<LisaSeemanKest> Agenda: over the hols, look at https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/wiki module 2 and 3. WHat should come next? what should be included?
<Jennie> scribe: Jennie
<LisaSeemanKest> https://www.sonoviastore.co.il/
(Group discussed an orientation call)
*Note: storm continues to blow. If scribing stops for more than 2 minutes, can someone jump in? Just in case I lose power.
* thank you Rain!
Lisa: New actions page -
draft
... Starting with introductions
Le: I am Le. I work for TPGI. I
live in Texas, US
... I am excited about this group
... I am an accessibility engineer
Lisa: Next Rachael will give us a
summary of Accessibility Guidelines (once she rejoins)
... As members speak, please give a brief introduction of
yourself
<LisaSeemanKest> next item
*she is rejoining now
Rachael: Accessibility Guidelines
(AG) had a meeting this week to talk about processes
... and how they could be improved
... COGA appreciated
... We will have a follow up meeting in January to finish
talking about it
... If people are available to participate it would be much
appreciated
... You can also email the moderator
Lisa: I think this is a very important conversation
Jennie: +1000
Lisa: Thank you John for being on
the call
... and Jennie
<LisaSeemanKest> next item
Lisa: Rain and I have tried a new
actions page
... We normally have one in the Wiki
<LisaSeemanKest> https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#
Lisa: a lot of people could not
edit freely in the wiki
... Nobody had used the action request page
... We have one page that is a Google Doc
... People can mark things as done without editing markup
... You may want to change your bookmarks
... Left side of document: actions, requests
... Links to current documents has the key documents
... Also have links to useful for current tasks
... Even if scratch pad stuff
... How do people feel about this as opposed to using the
wiki?
<Rain> Lisa: asked Jennie if this works based on her prior insightful feedbac
<Rain> Jennie: spoke to say that this is fine, currently curious how this works for others
John K: Potentially going forward this will be good for easily being able to add information
scribe: I think it will be a good way to go
Shawn: I have a barrier with
Google Docs. I use text to speech sometimes. Big docs I have to
copy into another format
... Simple sentences and tasks are fine
Lisa: Many of us do not prefer
the other methods available
... I think we will have to have a meeting on tooling
John K: Keeping it concise sounds like it works for Shawn
scribe: and if it is structured
well
... I think that - in the style of how we put information
... And I fully agree with him
... I think that is an important take away
Lisa: I think we will have to
revisit the tooling
... We can discuss it in the new year
... We have been relying on Github for editing documents, and
that is going to be a problem
Julie: I want to suggest moving
up higher in the document the requests from other groups
... The member action items - that doesn't change as much
<kirkwood> +1
Julie: More time sensitive
requests up high might be helpful
... The subgroups and tasks - which gives an overview, that
might be helpful to have higher up too
<kirkwood> to requests from other groups put higher up.
Lisa: I am doing that now. We may
have to change this
... What do people think about it?
... You are going to have to scroll down to find your name and
what you need
John K: that is a good point
scribe: I do like that idea of us
having that priority of feedback in a certain amount of time
high up
... But I see the issue if action items drop down below the
fold.
Lisa: We can move it back and forth
Shawn: I would rather not go back
to the wiki
... The Google Doc is not that bad
<Rain> a?
Shawn: Even the wiki I need to
get used to going to it, finding it
... I can find a way around it
Julie: Would it help to use jump links?
Rain: If we simply make everyone
names a header/heading
... Then it will show up in the left sidebar, and be a
link
... Then people will not have to scroll as much
Jennie: We could add the shortcut for find, and some reminders about where to find names in the left panel
Lisa: We could also order the names alphabetically
John K: +1
Lisa: This is easy to redo and
change
... Please let us know if you want us to change anything
<LisaSeemanKest> next item
Rain: Thank you for doing this
work
... This was great that you did this
Lisa: The mobile devices
<LisaSeemanKest> comments for mobile :https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lq0OZ4qwyLppH4qOcr1o8IaREg_HX276uye4lFq4Df4/edit#heading=h.yzlqnfeuwzw4
Lisa: They have a bunch of
documents
... that they have been collecting
... We would like to get it done over January
... It is also in the actions - from other groups
<LisaSeemanKest> next item
<LisaSeemanKest> next item
Lisa: Another reminder: please sign up for when you would like to scribe
<LisaSeemanKest> close item 4
<LisaSeemanKest> next item
Julierawe: You are sharing with
us the request for mobile feedback
... What is a good strategy for when COGA should submit
internally on the document so we have time to share it outside
of COGA
... Working backwards from their deadline
Lisa: It will have to be the 1st
or 2nd meeting in January
... If people can review before this, that would be great
... If not, we can send out a reminder for the week after
Julierawe: Is there a deadline from the Mobile Task Force?
