15:52:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
15:52:18 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/12/10-pbgsc-irc
15:52:20 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:52:21 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
15:54:04 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2021Dec/0000.html
15:54:27 <Ralph> regrets: George, Wendy, Dave
15:55:21 <ivan> ivan has joined #pbgsc
15:56:41 <Daihei> Daihei has joined #pbgsc
15:56:53 <Daihei> present+
15:57:44 <tzviya> present+
15:59:02 <avneeshsingh> avneeshsingh has joined #pbgsc
15:59:10 <Ralph> present+
15:59:21 <Ralph> present+ Ivan, Avneesh
16:00:33 <tzviya> regrets+ Dave, Wendy
16:00:51 <tzviya> regrets+ George
16:01:38 <Ralph> present+ BillK, Liisa
16:02:04 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
16:02:09 <Ralph> present+ Cristina
16:02:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:02:31 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbgsc
16:02:38 <liisamk> present+
16:02:44 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2021/11/12-pbgsc-minutes.html previous 12 November
16:05:29 <Ralph> present+ Mateus
16:05:34 <mateus> mateus has joined #pbgsc
16:06:41 <Ralph> scribe+
16:06:49 <mateus> present+
16:06:51 <Ralph> chair: Tzviya
16:07:02 <Ralph> zakim, next item
16:07:02 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
16:07:10 <Ralph> topic: Joint meeting BG + CG
16:07:23 <Ralph> Tzviya: what should we do to make this successful?
16:07:42 <Ralph> ... what might the BG bring to the CG to make successful Task Forces?
16:07:44 <liisamk> q+
16:07:46 <mateus> q+
16:07:51 <tzviya> acl liisamk
16:08:11 <Ralph> Liisa: glad we're talking about a joint meeting, which we're open to
16:08:23 <Ralph> ... and how the BG and CG cna work better to hand things off
16:08:41 <Ralph> ... one thing we haven't resolved is how the BG would find people to lead TFs
16:09:00 <Ralph> ... we've been having a lot of conversaions with fols across our community on what they think is next and what are the struggles
16:09:20 <Ralph> ... people think that once we get to EPUB 3.3 things are pretty stable; we don't need  more format
16:09:29 <Ralph> ... what we need is how to solve problems in a11y space
16:09:42 <Ralph> ... and FXL+reflow testing
16:09:45 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:09:53 <Ralph> ... people are interested in more brainstorming
16:10:21 <Ralph> ... the other thing that maybe ties in whth work already in teh CG is suggestions around talking about business cases there coudl be for other kinds of uses for annotations
16:10:24 <Ralph> ... idea generation
16:10:29 <tzviya> q+
16:10:35 <tzviya> ack liisamk
16:10:38 <tzviya> ack ma
16:10:53 <Ralph> Mateus: I agree with Liisa; there are opportunities around the idea space on things we coudl work on
16:11:10 <Ralph> ... and that we dont' have a solution for how these will be explored; who will take the lead
16:11:38 <Ralph> ... that's been the problem; we all have things we'd like to work on but there's been no one, or just one, person available to work on them
16:11:47 <Ralph> ... the people who engage are the same people every time
16:12:29 <Ralph> ... we haven't had a meeting yet; we don't have anything for our agenda other than updates
16:12:35 <Ralph> ... Avneesh gives updates on a11y
16:12:51 <Ralph> ... Documentation currently doesn't have a leader, though Dan may take it up
16:12:52 <Cristina_> Cristina_ has joined #pbgsc
16:13:13 <Ralph> ... what would make the situtation better is to prove that we as a collective can do the work
16:13:30 <Ralph> ... right now there are a small number of people who do the work
16:13:44 <Cristina_> present+
16:13:59 <Daihei> q+
16:14:02 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:14:17 <Ralph> ... it's a good idea to have a joint meeting but how do we get past the roadblock to show we can make progress
16:14:31 <Ralph> BillK: we should talk about the future of publishing on the web, not "EPUB next"
16:14:47 <Ralph> ... otherwise we'll bump into the backwards compatibility problem
16:15:07 <Ralph> ... a future state I'd like to see is keep EPUB 3.3, if it needs to be tweaked do 3.n
16:15:26 <Ralph> ... and focus on Publication Manifest and see where we can get with that
16:15:29 <tzviya> ack me
16:15:30 <Ralph> Tzviya: many comments
16:15:36 <Ralph> ... we have a Catch-22
16:15:48 <Ralph> ... people aren't sure how to engage if the group isn't meeting
