18:00:14 RRSAgent has joined #aria 18:00:14 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/01/06-aria-irc 18:00:18 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:00:18 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn 18:00:27 agendabot, find agenda 18:00:27 jamesn, OK. This may take a minute... 18:00:27 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/1d223877-730c-446f-bfa9-2e9222902112/20220106T130000 18:00:27 clear agenda 18:00:27 agenda+ Happy New Year 🎉 18:00:27 agenda+ New Issue Triage 🐜 18:00:30 agenda+ New PR Triage 🎁 18:00:32 agenda+ Deep Dive planning 🤿📆 18:00:35 agenda+ Clarify usage of aria-haspopup 🥤🆙 18:00:37 agenda+ Inconsistency between native and ARIA listboxes when implicit aria-selected is provided 🕵🏻 18:00:40 agenda+ summary element role mapping ☀️🗺 18:00:44 present+ Joanmarie_Diggs 18:04:07 aaronlev has joined #aria 18:05:23 present+ valerie young 18:06:35 sarah_higley has joined #aria 18:06:44 scribe: jcraig 18:06:46 present+ 18:06:53 sohara has joined #aria 18:06:55 zakim, take up item 1 18:06:55 agendum 1 -- Happy New Year 🎉 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:06:59 zakim, close item 1 18:06:59 agendum 1, Happy New Year 🎉, closed 18:07:00 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:07:00 2. New Issue Triage 🐜 [from agendabot] 18:07:03 zakim, take up item 2 18:07:03 agendum 2 -- New Issue Triage 🐜 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:07:54 present+ 18:07:57 https://bit.ly/3qN2bcz 18:08:34 harris has joined #aria 18:08:42 present+ 18:08:50 asociationlist has a long name https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1662 18:09:33 Requesting extended review period of ARIA 1.2 CR2 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1664 18:10:09 previous already addressed 18:10:21 Listitem in a list as a possible aria-activedescendant ID reference target for combo box role https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1668 18:10:29 jamesn: Scott? 18:10:43 Scott: need to talk through this with Stefan 18:11:01 sarah_higley: seems similar to secondary actions 18:11:11 jamesn: Sarah, will you follow up in issue? 18:11:18 sarah_higley: will do 18:11:27 jamesn: leaving unmilestoned 18:11:45 A role specifically for pagination https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1669 18:12:39 Scott: argument from the WICG discourse is for consistency and i18n... 18:13:24 jamesn: from thread, this could be an attribute rather than a role 18:14:06 Scott: someone thought HTML should implement... type=something for navigation? 18:14:42 s/asociationlist has a long name/associationlist and related roles have tediously long names/ 18:15:39 jamesn: can we push this back? convo has stalled... role="navigation" aria-label="pagination" may do enough already unless more specific suggestion provided 18:15:46 Scott to comment in issue 18:16:06 New role for splitbuttons https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1670 18:16:31 s/New role for splitbuttons/Topic: New role for splitbuttons/ 18:16:44 s/associationlist/Topic: associationlist/ 18:18:49 jamesn: no opposition... can be grouped buttons, but maybe not necessary 18:19:37 sarah_higley: Microsoft moving away from grouping buttons as a single tab stop 18:20:45 jcraig: Mac never has combined grouped button (Segmented Controls) as a single tab stop unless it's used as a mutually exclusive selection like radio group or tabgroup 18:21:10 jamesn: milestoned to 1.4 for further discussion 18:21:20 potentially related to secondary actions rather than needing a new role 18:21:23 zakim, close item 2 18:21:23 agendum 2, New Issue Triage 🐜, closed 18:21:24 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:21:24 3. New PR Triage 🎁 [from agendabot] 18:21:32 zakim, take up item 3 18:21:32 agendum 3 -- New PR Triage 🎁 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:21:53 New PR Triage 🎁 https://bit.ly/3EUy9Jc 18:22:40 Topic: abstract roles remove 'name from' https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1667 18:23:06 Scott: noticed inconsistencies 18:23:18 jamesn: do folks approve? care? 18:24:01 Scott: alternative I saw would be to match what inherits those, but that's not always a 1:1 match, like nameform:author 18:25:02 jamesn: currently I recall nameFrom defined on all (even if defined as prohibited or n/a) 18:26:34 s/Listitem in a list as /Topic: Listitem in a list as / 18:26:57 s/A role specifically for pagination/Topic: A role specifically for pagination/ 18:27:38 jamesn: joanie any problem with removing? this seems editorial. No objections. Will remove after Peter and I review. 