<LisaSeemanKest> next item
Rain: No. They are a small task force. We are helping them by moving forward with this, but no firm deadline just yet.
Julierawe: I request we do not ask for too many requests the first week of January since many of us are taking time off the week before
Lisa: But some of us are
not
... If anyone has time they can
... Understood that people are taking breaks. That is
fine
... Nobody is expected to work over the next two weeks
<LisaSeemanKest> next item
<LisaSeemanKest> ackj
<LisaSeemanKest> next item
Lisa: They gave us an extension
for the 5th of January but this is difficult
... This is about how people with disabilities use the
web
... They have a survey
... It won't take long
... The links are all web pages that have been divided
separately
... They have asked for comments on one page
... One page is an overview page
... Each page isn't really long
... The personas are not big
... There are only a few that I have reviewed: Blair, Luis,
Preety, Yun
... For those with time to review: what would be a good way to
collect the feedback?
... Survey?
... If people find it complicated would it be easier if I
copied the personas into a Google Doc for people to comment
on?
... Or are people comfortable with this survey?
Julierawe: I actually found this
to be a really complicated document.
... I agree there are not that many pages, but I spent about a
full day looking over all these pages
... These do not follow the COGA best practices
...Example: structure on pages is not clear
... You see a summary, then section contents
... Are you supposed to skip over the section contents?
... To me there is disjointed structuring
... The same happens on some other pages
... There is a lot of non-literal language
... They also have lengthy paragraphs that are hard to track
the logic
... Most concerning to me is the cognitive page
... They have a definition for learning disabilities, one for
developmental disabilities - these are pretty good
... Then they have perceptual disabilities - what Lisa
sometimes refers to as specific learning disabilities
... They are giving it a lot of prominance here
... It is not in Content Usable, or in the DSM
<JohnRochford> +1 to Julie's
commentary ...Example: (Diagnostic and Statistical
Manual)
... To me this is really tricky
<kirkwood> +1 ...Example: I feel like there is a lot of attention that as a group we could help make this more helpful
Lisa: I am looking at the survey
- I don't see that page on the list of pages we were asked to
review
... Maybe it is an old page?
... Maybe it is an early draft?
... It could be a placeholder page
kirkwood: Can we have exact links to what we are to review?
Lisa: yes
<LisaSeemanKest> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/How-People-Use-Web_2021-Dec/
Lisa: This is the survey
... They have links to specific pages
... Then they have a question on each one
... Question 3: How People with Disabilities Use the Web
... Has a link
... After reviewing, try to go back to the tab with the survey
to answer the question
... I opened the survey in a new window
... I opened the tabs in that window, and closed the tab when I
had done the response
... Because they want feedback before our next meeting, we have
asked for a bit longer
... How do people feel about using this survey?
... Ideally I would like us to go over it together but we only
have 20 minutes left
... I think we should make sure people are comfortable filling
this out themselves
julierawe: Can we review box
14?
... We need clarity
... I don't know based on your comment - your understanding is
different than mine
... I thought we were to look at all the sections, including
the cognitive section
Le: It looks the same to me
Lisa: Then mine was incomplete
julierawe: In my feedback I made
specific recommendations, but I tried to emphasize that as a
member of the task force I have concerns
... And I would like the whole task force to review
<LisaSeemanKest> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/How-People-Use-Web_2021-Dec/
Lisa: You could comment that you
are finding the survey difficult, and want the information
reviewed on a COGA call
... If that is the only comment you enter, that's fine
ShawnT: I see a note that there has been no editorial changes - that they are just asking about the structure of the page, not what they say
John K: I understand why you are saying that - I am confused by that too
julierawe: High up on the survey
page, they say "please complete a thorough review. This is
supposed to be a last call"
... To me, box 14 says we have already finalized the wording.
In this go round we just have changed the structure
... I interpret this the opposite of ShawnT
... They are just tinkering with the structure thinking they
have all the words worked out
ShawnT: I agree with that
<JohnRochford> +1 to Rain's commentary
ShawnT: Having the disconnect
between having "this is the final" and every single one of
them
... The survey should repeat that
... By the time I get to 14 I might have forgotten that
part
Rain: I have a question for the
group regarding timeline
... They are expecting this is a final round
... When we asked for an extension, they said January 4th
... When Lisa asked for an even further extension they said
no
... Because the group is saying we don't feel comfortable as
is
<JohnRochford> Sorry, that was not Rain. I am not recognizing voices. Would you please say your name before talking?
