IRC log of silver-protocols on 2021-12-10
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:58:13 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #silver-protocols
- 13:58:13 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/12/10-silver-protocols-irc
- 13:58:27 [JF]
- zakim, start this meeting
- 13:58:27 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 13:58:28 [Zakim]
- please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JF
- 13:58:44 [JF]
- meeting: Protocols Sub Group - Dec 10, 2021
- 13:59:11 [JF]
- Agenda+ Continue brainstorming the protocols that we believe would be applicable
- 13:59:24 [JF]
- Agenda+ Other Business
- 13:59:34 [JF]
- Agenda+ Be Done
- 13:59:36 [JF]
- Present+
- 14:00:06 [JF]
- https://jamboard.google.com/d/1U17jOitr4CyCrmaQtv6KU93thhHLzSVQAHUqb9HUDeE/viewer?f=0
- 14:00:35 [ShawnT]
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- 14:07:41 [JF]
- https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/bfc72cd9-fdfc-4847-826a-01afb9e3f5e7/20211105T090000
- 14:07:53 [jeanne]
- jeanne has joined #silver-protocols
- 14:07:58 [JF]
- https://jamboard.google.com/d/1U17jOitr4CyCrmaQtv6KU93thhHLzSVQAHUqb9HUDeE/viewer?f=0
- 14:08:00 [jeanne]
- agenda?
- 14:08:51 [JF]
- Present+
- 14:09:13 [jeanne]
- scribe: jeanne
- 14:09:44 [Mary_Jo_Mueller]
- Mary_Jo_Mueller has joined #silver-protocols
- 14:09:54 [JF]
- regrets: Chuck
- 14:10:19 [Mary_Jo_Mueller]
- present+
- 14:14:18 [jeanne]
- q+
- 14:14:28 [ShawnT]
- present+
- 14:14:45 [jeanne]
- present+
- 14:15:08 [jeanne]
- JG: Does plain language apply internationally?
- 14:15:29 [jeanne]
- JS: The group is working on that, there are international resources for plain language.
- 14:15:58 [jeanne]
- q+ to say that MC didn't recommend Content Usable
- 14:16:37 [Jaunita_George]
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- 14:16:41 [Jaunita_George]
- Present+
- 14:17:12 [ShawnT]
- q+
- 14:17:19 [jeanne]
- ack je
- 14:17:19 [Zakim]
- jeanne, you wanted to say that MC didn't recommend Content Usable
- 14:17:39 [jeanne]
- JS: I think we need to start with something simpler than Content Usable
- 14:17:51 [jeanne]
- JF: I still think that we need measurable.
- 14:18:34 [jeanne]
- JF: I think Content Usable is the ideal content
- 14:18:59 [jeanne]
- q+ to suggest we start with ARIA Authoring guide
- 14:19:21 [ShawnT]
- +1 on jeanne
- 14:20:32 [jeanne]
- +1 - that's a great one
- 14:20:38 [jeanne]
- ack shaw
- 14:21:54 [jeanne]
- JG: Can we have technology specific guidelines?
- 14:22:16 [jeanne]
- ST: I think we should have a protocol for validating for HTML
- 14:22:30 [Jaunita_George]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/mobile/
- 14:22:47 [jeanne]
- JS: WHy don't we make a list of propotols and then debate pros and cons.
- 14:22:54 [JF]
- Q?
- 14:22:57 [JF]
- Q+
- 14:23:01 [jeanne]
- ack je
- 14:23:01 [Zakim]
- jeanne, you wanted to suggest we start with ARIA Authoring guide
- 14:23:39 [jeanne]
- JG: Mobile Accessibility at W3C as a protocol
- 14:24:00 [jeanne]
- q+ to say what about BBC Mobile Accessibility?
- 14:24:16 [ShawnT]
- I like the idea of creating a list of protocols now, can we start a Google docs or sheets?
- 14:24:48 [Jaunita_George]
- +1 to using Google docs
- 14:24:54 [jeanne]
- JF: IS that a protocol? We want something to that you know it when you see it.
- 14:24:56 [jeanne]
- https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JK1UMfSDh0-dVEDuj5xswRU4XwlP50iuTSz8l1VFf-A/edit#heading=h.vbejvwdjmm97
- 14:25:18 [jeanne]
- JS: Google doc with some prior meeting work on brainstorming protocols
- 14:25:26 [jeanne]
- ack jf
- 14:26:51 [jeanne]
- JS: let's brainstorm protocols and add them to the list from the prior meeting
- 14:28:11 [ShawnT]
- q+ defining protocol before making a list
- 14:28:22 [jeanne]
- JG: Are protocols normative?
- 14:28:32 [jeanne]
- JS: Let's defer that discussion
- 14:28:49 [jeanne]
- JF: I don't think they can be normative because they aren't measurable
- 14:29:08 [ShawnT]
- q+ to defining protocol before making a list
- 14:29:22 [jeanne]
- ack jea
- 14:29:22 [Zakim]
- jeanne, you wanted to say what about BBC Mobile Accessibility?
