph> George: we'd be very interested in looking at that and see how well it conforms to the a11y specs
16:18:58 <tzviya> ack li
16:18:58 <Ralph> ... metadata might be hard
16:19:11 <Ralph> Zheng: yes; I'd like to look at that
16:19:51 <Ralph> Liisa: we'd wondered if there's room in the Community Day to understand more about news and newspapers and how people are dealing with that in their workflow, best practices, etc.
16:19:59 <Ralph> ... that might be a future Community Day
16:20:13 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:20:21 <Ralph> ... WaPo had been present in the BG but hasn't attended recently
16:20:21 <tzviya> q+
16:20:34 <Ralph> Bill: look at PLOS; many journals are open access now
16:21:04 <Ralph> -> https://plos.org/ PLOS
16:21:21 <Ralph> ... another organization is Hyper@@; a news media SDO
16:21:33 <tzviya> ack me
16:21:37 <Ralph> ... I could provide many potential speakers for news if you wish
16:21:47 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/Hyper@@/IPTC
16:21:49 <Ralph> Tzivya: news is very different from [scholarly] journals
16:22:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Tzviya
16:22:18 <Ralph> ... the way content is generated is very different
16:22:30 <Ralph> ... several of us know lots of people in each world
16:22:35 <Ralph> ... they're treated very differently
16:22:51 <Ralph> ... EPUB has not taken off in either of these and is not likely to
16:23:04 <Ralph> ... we can discuss if they are looking for further specifications
16:23:26 <Ralph> Liisa: Daihei has said that he's hearing in Japan that they are happy with EPUB and are looking for business opportunities in content
16:23:38 <Ralph> ... that's why they're trying to understand how all this other stuff happens
16:23:42 <Ralph> ... looking at workflows
16:23:46 <zheng_xu__> The tool I mentioned to convert html to epub: https://github.com/gardenia-corp/wyse
16:23:49 <dauwhe> present+
16:23:55 <tzviya> ack Ralph
16:24:24 <Ralph> Tzviya: we have some interesting ideas for future seminars
16:24:31 <Ralph> zakim, next item
16:24:31 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Community Group user stories -- taken up [from Ralph]
16:24:51 <wendyreid> scribe+
16:25:22 <wendyreid> mateus: At the CG meeting this week, Zheng, Wolfgang and i introduced a new idea for collaborating
16:25:32 <wendyreid> ... anyone who is documenting requirements for new publishing use cases
16:25:41 <wendyreid> ... the BG could be one of those collaborations
16:25:52 <wendyreid> ... one idea is to share a template that documents use cases
16:26:03 <wendyreid> ... to do that, document requirements as user stories
16:26:20 <wendyreid> ... so what we would like to do in the CG is to collect use cases as they come up
16:26:26 <wendyreid> ... like when we learn of a new idea
16:26:36 <wendyreid> ... when we file them, we do so using a common template
16:27:13 <wendyreid> ... it's a statement that goes like "As a [user], I want to [something] so that [goal]"
16:27:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/14-pbgsc-minutes.html Ralph
16:27:39 <wendyreid> ... an example "as an instructor, I want to annotate my text with my students, so I can drive engagement in my course"
16:27:48 <wendyreid> ... unified language in the requirements
16:28:04 <wendyreid> ... and in a way that avoids us jumping to a solution and instead focuses on the problems and centres the user
16:28:10 <wendyreid> ... who will benefit
16:28:22 <wendyreid> ... might help us target specific parts of the community better
16:28:38 <wendyreid> ... we'd like to work with the BG on use cases we already know about
16:28:47 <wendyreid> ... we'll document them in the CG GH as individual issues
16:28:59 <wendyreid> ... beyond that, we can start identifiying how to dig into these issues
16:29:07 <wendyreid> ... incubate, document more details, etc
16:29:34 <wendyreid> mateus: Hopefully we can use this in our upcoming meetings
16:29:36 <tzviya> ack Ralph
16:29:39 <wendyreid> Ralph: This is brilliant
16:29:51 <wendyreid> ... it's important to teach W3C community how to do this kind of user story
16:29:59 <wendyreid> ... too many of us go to solutions
16:30:08 <wendyreid> ... kudos to the cg
16:30:14 <tzviya> https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/user-experience-mapping/9781787123502/92d21fe3-a741-49ff-8200-25abf18c98d0.xhtml
16:30:16 <Ralph> scribe+
16:30:28 <Ralph> Tzviya: this is sometimes called the Connextra template ^^
16:30:34 <liisamk> q+
16:30:41 <Ralph> s/go to/instantly go to/
16:30:49 <mateus> q+
16:30:52 <Ralph> ... we also give such examples from EPUB
16:31:12 <Ralph> ... "as a reader I'd like to be able to jump to chapter 7 so that ..."