Rain: The next step could be to ask them to come to the 2nd meeting in January as a joint meeting
I think the next meeting is the 13th of January
scribe: Lisa I am happy to reach out and ask if we think that is a good next step
Lisa: I am not sure of the
agenda
... I thought I had filled in the survey, but then Julie points
out things I have missed
... The idea of doing full reviews of each one
... Some of us will get parts, others will get other
parts
... I think we need a dedicated meeting where we collect all
the comments
... In a 2 hour meeting, or something like that, then we can
send it to them
John K: I fully agree
Lisa: Thank you Julie for paying so much attention to it
Rain: I guess I am trying to find
out how to respond to them since they have a firm
deadline
... I want to make sure I respond to that request
... To make it clear we are not happy with the document
... How about we write to them stating we need a multihour
meeting where we take members through the drafts
... Because we are finding their structure so complicated
... We need to do this together
... How do people feel about that?
... We can do it together for those that want that, and others
can do it on their own
John K: I agree with that. We are also concerned about the content. It has some striking concerns.
julierawe: As an immediate next
step maybe Rain and Lisa could ask for clarification - is this
the final look of this cognitive page
... Was COGA every shown a previous version
... I find it really surprising that COGA was not involved
earlier
... If they are looking for review of both the wording and the
structure
... I think everything else could be done by January 5th, but
corrections to the cognitive page
... maybe that would meet their needs
... Also the tone of their cognitive discussion
... I would be happy to share the beginnings of a Google doc
that people can contribute to
... Maybe having initial comments might help the rest of the
team
Lisa: That would be great
... But I do not think we can get comments from everyone by the
5th
<LisaSeemanKest> +1 jenny
<kirkwood> +1
<Rain> +1
<ShawnT> +1
Jennie: proposal: review the survey if you can, then group call to review, schedule a joint call and forward an agenda after the group meets again
Rain: I have drafted an email
(reads from her draft)
<kirkwood> best possible document is too strong?
<julierawe> Rain: one suggested change to your email: make it "cognitive page" singular, not "cognitive pages" plural
Lisa: Thank you that sounds
really good
... Julie please do share that Google Doc
... Do people want that if we are going to have a meeting to
talk through it?
Rain: I think it is good to have Julie send that document to the group for those that are more comfortable working asynchronously
<Zakim> Rain, you wanted to address the note that I've drafted in response to EO
Lisa: OK
... The next meeting today on the Silver templates
... This meeting of COGA is completed
... We will meet again in 3 weeks
... Enjoy your break
*wrap up the minutes? Not?
<LisaSeemanKest> rssagent, make minutes
<Rain> Scribe: Rain
Our clear language documents:
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups/WCAG_3_Coordination#Clear_Language
Structure document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CJ5QgJ1VA_k1xliois5pl5LGJ1GMYidUynt-6xpCKb4/edit
Lisa: purpose of this meeting is
to make sure we are doing the right granularity because we
really aren't sure
... we took the same thing and did it two ways:
... 1 is everything that has to do with clear langauge with one
method and one outcome
... 2 is one outcome with five different methods
... we did one of these more filled out (not fully done)
<LisaSeemanKest> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J1_ad5wR35m41hgKH-o3Sr_CwWWUUtDFoqBr3CRva7Q/edit#
Lisa: One big method makes it longer, which is harder to understand, but these are all things that have to be checked against in order to be successful
<LisaSeemanKest> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Uep5G4jzTw17-RmKC8aCW699nKTpZK1QVvOkUxzHG_Q/edit#heading=h.1et5sb74qcgm
Lisa: In the other case, they are
split up
... Five methods to reach the same outcome, but all five have
to pass to be successful with the outcome
Jeanne: huge amount of work, and
thank you
... I'm sorry that we keep changing things. The truth is
haven't worked it all out yet
... this particular example is really important because
whatever we set up for WCAG 3 has to include Clear
Language
... we've been experimenting with different approaches and that
is why things keep changing.
... what you've done already is great. I'd like to have a
discussion about the different ways we could approach it, and
then we can start to see how well that fits with the ideas that
AG has of how we can approach this.
... One of the things we could do. The methods we've set up are
as described, pick and choose the ones that are
approached.
... Maybe the way to approach is to actually split into five
outcomes, each with an individual method.
... the Method would be attached to the outcome.