18:27:58 Topic: add note to aria-roledescription https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1666 18:28:49 jamesn: needs reviewers, jcraig and sarah_higley 18:29:29 jamesn: next two editorial. done... Will merge 18:29:37 zakim, close item 3 18:29:37 agendum 3, New PR Triage 🎁, closed 18:29:38 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:29:38 4. Deep Dive planning 🤿📆 [from agendabot] 18:29:47 zakim, take up item 4 18:29:47 agendum 4 -- Deep Dive planning 🤿📆 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:30:02 Deep Dive planning 🤿📆](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) 18:30:10 https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/f0174998-3f13-4942-904a-8a3881741cda 18:31:30 Is this related to User Actions https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/762 18:31:47 sarah_higley: a little different. would expose visible buttons 18:31:59 s/Is this related/jcraig: Is this related/ 18:32:17 Zakim, close item 4 18:32:17 agendum 4, Deep Dive planning 🤿📆, closed 18:32:18 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:32:18 5. Clarify usage of aria-haspopup 🥤🆙 [from agendabot] 18:32:25 zakim, take up item 5 18:32:25 agendum 5 -- Clarify usage of aria-haspopup 🥤🆙 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:32:26 [Clarify usage of aria-haspopup 🥤🆙](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1024) 18:33:18 Scott: come up recently b/c of related work in OpenUI 18:33:53 in those cases, any sort of thing could "pop up" but the value set is limited 18:35:58 IA2 mappings are awkward... why do we need the limited value set? do we need to specify what type of thing may popup? if it's almost but not quite a menu or dialog, does ARIA need to be the bottleneck, or can the author just aria-haspopup="freeform text?" 18:36:06 q+ 18:36:43 q+ 18:36:51 Scott: people are using this in new ways... authors are confused, for excample list of links is not a menu 18:36:54 ack me 18:38:08 from experience, sighted users don't even understand the difference between a menu popup and listbox popup after having seen them and interacted with them 18:38:36 s/aria-haspopup="freeform text?"/aria-haspopup="bikeshed" (some unspecified)/ 18:39:10 ack aaronlev 18:39:15 q+ 18:39:36 ack me 18:40:17 aaronlev: historically ARIA had values mapped to the MSAA values, may no longer be necessary 18:40:30 q+ 18:41:38 spreading (unnecessarily?) this legacy complexity to HTML element proposal 18:41:43 ack sarah_higley 18:43:07 sarah_higley: In theory, I'm not opposed to generalizing the use case, but what is the effect if we "lose" existing AT behavior popup menu? 18:43:49 Scott: baggage values: true, false, menu, other? 18:43:55 q+ 18:44:14 ack me 18:44:17 sarah_higley: would change long-standing AT experience 18:44:28 ack me 18:45:14 the "oh no we effed up, start over" approach 😄 18:47:15 could deprecate aria-haspopup in favor of a new similar aria-popup=true? (still would have author confusion but allow legacy behavior) 18:48:17 sarah_higley: I increasingly like the idea to deprecate and start over 18:49:19 James Craig: ackno self 18:49:48 s/ackno self /fully acknowledges self doubt on this suggestion/ 18:50:52 Scott: problem, any aria-haspopup value now makes it into a menu button (jc: I this limited to Windows AT?) 18:51:08 [scribe missed some quick chatter] 18:51:17 q+ 18:52:39 agenda? 18:52:46 sarah_higley: not just an forms mode issue, also it's a menu button 18:52:51 zakim, drop item 7 18:52:51 agendum 7, summary element role mapping ☀️🗺, dropped 18:53:02 agenda? 18:53:44 Sarah: preserve only the menu mapping, and changing mappings for other values to not map to menu button 18:54:32 aaronlev: could include aria-controls to the element type in the DOM 18:54:40 q- 18:54:47 jamesn: the controlled "popup" may not be in the DOM yet 18:54:55 next steps? 18:55:12 Scott: need to talk some more before proposal 18:55:26 zakim, close item 5 18:55:26 agendum 5, Clarify usage of aria-haspopup 🥤🆙, closed 18:55:27 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 18:55:27 6. Inconsistency between native and ARIA listboxes when implicit aria-selected is provided 🕵🏻 [from agendabot] 18:55:32 zakim, take up item 6 18:55:32 agendum 6 -- Inconsistency between native and ARIA listboxes when implicit aria-selected is provided 🕵🏻 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:55:46 [Inconsistency between native and ARIA listboxes when implicit aria-selected is provided 🕵🏻](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1661) 18:56:37 If a user agent provides an implicit aria-selected value for an option, the value SHOULD be true if the option has DOM focus or the listbox has DOM focus and the option is referenced by aria-activedescendant. Otherwise, if a user agent provides an implicit aria-selected value for an option, the value SHOULD be false. 18:57:43 joanie: as long as the user is interacting with a listbox, AT can use internal selection, but if user not interacting, that no longer applies 19:01:00 Scott: text was added due to awkwardness of allowing list boxes to have aria-checked=true 19:01:18 Sarah: @@@ 19:01:32 Scott: purposeful divergence 19:01:47 sarah_higley: default selection on focus already existed though 19:02:31 topic: adjourned 19:02:55 me: we were trying to have a difference in default behavior of checked vs. selected, and write text for selected that matched the already-existing behavior in browsers for selection in ARIA listboxes 19:03:18 rrsagent, make minutes 19:03:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/01/06-aria-minutes.html jamesn 19:04:03 bkardell_ has joined #aria 19:04:50 agenda? 19:44:22 jongunderson has joined #aria 20:23:20 Laurence has joined #aria