16:16:13 <Ralph> ... and the notion that they'll have to chair a TF is daunting to someone who hasn't engaged in the past
16:16:24 <Ralph> ... Mateus and Zheng are both incredibly busy
16:16:40 <Ralph> ... maybe a 3rd co-chair, if only to help with administration, is needed
16:17:00 <Ralph> ... call it "issue manager" maybe to make it less scary-sounding
16:17:10 <Ralph> ... start each CG meeting with issue triage
16:17:23 <Ralph> ... don't escalate unless there's someone to take it on
16:17:30 <Ralph> ... that's a lower barrier
16:17:50 <Ralph> ... explore how people are using Manifest in the real world now; that's a great thing for the CG to work on
16:18:02 <Ralph> ... the education market has departed from EPUB in some respects
16:18:23 <tzviya> ack Daihei
16:18:24 <Ralph> ... for a joint meeting we need a date and a chair
16:18:40 <Ralph> ... Wolfgang has expressed interest in the past; we could reach out to him
16:18:55 <Ralph> Daihei: let's separate the CG and BG discussion from EPUB next
16:19:06 <Ralph> ... the BG co-chairs are happy to collaborate with the chairs of any other groups
16:19:19 <Ralph> ... from the start of the CG we have wanted to colalborate
16:19:50 <Ralph> ... probably due to the fact that we've been so busy, we've not had as much communication
16:20:31 <Ralph> ... practically speaking, if the co-chairs of both groups can talk more we can find some common ground between business matters and tech matters that require incubation
16:20:58 <Ralph> ... it's my bad; I should have communicated with Mateus and Zheng more
16:21:12 <Ralph> ... we can do this on line
16:21:17 <Ralph> ... by doing it more we can find common ground
16:21:49 <avneeshsingh> q?
16:21:57 <tzviya> q+
16:21:58 <Ralph> ... when I hear voices from Japan, especially W3C Members, they are facing a number of issues such as adapting publications to be compliant with a11y requirements
16:22:16 <Ralph> ... and dealing with cyberatacks
16:22:36 <Ralph> ... we could try more communication between the co-chairs
16:22:44 <Ralph> ... at least for a couple of months
16:23:03 <Ralph> ... find opportunities and provide feedback to the SC
16:23:53 <Ralph> ... in the meantime, some of the concerns I've heard from the Japan publishing community is that it is a concern for them if Publishing@W3C only leans toward discussion of technological issues and not business needs
16:24:02 <Ralph> ... they might leave W3C
16:24:14 <Ralph> ... on EPUB next we have to give consideration on how to resolve this issue
16:24:43 <Ralph> ... in terms of BG and CG collaborations, we should let the co-chairs discuss and come back to the SC
16:24:44 <tzviya> ack me
16:25:39 <Ralph> Tzviya: we had reduced SC meeting to once a month and keep the 4th Friday available; if we think that we need to collaborate more we can meet twice a month
16:25:52 <Ralph> ... one thing I've heard is that there's a bit of concern about GitHub
16:26:04 <Ralph> ... W3C uses GitHub, the CG uses GitHub
16:26:14 <Ralph> ... there's also an email list
16:26:31 <Ralph> ... if we're assuming a discomfort with GitHub we should discuss why
16:27:03 <Ralph> ... let's step away from fear of GitHub and just say that GitHub will be our mode of interaction with email as backup
16:27:05 <avneeshsingh> q+
16:27:14 <Ralph> ... let's set up a joint meeting as a brainstorming session
16:27:27 <tzviya> ack avneeshsingh
16:27:27 <mateus> q+
16:27:33 <Ralph> ... if chairing a TF is too high a bar we can have a triage session to assign someone
16:27:39 <Ralph> Avneesh: the approach is fine
16:27:57 <Ralph> ... we always need to create momentum in any group before people will take more responsibility
16:28:16 <Ralph> ... we may create momentum with some initial calls to get ideas for driving
16:28:41 <Ralph> ... when I start a new group I try to have calls every two weeks to get people talking and becoming familiar with each other
16:28:49 <Daihei> q+
16:28:56 <Ralph> ... after some calls we start filtering out which are the ideas that people will lead
16:29:07 <tzviya> ack mateus
16:29:10 <Ralph> ... I suggest more calls to build momentum
16:29:24 <Ralph> Mateus: I agree with that approach
16:29:37 <Ralph> ... the dull CG agendas have driven some people away
16:29:48 <Ralph> ... part of that is that we did not have issues to discuss
16:30:00 <Ralph> ... I worry a little about pushign away folk who just don't have time
16:30:18 <Ralph> ... for myself, it's not possible to host a call every other week