Rachael: question on the silver side. There is so much detail. Maybe rather than splitting into outcomes at this point, is use this as a talking point as we move forward through these discussions that we may have.
<Lauriat> +1, I like that approach
Rachael: Maybe get some
complimentary items written like this. Then rather than ask
COGA to break it apart, we do so and talk about it and figure
out what to do now that we have this.
... Very sensitive to the fact that COGA has a lot on their
plate.
... Don't want them spinning, think the information is
here.
<kirkwood> +1
Jeanne: I like that idea
Lisa: what I'm understanding is that you actually don't know what you prefer, but this will be useful for you in determining it, and looking at this example where you actually have to do all of these things to make a clear paragraph.
Jeanne: we are very clear that you have to do all five and cannot just pick one.
Julie: I think we are talking
about a total of 11 methods, each which may be grouped under
other outcomes.
... We have "clear and understandable language," as a guideline
with three outcomes, one is understandable language, one is
chunked information and visual presentation, and one is math
concepts.
<jeanne> I realize there are more methods that haven't been written yet. I remember from doing the User Needs that there are more
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CJ5QgJ1VA_k1xliois5pl5LGJ1GMYidUynt-6xpCKb4/edit#
Wilco: first time seeing this
document, so fresh reactions
... the biggest challenge it seems to me on any of this is to
figure out firstly how do you measure this?
... How do you measure this well?
... Can you define it in a way that works for all languages
universally?
... How applicable is this? Does this work for every document
on the web? Or are there constraints and how do you identify
them?
... Wondering to what extent that has been worked on.
... Also tend to agree that this will probably lead to multiple
outcomes, so that seems good to me.
Lisa: we are thinking of those
things as well. We are wording it to try to make it language
neutral.
... we may need to point to some of the information on language
specific needs in a living document, since there is so much
information that may be language specific that we will learn
over time
... that may be a better way of doing it, is having a reference
page of the information as we collect it.
... We've tried to include other specifics (Lisa shared some of
those specifics, didn't note them all as scribe!)
<jeanne> +1 to the Hemingway and Grammarly tools
<jeanne> +1 to proposing multiple ways to validate. I remember a discussion a year or so ago to also allow an editor review or an organizational style guide
Lisa: would like us to have a joint meeting at some point on testability
Julie: calling attention to a
section we started drafting.
... Asking, what is the first thing you should do. Started
thinking from the old rating style, and different ways we can
approach a method like this. We think the most important thing
you can do is make sure the user has the most important
information they need to complete a task.
... the next level up is about any information the user may
need to know regarding safety, risks, privacy, health.
... then the third level is if everything is written in this
simple tense and voice. We are already trying to think about,
within a method, how to look at this complexity.
<jeanne> +1 to a good idea of breaking up the scoring -- but we aren't ready for scoring yet.
<Zakim> Rain, you wanted to take stock of what we want to get out of this meeting
<Zakim> Wilco_, you wanted to talk about next steps
Wilco: follow up with
conversation from test reliability group.
... Suggest working on examples, as that helps drive these
conversations.
... Finding the edge cases and showing examples of when it is
over the edge, when isn't it?
... Would help to have examples of those types of things in
different languages. The more diverse the set of examples, the
better.
Jeanne: I like the idea of doing
examples, hesitant about COGA putting more time into this. If
there are a couple of people that want to work on examples,
that would be helpful to us. We've done a new document on how
to write good testable outcomes.
... The examples are part of that.
Lisa: it will help to know the granularity when we make examples.
Jeanne: yeah, that's why I don't think we should ask COGA to do any more right now. We should start playing around with this ourselves. We have the basic information.
<Rachael> +1 to playing with it ourselves. If we (Silver side) try out what is written with an example or two we will 1) have feedback and 2) be able to use this better within our decisions
Jeanne: I hear very much what Lisa is saying about spinning. Do you think, Wilco, that we have enough to work with?
Wilco: I don't know. I haven't
read the document in detail.
... We can take it to Silver or AG and have a conversation
about what the group thinks about the direction.
Jeanne: that is definitely an
option.
... I'm almost thinking we should put this on hold for a little
bit until we get a little further with conformance.
... We know there are people in AG who feel that this can't be
done and therefore we shouldn't try. I don't want to turn this
over to them.
<Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to suggest bringing to Silver to share and recruit others to help work on examples from here
Lauriat: want to plus one the
things I'm hearing. Next steps would be to bring this work to
the silver group.
... bring it to the Silver task force, not the full working
group, to help build the examples.