16:31:22 <tzviya> ack li
16:31:28 <Ralph> ... that might be done by a ToC but we don't say "as a reader I want a Table of Contents"
16:31:56 <Ralph> Liisa: did Daihei reach out to schedule time next week for us to work through scheduling a joint CG+BG meeting and move forward on some of these cases?
16:31:58 <tzviya> ack ma
16:32:03 <Ralph> Mateus: not yet
16:32:11 <Ralph> ... but I have some availability next week
16:32:29 <Ralph> Liisa: noon ET on Wednesday?
16:32:43 <Ralph> Mateus: unfortunately that doesn't work for me
16:32:55 <tzviya> q+
16:32:56 <Ralph> ... as Ralph noted, not everyone is used to this way of framing problems
16:33:28 <Ralph> ... there's definitely some back-and-forth in writing user stories and I don't view that as a problem
16:33:48 <Ralph> ... the CG is happy to help people write stories in this way
16:34:01 <tzviya> ack me
16:34:08 <Ralph> ... and we're planning to write some of the EPUB examples as user stories to help people get used to thinking in this way
16:34:09 <wolfgang> +1 to Mateus
16:34:50 <Ralph> Tzviya: and others of us can help in directing the conversation to the actual problem to solve rather than a particular solution
16:34:56 <liisamk> q+
16:35:00 <Ralph> ... and "user" can be "machine" too; a reading system
16:35:03 <tzviya> ack liisamk
16:35:16 <Ralph> Liisa: this gets me back to something we talked about here several months ago
16:35:39 <Ralph> ... I'm still seeing questions out there questions on what is good a11y for EPUBs on very specific content scanearios
16:35:45 <Ralph> ... and not having a place for a broad dialog
16:35:58 <Ralph> ... e.g. we made some changes to the way we deal with indices
16:36:19 <tzviya> q+
16:36:20 <Ralph> ... we noticed that sometimes an index entry goes to a [foot|end] note
16:36:31 <zheng_xu__> q+
16:36:36 <Ralph> ... we wondered what is the right thing for a11y; what is the right place to go?
16:36:37 <tzviya> ack me
16:36:43 <Ralph> ... we need a place to have that discussion
16:36:53 <Ralph> Tzviya: it's fine to have that discussion in the BG
16:37:01 <Ralph> ... we haven't had a place to discuss best practices
16:37:21 <Ralph> ... best practices might be different for different cases
16:37:33 <Ralph> ... I'm not sure I want to commit to writing best practices
16:37:44 <wendyreid> q+
16:37:55 <Ralph> ... but DPUB-ARIA is taking up some work on how to use ARIA properly
16:38:00 <tzviya> ack zheng_xu__
16:38:05 <Ralph> ... how to tag an endnote properly with ARIA may take years
16:38:15 <Ralph> Zheng: that's a good example to define a use case
16:38:28 <Ralph> ... I'm happy to help transforming that into a use case
16:38:39 <tzviya> s/DPUB-ARIA is taking up some work on how to use ARIA properly/ARIA APG will add examples from DPUB-ARIA
16:38:46 <Ralph> ... it would be a good start to write it down as a story
16:38:50 <Ralph> ... in this kind of format
16:39:00 <tzviya> ack we
16:39:02 <Ralph> ... and document it as a GitHub issue
16:39:24 <Ralph> WendyR: this sounds like something that is in the realm of the CG A11y task force
16:39:36 <Ralph> ... we're doing some similar work in the FXL TF, but only for fixed layout
16:39:50 <GeorgeK> q+
16:39:52 <Ralph> ... we've put together some use cases for the different types of fixed layout
16:39:55 <tzviya> ack ge
16:40:00 <Ralph> ... it sounds like a fun CG project
16:40:11 <Ralph> George: having a user story around the index issue I think would be great
16:40:28 <Ralph> ... I would imagine that comments added for a11y would add more detail to the use case
16:40:40 <Ralph> ... no only do you want to get there but you want to get back to where you left off reading
16:40:49 <Ralph> ... I'm not seeing that in most reading systems now