16:30:25 <Ralph> ... that's also the case for Zheng
16:30:39 <Ralph> ... if we can get a third person to help, that would be wonderful
16:31:18 <Ralph> ... one way the BG can help is with business analysis; document things on behalf of someone who isn't comfortable presenting to the CG themself
16:31:25 <tzviya> +1 to BG as BA
16:31:30 <liisamk> q+
16:31:38 <tzviya> ack Daihei
16:31:42 <Ralph> ... making the presenter become the owner isn't necessarily the best way to get things going
16:32:17 <Ralph> Daihei: I'm thinking about the accountability of the co-chairs
16:32:51 <Ralph> ... when it comes to business issues that need experimentation from the point of view of technical issues, the co-chairs can talk
16:33:06 <Ralph> ... in teh SC we can better manage how we operate each group
16:33:33 <Ralph> ... I suggest that we establish discussions among the CG and BG co-chairs and come back here to validate that
16:34:01 <tzviya> ack liisamk
16:34:06 <Ralph> ... and the co-chairs can take responsibility for discussing how each group can collaborate
16:34:16 <Ralph> Liisa: good to consider the CG works in GitHub
16:34:34 <Ralph> ... the BG can help translate for people who are not comfortable there
16:34:42 <Ralph> ... on business analysis, how far do we need to take it?
16:34:58 <Ralph> ... we had conversations in the summer on fixed + reflow
16:35:15 <Ralph> ... I have someone who built samples to test on reading systems
16:35:28 <Ralph> ... at what point can we get CG help with that?
16:35:43 <Ralph> Mateus: we need to get it to a point where it's documented enough to have a conversation
16:36:03 <Ralph> ... if people have ideas but aren't comfortable bringing the forward the BG can be the representative voice
16:36:25 <Ralph> ... by analysis I mean documenting the idea, documenting the use cases, maybe proxying to GitHub
16:36:34 <Ralph> ... then the CG can have a conversation in its tracker
16:36:50 <Ralph> ... we'll advertise it on our agenda and those who brought the idea can feel comfortable joining
16:37:02 <Ralph> ... without making them feel they have to become the owner
16:37:16 <Ralph> ... it doesn't have to be a super-detailed document; it can be as simple as an issue in GitHub
16:37:34 <Ralph> Tzviya: for the fixed + reflow example, the only thing that's missing is an issue in GitHub
16:37:54 <Ralph> Liisa: that's what I've been trying to figure out; how to get this to the CG without having to find a person to own it
16:38:03 <mateus> q+
16:38:19 <Ralph> ... I have a half-dozen examples of a11y issues that need this kind of discussion
16:38:32 <Daihei> q+
16:38:41 <Ralph> ... if there's an interesting agenda and a regular schedule maybe we can get people participating
16:38:49 <tzviya> ack mateus
16:39:05 <Ralph> Tzviya: we have a plan, and we'll work on getting a third CG chair
16:39:20 <Ralph> Mateus: we'll have a more interesting agenda if we have the ideas documented and ready for discussion
16:39:49 <Ralph> ... whether it requires Liisa to present or not is not clear; maybe people who are passionate about the issue will talk and Liisa wouldn't need to
16:39:58 <Ralph> Liisa: we're all busy
16:40:20 <Ralph> ... we know the BG could do better at getting agendas together and minutes published
16:40:32 <Ralph> ... we've been talking about getting some administrative support\
16:40:47 <tzviya> ack dai
16:40:49 <Ralph> ... we need to grow the community to get others to pitch in
16:41:27 <Ralph> Daihei: I can suggest that if someone from Japan wants to participate we might suggest them as a 3rd co-chair
16:41:38 <Ralph> Tzviya: please contact me off-line so we can get to the rest of the agenda
16:41:55 <Ralph> topic: Recommendations from BG about what happens after EPUB 3.3
16:42:06 <Ralph> Tzviya: chartering a W3C WG takes some time
16:42:22 <Ralph> ... EPUB WG will finish in about a year
16:42:32 <Ralph> ... there will likely be an EPUB 3.2 maintenance WG
16:42:46 <Ralph> ... it will meet infrequently, e.g. to address typos
16:43:00 <Ralph> ... if we don't charter another WG we might lose participation
16:43:01 <ivan> s/3.2/3.3/
16:43:17 <Ralph> ... it will be better if we have continuity without a gap
16:43:37 <Ralph> ... it's not likely that we'll need an EPUB 3.4 soon after 3.3
16:43:45 <Ralph> ... or that we'll need an EPUB 4
16:43:51 <liisamk> q+
16:43:55 <tzviya> ack liisamk
16:43:58 <Ralph> ... what are your thoughts about how to do some exploration?