Rachael: clarifying statement of
"this can't be done" -- there are people who are concerned
about this. That's okay, becuase part of teh conversation is
figuring out how to make it work.
... We have to figure out how it can be done
<Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to clarify "this can't be done"
Rachael: this is hard. This is why we have WCAG 3. It's a lot of work. Do think that what you have created here gets us on the path.
Wilco: I agree. I'm one of the
people who is in the "I'm not so sure this can be done" camp,
but what is key here is that we are still trying to figure a
lot of this out.
... Even if we have a solid proposal tomorrow, we still have a
fairly unproven solution. The development of these kinds of
things takes a lot of time.
... Getting this mature and proving that it works and building
up broad agreement.
... We are inventing new technology here.
Lisa: what new technology are we inventing?
Wilco: a way to determine a universal reading level
Lisa: I think we are following plain language guidance that is widely available and has been around for decades. There is nothing here that seems particularly new.
Jeanne: and it isn't reading level, either. That is an important distinction.
Rachael: what I do think is new
and we should all recognize is hard is that clear language has
a few aspects that are different from what we right now.
... it is harder to measure, and looking at a more holistic
point of view.
<kirkwood> for example, ‘reading level’ is mechanically tested, and plain language is in US law
Rachael: If we can figure out technology to do that, that is a beautiful thing, but there is a lot that we have to figure out. This is why these COGA examples are helfpul.
Wilco: the challenge to me is the
universality.
... How to make it work for every language.
As scribe, Rain missed a bit of feedback from Lisa regarding policy and having to giving guidance to reach maximum number of people.
Lisa: we need the way to be able to allow people to look at it with different lenses.
Michael: new thought haven't mentioned to anyone. Wondering if we might tag things like methods and tests, potentially even outcomes, with languages that they apply to, and not necessarily individual languages but language families.
<LisaSeemanKest> +1
<LisaSeemanKest> fantastic idea
Michael: Already planning on having the guidelines structured with filterability.
<Wilco_> +1 Definitely worth exploring
Michael: Methods may look
different in other languages.
... Principle might apply to other domains of diversity.
<Rachael> really interesting idea
Lisa: supporting this idea
... more robust
Michael: and if people are doing a translation, then they can work with us on guidance
Lisa: suspect something very
helpful would be that if we look at all the plain language
things and start thinking about examples.
... Not working more on the template until we get more feedback
from Silver.
... Does that sound like a good way to continue to make some
progress?
... that might help with what Wilco is raising, and with us not
doing work that isn't helpful because w'ell use these examples,
anyway?
<kirkwood> There are ways to handle both languages, translation and interpretation (legally address handled 37+ languages): feel free to look at https://www.schools.nyc.gov/ through hybrid of technology and trained staff
Jeanne: I can come to a meeting (and maybe Wilco, too) to start working on these examples
Wilco: I'd be happy to
... would like clarification on granularity of exmaples.
Lisa: question is whether the
outcome should have all five separate methods where you have to
do all of them to reach the outcome.
... next steps, start working on the examples
Wilco: yes examples are never a waste of time
Rain: another next step is Jeanne to take the work we've done to Silver to inform their work, and they'll get back to us on granularity
Lisa: third next step is to have
a conversation about testability, and the concerns about
testability.
... I think we need to understand more on what the concerns are
about testing.
<Wilco_> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sugAtqie_x1XqHDZo1Im7ftDNllWeRV_ty4PULeoTV0/edit?usp=sharing
Jeanne: adding acknowledgement
that heard what Lisa said in the AGWG meeting about testability
vs. user needs.
... believe this is possible. I think we can do testability and
include the COGA user needs.
<Lauriat> +1
<julierawe> Thanks!
This is scribe.perl Revision VERSION of 2020-12-31 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/Texax/Texas/ Succeeded: s/clarify/clarity/ Default Present: LisaSeemanKest, Jennie, ShawnT, Rain, julierawe, kirkwood, JohnRochford, Lauriat, Rachael, Le, jeanne Present: LisaSeemanKest, Jennie, ShawnT, Rain, julierawe, kirkwood, JohnRochford, Lauriat, Rachael, Le, jeanne Regrets: E.A., Roy Found Scribe: Jennie Inferring ScribeNick: Jennie Found Scribe: Rain Inferring ScribeNick: Rain Scribes: Jennie, Rain ScribeNicks: Jennie, Rain WARNING: No meeting chair found! You should specify the meeting chair like this: <dbooth> Chair: dbooth Found Date: 16 Dec 2021 People with action items: WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]