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15:09:09 <Steven> trackbot, start telcon
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15:09:23 <Steven> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:09:34 <Steven> Meeting: ixml Group Teleconference
15:09:51 <Steven> Date: 11 January 2022
15:09:55 <Steven> Chair: Steven
15:12:03 <Steven> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2022Jan/0061
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15:30:53 <Steven> Present: Norm, John, Dave, Bethan, Steven
15:31:54 <Steven> Present+Michael
15:32:05 <Steven> Present+Tom
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15:32:50 <Steven> Topic: Actions
15:32:57 <Steven> ACTION (2021-08-005): Tom and MSM to come with a pragma proposal.   [Done]
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15:33:12 <Steven> ACTION (2021-10-001): Steven to draft a mediatypes proposal (see
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15:33:12 <Steven> https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/issues/6).
15:33:33 <Steven> ACTION (2021-12-001): Steven to add his tests to github  [Done]
15:33:33 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
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15:33:48 <Steven> ACTION (2021-12-002): Michael to write test catalog for Steven's
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15:33:48 <Steven> tests [Done]
15:34:06 <Steven> ACTION (2021-12-003): Steven to add strings proposal to spec [Done]
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15:34:52 <Steven> ACTION (2021-12-004): Steven implement the resolution for issue 19 [Done]
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15:35:04 <Steven> ACTION (2021-12-005): Steven implement resolution for issue 18 on XML
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15:35:04 <Steven> names. [Done]
15:35:44 <Steven> Topic: Implementations
15:35:51 <Steven> Norm: I'm writing my own parser
15:35:58 <Steven> ... ongoing
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15:36:20 <Steven> ... results for next month
15:36:46 <Steven> Steven: I added a command-line way of calling
15:37:27 <Steven> Tom: Jparser not yet highly performant
15:37:43 <Steven> Dave: What should we expect by June?
15:37:52 <Steven> Tom: At least two
15:38:15 <Steven> Norm: I will have an implementation by June
15:38:31 <Tom> s/Jparser/JayParser
15:38:34 <Steven> ... integrated in XProc and Saxon
15:39:02 <Steven> Michael: I have an implementation, not performant (yet).
15:39:11 <Steven> ... faster by June
15:39:29 <Steven> ... also planning Prolog version
15:39:47 <Steven> Dave: What level confidence by June?
15:40:05 <Steven> Michael: I am confident
15:40:36 <Steven> Tom: Mine needs a rewrite, not sure if it will be ready by June
15:40:57 <Steven> Steven: I'm confident with mine.
15:42:16 <Steven> Dave: I am concerned with the stability of the spec for June release.
15:43:09 <Steven> Topic:  Pragmas proposal
15:44:13 <Steven> Tom: We have spent some weeks on the proposal.
15:44:58 <Steven> Michael: Basic requirement is that they say things to processors without interfering with other processors.
15:45:35 <Steven> ... Syntactically distinct. Some way for processors to recognise whether they are being addressed.
15:45:48 <Steven> ...l USes square brackets and namespaces.
15:45:57 <Steven> s/I US/Us/
15:46:39 <Steven> ... Syntax is straightforward
15:47:43 <Steven> Tom: We had an idea of using attributes for pragma data
15:48:06 <Steven> Michael: Where do pragmas occur, and what do they mean?
15:52:07 <Steven> ... identifying what pragmas need to do sets a minimum requirement.
15:53:46 <Steven> ... I care about the XML representation of grammars, and so don't want pragmas to be wherever comments can be.
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15:56:14 <Steven> Steven: It sounds like this proposal is addressing use cases that should be separately addressed.
15:57:29 <Steven> Michael: A pragma should be allowed to respond in any way it wants to pragmas, including stopping and starting a game.
15:57:36 <Steven> Steven: I disagree.
15:58:29 <Steven> Michael: I think you are right to be concerned.
15:58:32 <Steven> ...
15:59:01 <Steven> ... one of the things we want pragmas for is to provide a way to support functionality that hasn't been standardised.
