13:58:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #silver-protocols
13:58:13 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/12/10-silver-protocols-irc
13:58:27 <JF> zakim, start this meeting
13:58:27 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:58:28 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JF
13:58:44 <JF> meeting: Protocols Sub Group - Dec 10, 2021
13:59:11 <JF> Agenda+ Continue brainstorming the protocols that we believe would be applicable
13:59:24 <JF> Agenda+ Other Business
13:59:34 <JF> Agenda+ Be Done
13:59:36 <JF> Present+
14:00:06 <JF> https://jamboard.google.com/d/1U17jOitr4CyCrmaQtv6KU93thhHLzSVQAHUqb9HUDeE/viewer?f=0
14:00:35 <ShawnT> ShawnT has joined #silver-protocols
14:07:41 <JF> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/bfc72cd9-fdfc-4847-826a-01afb9e3f5e7/20211105T090000
14:07:53 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #silver-protocols
14:07:58 <JF> https://jamboard.google.com/d/1U17jOitr4CyCrmaQtv6KU93thhHLzSVQAHUqb9HUDeE/viewer?f=0
14:08:00 <jeanne> agenda?
14:08:51 <JF> Present+
14:09:13 <jeanne> scribe: jeanne
14:09:44 <Mary_Jo_Mueller> Mary_Jo_Mueller has joined #silver-protocols
14:09:54 <JF> regrets: Chuck
14:10:19 <Mary_Jo_Mueller> present+
14:14:18 <jeanne> q+
14:14:28 <ShawnT> present+
14:14:45 <jeanne> present+
14:15:08 <jeanne> JG: Does plain language apply internationally?
14:15:29 <jeanne> JS: The group is working on that, there are international resources for plain language.
14:15:58 <jeanne> q+ to say that MC didn't recommend Content Usable
14:16:37 <Jaunita_George> Jaunita_George has joined #silver-protocols
14:16:41 <Jaunita_George> Present+
14:17:12 <ShawnT> q+
14:17:19 <jeanne> ack je
14:17:19 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say that MC didn't recommend Content Usable
14:17:39 <jeanne> JS: I think we need to start with something simpler than Content Usable
14:17:51 <jeanne> JF: I still think that we need measurable.
14:18:34 <jeanne> JF: I think Content Usable is the ideal content
14:18:59 <jeanne> q+ to suggest we start with ARIA Authoring guide
14:19:21 <ShawnT> +1 on jeanne
14:20:32 <jeanne> +1 - that's a great one
14:20:38 <jeanne> ack shaw
14:21:54 <jeanne> JG: Can we have technology specific guidelines?
14:22:16 <jeanne> ST: I think we should have a protocol for validating for HTML
14:22:30 <Jaunita_George> https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/mobile/
14:22:47 <jeanne> JS: WHy don't we make a list of propotols and then debate pros and cons.
14:22:54 <JF> Q?
14:22:57 <JF> Q+
14:23:01 <jeanne> ack je
14:23:01 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to suggest we start with ARIA Authoring guide
14:23:39 <jeanne> JG: Mobile Accessibility at W3C as a protocol
14:24:00 <jeanne> q+ to say what about BBC Mobile Accessibility?
14:24:16 <ShawnT> I like the idea of creating a list of protocols now, can we start a Google docs or sheets?
14:24:48 <Jaunita_George> +1 to using Google docs
14:24:54 <jeanne> JF: IS that a protocol?  We want something to that you know it when you see it.
14:24:56 <jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JK1UMfSDh0-dVEDuj5xswRU4XwlP50iuTSz8l1VFf-A/edit#heading=h.vbejvwdjmm97
14:25:18 <jeanne> JS: Google doc with some prior meeting work on brainstorming protocols
14:25:26 <jeanne> ack jf
14:26:51 <jeanne> JS: let's brainstorm protocols and add them to the list from the prior meeting
14:28:11 <ShawnT> q+ defining protocol before making a list
14:28:22 <jeanne> JG: Are protocols normative?
14:28:32 <jeanne> JS: Let's defer that discussion
14:28:49 <jeanne> JF: I don't think they can be normative because they aren't measurable
14:29:08 <ShawnT> q+ to defining protocol before making a list
14:29:22 <jeanne> ack jea
14:29:22 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say what about BBC Mobile Accessibility?
