14:38:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #silver
14:38:22 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/01/07-silver-irc
14:38:25 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:38:26 <Zakim> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
14:38:35 <jeanne> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
14:38:35 <jeanne> present:
14:38:35 <jeanne> chair: Shawn, jeanne
14:38:35 <jeanne> present+
14:38:36 <jeanne> zakim, clear agenda
14:38:36 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
14:38:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/07-silver-minutes.html jeanne
14:38:36 <jeanne> q?
14:38:36 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:38:54 <jeanne> agenda+ Issue 503
14:38:54 <jeanne> agenda+ How to integrate ATAG and UAAG into the structure?
14:38:54 <jeanne> agenda+ Volunteers to update the Method documents
14:50:49 <jeanne> agenda+ resuming work on Errors
14:56:49 <shadi> shadi has joined #silver
14:58:41 <janina> janina has joined #silver
14:59:50 <JenniferS> JenniferS has joined #silver
15:00:00 <JenniferS> present+
15:00:21 <Chuck_> Chuck_ has joined #silver
15:00:51 <MichaelC> present+
15:01:04 <ToddL> ToddL has joined #silver
15:01:17 <ToddL> present+
15:01:43 <JF> JF has joined #silver
15:01:51 <JF> agenda?
15:02:00 <JF> Present+
15:02:06 <SuzanneTaylor> SuzanneTaylor has joined #silver
15:02:08 <janina> present+
15:02:37 <Chuck_> present+
15:02:51 <shadi> present+
15:03:22 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #silver
15:03:41 <Makoto> present+
15:04:15 <SuzanneTaylor> present+
15:04:30 <bruce_bailey> bruce_bailey has joined #silver
15:04:35 <bruce_bailey> present+
15:04:37 <Rachael> present+
15:04:41 <bruce_bailey> scribe: bruce_baile
15:04:44 <jeanne> scribbe list -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Scribe_List
15:04:59 <kirkwood> present+
15:05:07 <bruce_bailey> Jeanne: please sign up to scribe if you can
15:05:17 <sarahhorton> sarahhorton has joined #silver
15:05:21 <bruce_bailey> ... we will set up rotating list
15:05:26 <JenniferS> That's awesome! Thank you, Jeanne!
15:05:29 <sarahhorton> present+
15:05:32 <bruce_bailey> ... put your name in exempt list or email jeanne
15:06:19 <Chuck_> agenda?
15:06:22 <bruce_bailey> jeanne:  adjusting agenda to add error work
15:06:26 <jeanne> zakim, take up item 4
15:06:26 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- resuming work on Errors -- taken up [from jeanne]
15:06:56 <jeanne> Schedule -> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yzR1H0SnNFRELGchb_BJr4Necsrj6xVjDF1n7Tc0kTc/edit#gid=0
15:07:02 <bruce_bailey> Jeanne:  Sarah asks if we can take up work on errors, pls see schedule
15:07:06 <janina> q+ to ask if there's a wiki page for errors? a doc to start with?
15:07:16 <bruce_bailey> ... also available from wiki page
15:07:37 <bruce_bailey> ... we do not have content migration scheduled until Q3 2022
15:07:46 <sarahhorton> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Error_Handling
15:07:46 <Rachael> q+ to speak to my personal perspective
15:07:47 <Chuck_> q?
15:08:00 <janina> q- Thanks, Sarah!
15:08:07 <janina> q-
15:08:11 <bruce_bailey> ... so it comes down to group members to think about what you would like to see first out of the gate
15:08:14 <JF> Q+
15:08:25 <Chuck_> ack Rach
15:08:25 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to speak to my personal perspective
15:08:26 <jeanne> q?
15:08:33 <bruce_bailey> ... many items are planned to be marked as "exploratory"
15:09:09 <bruce_bailey> Rachael:  Not as chair, but we need a few groups to pick up the work to see how it all goes
15:09:14 <JenniferS> q+
15:09:54 <bruce_bailey> ... do not do a ton of content because, while critical, it will be iterative and a learning process
15:10:09 <bruce_bailey> ... embrace process of change
15:10:23 <Chuck_> ack JF
15:10:30 <Rachael> and that was my personal perspective (no chair hat)
15:10:31 <bruce_bailey> ... critical, but labor intensive and may be painful or frustrating
15:10:55 <bruce_bailey> JF:  Q, per spreadsheet, squares with black X are activity?