16:41:00 <Ralph> ... how do I go back; breadcrumbs or history
16:41:02 <tzviya> q+ to mention making these user stories accessible
16:41:09 <avneeshsingh> q+
16:41:13 <Ralph> ... one use case could spawn more use cases and all usually have an a11y componet
16:41:14 <tzviya> ack avneeshsingh
16:41:19 <liisamk> q+
16:41:38 <Ralph> Avneesh: George is on target; we have to be sure that the use cases work for people with disabilities
16:42:27 <Ralph> ...  our thinking is that the Publishing CG is a good place for a broader discussion on prioritizing dpub-aria work
16:42:42 <Ralph> ... @@ doesn't work because of screen reader buffering issues
16:42:54 <tzviya> ack me
16:42:54 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to mention making these user stories accessible
16:42:54 <Ralph> ... there are technical issues that don't allow us to achieve what we want
16:43:15 <Ralph> Tzviya: I attended some a11y training that talks about building a11y into the template
16:43:26 <Ralph> ... I can try to incorporate what I learned into writing those templates
16:43:28 <tzviya> ack liisamk
16:44:06 <Ralph> Liisa: maybe this opens an opportunity for us; what PRH considers best practice might not be what others consider best practice, even though both are accessible
16:44:27 <Ralph> ... maybe there's an opportunity to share what people think they have solved and what problems they are running into
16:44:51 <GeorgeK> q+
16:44:53 <Ralph> ... do you push forward with what you think are good practices despite it not always working in all reading systems
16:45:10 <tzviya> ack ge
16:45:34 <Ralph> George: thinking of some things I want to see in digital publishing; I could spend a half day filling out templates
16:46:02 <Ralph> ... I wonder if there are already use cases documented that people could review to avoid duplication
16:46:10 <zheng_xu__> q+
16:46:17 <avneeshsingh> huge pile of web publications use cases
16:46:23 <tzviya> ack Zhe
16:46:32 <Ralph> Zheng: good point
16:46:48 <Ralph> ... we can check out how to group the user stories
16:47:08 <Ralph> ... the CG meeting this week was trying to talk about user stories
16:47:19 <Ralph> ... a next step coudl be to look at how to group them
16:47:38 <Ralph> ... to define user stories in a format more efficiently and reduce duplication
16:47:58 <wendyreid> Ralph: As I said at the start, I'm glad you're taking this approach
16:48:04 <mateus> q+
16:48:04 <wolfgang> q+
16:48:05 <wendyreid> ... what is your dream of how this will ramp up?
16:48:13 <Ralph> Ralph: what is your dream about how this will ramp up?
16:48:37 <Ralph> Mateus: my dream is that we have every idea, every problem that publishing is trying to solve with digital publishing technology and standards document in this form
16:48:55 <Ralph> ... so we're really understanding use cases from a very practical perspective
16:49:13 <Ralph> ... one of our challenges is that we know what we'd like to do but we haven't had a shared language to communicate
16:49:34 <Ralph> ... once we have a shared way of documenting use cases it will become clear who can help us evolve them further
16:49:59 <Ralph> ... if we have a user story documented, regardless of what solution(s) come forward, it will help us know who can help us
16:50:15 <Ralph> ... e.g. the A11y TF might be the best place to move a particular use case for discussion
16:50:24 <Ralph> ... at the least it will stimulate conversation, as it did here
16:50:41 <Ralph> Wolfgang: my dream is to start with the customer
16:51:05 <Ralph> ... we started working with design thinking, taking hours to talk with customers -- what are your needs?  what do you wish to get?