- 14:29:25 [jeanne]
- ack shaw
- 14:29:25 [Zakim]
- ShawnT, you wanted to defining protocol before making a list
- 14:29:42 [Jaunita_George]
- https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_en/301500_301599/301549/03.02.01_60/en_301549v030201p.pdf
- 14:29:55 [jeanne]
- ST: I want to define protocols first, instead of making a list and then defining
- 14:31:46 [jeanne]
- JF: the decision tree for alt text is a good example of a protocol
- 14:32:58 [ShawnT]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/wcag/non-web-ict/
- 14:33:10 [jeanne]
- JG: What about Accessibility requirements for ICT products and services?
- 14:33:20 [jeanne]
- MJM: That's a standard, not a protocol
- 14:33:32 [jeanne]
- ... it includes WCAG
- 14:34:01 [jeanne]
- JF: It's mostly measurable
- 14:34:16 [jeanne]
- MJM: In the video ICT capabilities
- 14:34:57 [jeanne]
- JF: the section on captioning position has no measurable requirements
- 14:36:16 [jeanne]
- ... If it cannot be measured against a benchmark, then it should be a protocol.
- 14:38:08 [JF]
- Poll: A defining feature of a protocol is that it cannot be consistently measured against a benchmark, but it can use a benchmark as a reference
- 14:38:16 [Jaunita_George]
- +1
- 14:38:28 [ShawnT]
- +1
- 14:39:31 [jeanne]
- JS: I don't understand "it can use a benchmark as a reference"
- 14:39:48 [JF]
- https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/
- 14:39:59 [jeanne]
- JF: In content usable, there are 8 outcomes
- 14:39:59 [JF]
- New Poll: A defining feature of a protocol is that it cannot be consistently measured against a benchmark
- 14:40:04 [jeanne]
- +1
- 14:40:07 [Mary_Jo_Mueller]
- +1
- 14:40:30 [Jennifer]
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- 14:40:34 [Jennifer]
- present+
- 14:40:44 [JF]
- https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/#objective-1-help-users-understand-what-things-are-and-how-to-use-them
- 14:41:13 [jeanne]
- ST: Will people understand what a benchmark is?
- 14:41:31 [jeanne]
- JF: The Content Usable objectives are a benchmark
- 14:42:59 [jeanne]
- JF: What about "outcome"?
- 14:43:17 [jeanne]
- MJM: It could be confusing with normative Outcomes in WCAG3
- 14:44:18 [jeanne]
- ... when people come to the documentation and resources, will they understand what they have to do and what they don't? It coiuld muddy the water.
- 14:45:06 [jeanne]
- JG: Can we use "result"?
- 14:45:26 [JF]
- A defining feature of a protocol is that it cannot be consistently measured against an (outcome | result)
- 14:46:00 [jeanne]
- MJM: an expected result
- 14:46:14 [jeanne]
- JF: It has to be a reaction that meets our expectation
- 14:46:41 [Mary_Jo_Mueller]
- perhaps "desired result"?
- 14:48:39 [jeanne]
- JSt: A list of questions to ask oneself while they are working. People - devs - often complain that Outcomes are subjective. One auditor gives one answer, and one gives another.
- 14:48:48 [ShawnT]
- +1 Jennifer
- 14:49:21 [JF]
- Q+
- 14:49:22 [jeanne]
- ... there are questions you can ask to clarify the experience of what people with disabilitiess need.
- 14:49:45 [jeanne]
- ack JF
- 14:51:32 [jeanne]
- JSt: We have to figure out how we experts make decisions so that can be documented and passed on to others
- 14:52:09 [jeanne]
- ... we should send a survey out to our broader community to ask: What are the questions you ask yourself to make sure it is accessible.
- 14:52:24 [jeanne]
- JF: It's too broad, we need to chop it into smaller pieces.
- 14:52:37 [ShawnT]
- q+
- 14:55:22 [jeanne]
- ST: in COGA we are looking at tools of how the Content Usable Outcomes can be met
- 14:55:39 [JF]
- Q+
- 14:55:44 [JF]
- ack s
- 14:55:45 [jeanne]
- q+ to say that there are volunteers who are testing experts to help make them testable
- 14:56:06 [jeanne]
- ST: I am reaching out to colleagues on how to test them
- 14:56:24 [jeanne]
- ... consistency between auditors is important
- 14:56:32 [jeanne]
- ... it seems very subjective
- 14:56:37 [jeanne]
- ack JF
- 14:57:03 [jeanne]
- JF: I think they will never be able to find a tool to evaluate plain language
- 14:57:26 [jeanne]
- ... but we can evaluate if the principles have been followed
- 14:57:45 [jeanne]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 14:57:45 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/10-silver-protocols-minutes.html jeanne
- 14:59:12 [jeanne]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 14:59:12 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/10-silver-protocols-minutes.html jeanne