16:00:03 <Steven> ... extension behaviour allows you to gain experience.
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16:01:01 <Steven> ... conformance requirements mean that processors should be able to ignore all pragmas.
16:01:34 <Steven> Dave: What should a non-pragma processor do with a pragma?
16:02:13 <Steven> Michael: Not trip over them.
16:04:43 <Steven> Steven: What would change if iso the [ we used for instance {! ?
16:05:10 <Steven> Michael: It makes pragmas heavier.
16:05:46 <Steven> Tom: I don't believe that should be a priority
16:06:42 <Steven> Steven: I really don't like using the syntax for character sets for pragmas
16:07:18 <Steven> Michael: FOr my use cases I want a single character for pragmas.
16:07:23 <Steven> s/FO/Fo/
16:08:26 <Steven> Norm: we could have two representations, a single character unicode, and a multicharacter ascii.
16:08:34 <Steven> Tom: I would like ASCII
16:09:30 <Steven> John: When you're presenting the pragma data to the processor, you're parsing the rules
16:09:58 <Steven> ... it's tempting to get structure inside the pragma.
16:10:08 <Steven> ... but maybe it should be up to the processor
16:10:34 <Steven> ... you can work with a reserved comment structure
16:10:45 <Steven> ... as long as you can nest
16:11:06 <Steven> Dave: It smells like a pre-parse
16:12:09 <Steven> John: I find a prgam in my namespace, I pick up the arguments, a string, I can recursively parse that string against my pragma parser
16:12:20 <Steven> s/parser/grammar/
16:12:32 <Steven> s/prgam/pragma/
16:14:02 <Steven> Michael: I have presented the proposal; we want syntax distinct, we want namespaces
16:14:27 <Steven> Steven: I don't see the conclusion
16:15:59 <Steven> ... also it seems a lot of mechanism for what I saw as a simple need
16:16:35 <Steven> Norm: Question -- suppose you subtracted the QName stuff, and adding namespaces later.
16:16:54 <Steven> Tom: I wouldn;t support that
16:16:58 <Steven> s/;/'/
16:17:22 <Steven> Tom: I want a namespace part
16:18:14 <Tom> Correction: I am not saying that we need a QName namespace part
16:18:29 <Tom> I am saying that we need some way of avoiding namespace collision
16:18:48 <Steven> Steven: Namespace collision or pragma collision?
16:18:53 <Tom> Happy to hear an alternative proposal to XML namespaces!
16:19:07 <Tom> pragma collision
16:19:43 <Steven> Michael: I don't think that allowing namespaces there is any degree of complication.
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16:21:00 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:21:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/11-ixml-minutes.html Steven
16:25:17 <Steven> Bethan: The pragma communicates with the processor, does it have to understand the input or only serialise it?
16:25:59 <Steven> Tom: If you mean writing to disc, no, but providing an XML representation, yes.
16:26:50 <Steven> Bethan: so the use of a pragma implies changing the result of the parser.
16:27:07 <Steven> Tom: It may
16:27:11 <Steven> Michael: Not will.
16:28:21 <Steven> Tom: Two issues so far: 1 - syntax (that's the easy one)
16:29:36 <Steven> ... 2 - issue of namespaces. There is a wider issue with this.
16:30:27 <Steven> Steven: Namespaces is an issue that needs to be addressed separately, and I'm worried by making it a part of prgmas, we block future development before we've even thought about it.
16:31:08 <Steven> Dave: A statement of belief is that we need to meet more often.
16:31:53 <Steven> Tom: Weekly at this time?
16:33:08 <Steven> Tom: maybe deal with namespaces first, or ask Steven to suggest an alternative.
16:33:40 <Steven> ACTION: Dave to propose terminology to separate document inputs and outputs.
16:33:40 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
16:34:30 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:34:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/11-ixml-minutes.html Steven
16:35:55 <Steven> s/l US/Us/
16:35:59 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:35:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/11-ixml-minutes.html Steven
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