15:10:57 <Chuck_> ack Jen
15:11:06 <bruce_bailey> Rachael:  Yes.
15:11:28 <Rachael> Chair hat on - I am in the process of reworking/cleaning the schedule up so there will be a cleaner version in two weeks. We will review at the joint meeting.
15:11:29 <bruce_bailey> Jennifer:  My group (headings) will not be an early volunteer...
15:11:40 <bruce_bailey> ... we are still struggling with our work flow
15:12:06 <bruce_bailey> ... it is all good, greater empathy, just timing is bad for us to be early with this activity
15:12:17 <sarahhorton> q+
15:12:28 <bruce_bailey> ... headings has been early prototype with earlier drafts, but not this time
15:12:47 <bruce_bailey> Jeanne asks Sarah about Errors group
15:13:36 <bruce_bailey> Sarah:  The idea of iterating, going back to the drawing board a few times, is not orthogonal to our work
15:13:50 <ToddL> q+
15:13:56 <Chuck_> ack sara
15:13:57 <bruce_bailey> ... i do agree that Errors could be a good candidate for this activity
15:13:59 <jeanne> ack sar
15:14:03 <Chuck_> ack Todd
15:14:07 <jeanne> ack tod
15:14:27 <bruce_bailey> ToddL agrees with SarahHorton
15:14:50 <sarahhorton> q+
15:15:04 <Chuck_> ack sara
15:15:28 <bruce_bailey> Jeanne and Sarah are looking for additional leadership and activity for Errors group.
15:15:31 <ToddL> q+
15:15:58 <bruce_bailey> Sarah:  Errors is looking for a chair, and this is good timing for stepping in.
15:16:07 <Chuck_> ack Todd
15:16:44 <bruce_bailey> Jeanne agrees and can solicite AGWG.
15:17:00 <bruce_bailey> ToddL tentatively volunteers.
15:17:35 <bruce_bailey> Jeanne will still ping the list, because more active contribute is welcome in any case.
15:17:40 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
15:17:40 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Issue 503 -- taken up [from jeanne]
15:19:02 <bruce_bailey> Jeanne:  Rachael and I have had some conversation about how we might incorporated elements from ATAG and UAAG....
15:19:23 <bruce_bailey> .... idea is that we need elements from player/browers
15:19:41 <bruce_bailey> ... first is video player and captioniong
15:20:00 <bruce_bailey> ... 2nd was authoring tools support
15:20:16 <bruce_bailey> ... we did get feedback from first call public working draft
15:20:21 <jeanne> https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/503
15:20:51 <bruce_bailey> ... just one issue for now, but it is quite detailed (from IBM)
15:21:01 <bruce_bailey> [Jeanne reads]
15:21:37 <bruce_bailey> We support the incorporation of ATAG and UAAG methods, provided the applicability to user agent vs authoring tool vs author is crisp and clear. This helps provide a bigger picture of how all of the accessibility pieces fit together, so a reader can get an understanding of how all of the parts need to be in place for the accessibility to work properly. However, in the current examples it isn’t clear what aspects of the requirements a[CUT]
15:22:15 <janina> q+
15:22:21 <bruce_bailey> However, in the current examples it isn’t clear what aspects of the requirements are the responsibility of content/application owner vs. browser/user agent owners.
15:22:34 <bruce_bailey> Flattening the hierarchy of Levels (A, AA, AAA) into single set of requirements is contradictory to previous WCAG 2.x conformance level guidance that says: “It is not recommended that Level AAA conformance be required as a general policy for entire sites because it is not possible to satisfy all Level AAA Success Criteria for some content.