16:51:09 <mateus> +1
16:51:13 <Ralph> ... get more customer/user-centric
16:51:16 <wendyreid> +1 to wolfgang!!
16:51:17 <tzviya> +1
16:51:18 <avneeshsingh> q+
16:51:33 <Ralph> ... our customers don't think in terms of spec and programming; they think in terms of issues
16:51:39 <Ralph> ... we should do our best to cater for them
16:51:50 <Ralph> ... after that we work on finding solutions
16:51:56 <zheng_xu__> +1
16:51:57 <tzviya> ack av
16:52:14 <Ralph> Avneesh: it's fairly good to have user stories and customers there
16:52:24 <wendyreid> q+
16:52:28 <Ralph> ... but the structure of W3C doesn't involve users so much; we talk about browser engines, developers, ...
16:52:43 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
16:52:49 <Ralph> ... are we expecting the Publishing CG to have more engagement with users or that the publishers will represent the users?
16:52:56 <Ralph> WendyR: Avneesh is not wrong
16:53:16 <Ralph> ... I 100% agree
16:53:27 <Ralph> ... we use "user" a lot but almost never involve users in spec writing
16:53:45 <tzviya> q+ to ask if BG can involve users
16:53:49 <Ralph> ... part of this is that we do not have access to users; we don't have a user advocacy group
16:53:59 <Ralph> ... I'd love to start this
16:54:42 <Ralph> ... I'd love to try, and encourage others to try, to see how much user request information I can filter from my own daily contact with people who read books
16:54:59 <Ralph> ... most platforms have information about what users are asking for and what frustrations they have
16:55:01 <zheng_xu__> q+
16:55:25 <Ralph> ... a lot of comments we get are specific; "I don't like your login page", others are very general "I don't like this book"
16:55:36 <Ralph> ... I'd love to see how we might share some of that information
16:56:02 <tzviya> ack tz
16:56:02 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask if BG can involve users
16:56:07 <ivan> q+
16:56:17 <Ralph> Tzviya: thanks for raising this point, Avneesh
16:56:23 <Ralph> .. this template is still excellent
16:56:33 <Ralph> ... I'm hoping the BG has more access to users
16:56:44 <Ralph> ... some of the BG and WG participants have closer access to users
16:57:18 <tzviya> ack zhe
16:57:19 <Ralph> ... I hear from customers that 2FA gets in their way all the time
16:57:27 <Ralph> ... it would be valuable to document that
16:58:00 <Ralph> Zheng: how we define a story; "as a reader ..." or "as a publisher ..." or "as a content creator ..."
16:58:12 <Ralph> ... the different roles can be expressed in different user stories
16:58:44 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:58:45 <Ralph> ... if we can define "user" as "who needs a feature", that helps to get things clear
16:59:09 <Ralph> Ivan: I am a little worried that we will get lots of use cases and to make some manageable recommendation out of that is not an easy task to do
16:59:19 <Ralph> ... many groups have done this in various use cases in the past
16:59:27 <ivan> -> Web Publications Use Cases and Requirements https://www.w3.org/TR/2019/NOTE-pwp-ucr-20190813/
16:59:44 <Ralph> ... it's complicated to distill from them some tangible directions
17:00:04 <Ralph> ... years ago we attempted to try to find a structure to distill information out of use cases
17:00:30 <Ralph> ... we might be looking for something more elaborate than the use cases in ^^
17:00:56 <Ralph> ... we have to keep in mind how to get a manageable collection of things
17:01:08 <Ralph> Tzviya: in the ^^ document each use case is very compllicated
17:01:23 <Ralph> ... we can break them down into simpler stories
17:01:36 <Ralph> [adjourned]
17:01:41 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
17:01:41 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Wolfgang, Ralph, Cristina, wendyreid, Tzviya, Avneesh, Zheng, George, Ivan, avneeshsingh, Liisa, GeorgeK, zheng_xu__, mateus, Bill_Kasdorf,
17:01:44 <Zakim> ... dauwhe
17:01:44 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:01:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/14-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
17:01:47 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:01:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
17:39:46 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
17:39:46 <RRSAgent> I see no action items