14:29:25 <jeanne> ack shaw
14:29:25 <Zakim> ShawnT, you wanted to defining protocol before making a list
14:29:42 <Jaunita_George> https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_en/301500_301599/301549/03.02.01_60/en_301549v030201p.pdf
14:29:55 <jeanne> ST: I want to define protocols first, instead of making a list and then defining
14:31:46 <jeanne> JF: the decision tree for alt text is a good example of a protocol
14:32:58 <ShawnT> https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/wcag/non-web-ict/
14:33:10 <jeanne> JG: What about Accessibility requirements for ICT products and services?
14:33:20 <jeanne> MJM: That's a standard, not a protocol
14:33:32 <jeanne> ... it includes WCAG
14:34:01 <jeanne> JF: It's mostly measurable
14:34:16 <jeanne> MJM: In the video ICT capabilities
14:34:57 <jeanne> JF: the section on captioning position has no measurable requirements
14:36:16 <jeanne> ... If it cannot be measured against a benchmark, then it should be a protocol.
14:38:08 <JF> Poll: A defining feature of a protocol is that it cannot be consistently measured against a benchmark, but it can use a benchmark as a reference
14:38:16 <Jaunita_George> +1
14:38:28 <ShawnT> +1
14:39:31 <jeanne> JS: I don't understand "it can use a benchmark as a reference"
14:39:48 <JF> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/
14:39:59 <jeanne> JF: In content usable, there are 8 outcomes
14:39:59 <JF> New Poll: A defining feature of a protocol is that it cannot be consistently measured against a benchmark
14:40:04 <jeanne> +1
14:40:07 <Mary_Jo_Mueller> +1
14:40:30 <Jennifer> Jennifer has joined #silver-protocols
14:40:34 <Jennifer> present+
14:40:44 <JF> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/#objective-1-help-users-understand-what-things-are-and-how-to-use-them
14:41:13 <jeanne> ST: Will people understand what a benchmark is?
14:41:31 <jeanne> JF: The Content Usable objectives are a benchmark
14:42:59 <jeanne> JF: What about "outcome"?
14:43:17 <jeanne> MJM: It could be confusing with normative Outcomes in WCAG3
14:44:18 <jeanne> ... when people come to the documentation and resources, will they understand what they have to do and what they don't? It coiuld muddy the water.
14:45:06 <jeanne> JG: Can we use "result"?
14:45:26 <JF> A defining feature of a protocol is that it cannot be consistently measured against an (outcome | result)
14:46:00 <jeanne> MJM: an expected result
14:46:14 <jeanne> JF: It has to be a reaction that meets our expectation
14:46:41 <Mary_Jo_Mueller> perhaps "desired result"?
14:48:39 <jeanne> JSt: A list of questions to ask oneself while they are working.  People - devs - often complain that Outcomes are subjective.  One auditor gives one answer, and one gives another.
14:48:48 <ShawnT> +1 Jennifer
14:49:21 <JF> Q+
14:49:22 <jeanne> ... there are questions you can ask to clarify the experience of what people with disabilitiess need.
14:49:45 <jeanne> ack JF
14:51:32 <jeanne> JSt: We have to figure out how we experts make decisions so that can be documented and passed on to others
14:52:09 <jeanne> ... we should send a survey out to our broader community to ask: What are the questions you ask yourself to make sure it is accessible.
14:52:24 <jeanne> JF: It's too broad, we need to chop it into smaller pieces.
14:52:37 <ShawnT> q+
14:55:22 <jeanne> ST: in COGA we are looking at tools of how the Content Usable Outcomes can be met
14:55:39 <JF> Q+
14:55:44 <JF> ack s
14:55:45 <jeanne> q+ to say that there are volunteers who are testing experts to help make them testable
14:56:06 <jeanne> ST: I am reaching out to colleagues on how to test them
14:56:24 <jeanne> ... consistency between auditors is important
14:56:32 <jeanne> ... it seems very subjective
14:56:37 <jeanne> ack JF
14:57:03 <jeanne> JF: I think they will never be able to find a tool to evaluate plain language
14:57:26 <jeanne> ... but we can evaluate if the principles have been followed
14:57:45 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/10-silver-protocols-minutes.html jeanne
14:59:12 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/10-silver-protocols-minutes.html jeanne