15:22:47 <bruce_bailey> Jeanne:  Only the first bullet point is captioning
15:23:11 <bruce_bailey> ... we will edit this issue
15:23:48 <JenniferS> Propose (if possible) an edit to the phrase above: because it is not possible — at this point in time, with the existing technology — to satisfy all Level AAA Success Criteria for some content
15:24:30 <shadi> q+
15:24:34 <bruce_bailey> Janina:  It seems to me that this has a straight forward implementation, we add labels to IDs.
15:24:43 <bruce_bailey> ... doc would be more functional.
15:24:46 <Chuck_> ack Jan
15:25:00 <Chuck_> ack sha
15:25:44 <bruce_bailey> Jeanne: (to jennifer) not addressing AAA issue at this point.
15:25:49 <janina> q+
15:26:22 <bruce_bailey> Shadi:  Though request was for GL content -- not a feature of the doc itself
15:26:37 <bruce_bailey> Jeanne:  We may have limitation on scope.
15:26:57 <jeanne> Method for ATAG in FPWD -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2020/methods/text-alternative-editable/
15:26:57 <bruce_bailey> MichaelC:  We are up for re-charter, so we can put that on the table.
15:27:02 <Chuck_> q?
15:27:05 <bruce_bailey> q+
15:27:58 <bruce_bailey> Shadi:  Was the question about marking requirment for UA or AT -- I understood concept for Silver was to combine some of these concempts...
15:28:10 <Chuck_> ack Jan
15:28:36 <bruce_bailey> We know there is a user need -- and sometimes that is content and sometimes this is UA
15:29:09 <shadi> q+
15:29:15 <bruce_bailey> Janina:  Context is methods, so focus on ID and Lables is appropropriate
15:29:23 <JenniferS> +1 to Janina — great points and clarity
15:29:34 <bruce_bailey> ... by the time we get to CR, API may have a practical implimentation.
15:29:35 <Rachael> q+ to ask if this is a key question that should be brought to AG as part of this topic for discussion
15:30:16 <bruce_bailey> Jeanne:  The charge is how either the content or UA or AT might support the user need, so it could be clear at the end.
15:30:21 <janina> scribe: janina
15:30:25 <Chuck_> ack bru
15:30:40 <bruce_bailey> q-
15:30:40 <janina> bruce_bailey: Asking for clarification? Please check what I captured
15:31:08 <janina> jeanne: Looks good
15:31:15 <bruce_bailey> [scribe asks for double check of notes]
15:31:23 <Chuck_> ack sh
15:32:05 <bruce_bailey> scribe: bruce
15:32:33 <Chuck_> ack Rach
15:32:33 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to ask if this is a key question that should be brought to AG as part of this topic for discussion
15:32:54 <bruce_bailey> Shadi says that he agree Janina comments do comport with his own.
15:33:57 <bruce_bailey> Rachael:  With the subgroups i am leading, i have been making efforts to keep tracking on core questions and process.
15:34:15 <sarahhorton> q+
15:34:19 <janina> q+ an example for Rachael's point is auto playing audio
15:34:31 <janina> q+
15:34:35 <shadi> s/Shadi says that he agree Janina comments do comport with his own/Shadi thanks Janina for the clarification
15:35:03 <bruce_bailey> Racheal:  Core question is when something needs to happen -- is that UA or content ?
15:35:25 <bruce_bailey> Jeanne:  Another core question is what needs to be in our charter.
15:35:29 <SuzanneTaylor> q+
15:35:35 <Chuck_> ack sarah
15:35:47 <bruce_bailey> ... are there other core questions for itegrating atag and uaag ?
15:37:11 <bruce_bailey> Sarah:  Another core question is that there will be times where multiple methods are applicable (e.g. decorative image within AT) then I need to evaluate more than one thing...
15:37:43 <bruce_bailey> ... for example with a tweet -- there might be text alternative edititable -- but is the alt text there?
15:37:57 <SuzanneTaylor> another core question might be: "Are we willing to commit to writing each method to target just one of Content, UA or AT?" (This might assist in keeping the language of the methods themselves clear and simple. In addition to helping with the 'crispness' requested in this issue.)
15:38:04 <Chuck_> ack Jan
15:38:14 <bruce_bailey> ... Janina gave the example with flashing.  If the UA prevents flashing -- is that meeting the requirment?
15:39:05 <bruce_bailey> Janina:  My example was a little different.  Another example is audio play audio setting in UA works on one site, but not another.
15:39:45 <Chuck_> ack Suz
15:39:49 <bruce_bailey> ... users use multple devices, so how can they tell?  The mere existance of a plug in may not be sufficient.
15:40:26 <bruce_bailey> Suzanne:  Are we willing to re-write methods for the for the different context?
15:40:46 <janina> +1 from me, too
15:41:07 <bruce_bailey> ... That can be very helpful for the content providers, but may be redundant on our end as we write methods.
15:41:11 <jeanne>  https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2020/methods/text-alternative-editable/
15:41:30 <bruce_bailey> Michael Cooper endorses that approach from a structural perspective.
15:42:15 <bruce_bailey> Jeanne:  We had though we were clear that method was specific to AT but IBM did not read it that way...
15:42:31 <bruce_bailey> ... we also had similar example with alternative text.
15:42:34 <Chuck_> q?
15:42:47 <bruce_bailey> [see link]
15:43:28 <bruce_bailey> Jeanne:  Does group agree with aproach of revisiting each method for AT and UA?
15:43:43 <Chuck_> q+
15:43:58 <bruce_bailey> Janina: agreed that this makes sense from a database approach
15:44:08 <Chuck_> ack Chu
15:44:17 <Chuck_> +11111111
15:44:33 <bruce_bailey> MichaelC:  the approach works for the CMS we anticipate deploying -- but not ready yet
15:45:16 <bruce_bailey> Chuck and MC agree that this approach is not merely aspirations.
15:46:01 <Rachael> learning how to learn
15:46:04 <bruce_bailey> Rachael:  Please includes pros/cons with proposals, supporting artifacts, etc.
15:46:25 <bruce_bailey> ... again, we do not have clarity for what this looks like at end.
15:46:49 <bruce_bailey> Jeanne:  Be flexible.
15:47:03 <bruce_bailey> Core Questions, Discussion, Proposed Solution
15:47:24 <bruce_bailey> ... as we continue, we can make this more robust
15:47:42 <bruce_bailey> [Rachael and Chuck concure with approach]
15:47:56 <bruce_bailey> Jeanne:  We may take this up next week.
15:48:04 <jeanne> Topic: Children's Accessibility
15:48:53 <Rachael> q+ to talk about next two joint group meetings
15:49:00 <bruce_bailey> Jeanne:  Guest presentation
15:49:03 <jeanne> presentation next week on Children's Accessibility Community Group
15:49:36 <jeanne> Topic: Next Joint Tuesday Meetings
15:49:54 <bruce_bailey> Rachae:  Not set in stone, but plan for next joint meeting (w AGWG) in first hour...
15:50:14 <SuzanneTaylor> Accessibility for Children Community Group - Suzanne Taylor and Maud Stiernet will present
15:50:14 <bruce_bailey> ... weeks after will be more oriented towards 2.2 work
15:50:48 <bruce_bailey> ... if silver folks can plan to stay longer for those calls please
15:50:57 <Chuck_> s /2.2/3.0/
15:51:28 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
15:51:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/07-silver-minutes.html jeanne
15:51:32 <bruce_bailey> Jeanne:  see you next tuesday or next friday!
15:52:56 <MichaelC> s/scribe: bruce_baile/scribe: bruce_bailey/
15:53:12 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
15:53:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/07-silver-minutes.html MichaelC
15:56:00 <MichaelC> s/scribe: bruce/scribe: bruce_bailey/
15:56:00 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
15:56:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/07-silver-minutes.html MichaelC
15:57:12 <bruce_bailey> s /scribe: bruce/scribe: bruce_bailey/
15:57:24 <bruce_bailey> rrsagent, make minutes
15:57:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/07-silver-minutes.html bruce_bailey
16:25:40 <bruce_bailey> s/scribbe list/scribe list/
16:25:49 <bruce_bailey> rrsagent, make minutes
16:25:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/07-silver-minutes.html bruce_bailey
16:49:57 <bruce_bailey> rrsagent, bye
16:49:57 <RRSAgent> I see no action items