16:44:08 <Ralph> Liisa: we're planning for another conference day on January 25
16:44:17 <Ralph> ... we're hoping to cover 3 things:
16:44:33 <Ralph> ... an education discussion to engage people to talk about what's happening in that space
16:44:50 <Ralph> ... and we're thinking it would be good to get folk talking about the comic space in Europe
16:45:01 <Ralph> ... EDRLab is building a proof of concept
16:45:21 <Ralph> ... we've also heard that there needs to be more collaboration and brainstorming; that could be a good topic for brainstorming
16:45:27 <Ralph> ... with some breakout groups
16:45:34 <Ralph> ... we're thinking of how to try that in January
16:45:37 <Ralph> Tzviya: sounds great
16:45:50 <Ralph> ... personally, I'd need to calendar that now
16:46:10 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:46:11 <Ralph> Liisa: the BG was about to do that
16:46:35 <Ralph> Tzviya: Avneesh, Ralph, and I have a conflicting meeting on Jan 25
16:46:53 <Ralph> Liisa: would one week later be better?
16:47:09 <Ralph> ... [1 Feb]
16:47:38 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:47:48 <ivan> q+
16:47:52 <Ralph> Tzviya: Chinese New Year is one week later
16:48:28 <Ralph> BillK: I'm working with an educational publisher who has a huge amount of completely web-conformant that they have to trim down to get into EPUB
16:48:29 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:48:49 <Ralph> ... so I'm particularly interested in talking about web publishing
16:49:18 <Ralph> Ivan: we have to have some more general goal in mind
16:49:42 <Ralph> ... I'm worried that we get into lots of details about comics or educational material without knowing where it would go
16:49:45 <tzviya> q+
16:50:03 <Ralph> ... would we have a Publishing WG who works on other uses for Manifest?
16:50:31 <Ralph> Tzviya: what I have observed in education is that EPUB still has value because people still want off-line
16:50:55 <Ralph> ... but working in the browser, with Javascript and all, is where people are going
16:51:22 <ivan> q+
16:51:31 <Ralph> ... doe we want to do different flavors of Manifest or do we want a lot of options?
16:51:44 <ivan> ack tzviya
16:51:56 <Ralph> ... like scholarly where only the metadata is required and everything else is optional
16:52:03 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:52:23 <Ralph> Ivan: we are getting back to some of the discussion we had in the Publishing WG
16:52:29 <liisamk> q+
16:52:34 <Ralph> ... maybe after several years that's OK
16:53:02 <Ralph> ... the biggest problem we had with Manifest was that we didn't have implementation experience
16:53:26 <Ralph> ... we don't know if Manifest gives us a way to have a browser-based reading system
16:53:44 <Ralph> ... and what technologies in the browser world we should take advantage of
16:53:53 <Ralph> ... this sort of incubation should happen in the CG
16:54:07 <tzviya> ack li
16:54:12 <Ralph> ... Manifest by itself doesn't solve everything; we have to go beyond that
16:54:48 <Ralph> Liisa: in the January meeting, let's not present solutions; let's hear what happened in the past few years and what people on the ground have been kluding because there aren't standards
16:55:03 <avneeshsingh> q+
16:55:04 <Ralph> ... without knowing what people have been doing we don't know how to help
16:55:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:55:40 <tzviya> ack av
16:55:42 <Ralph> Ivan: yes, and we should have a clear idea of how that meeting will help us know where to go
16:56:35 <Ralph> Avneesh: I feel we are running short on time.  In W3C incubation is extremely important.
16:56:50 <tzviya> +1 avneeshsingh
16:56:56 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:57:00 <Ralph> ... it will be hard to charter another Working Group without a successful incubation platform in the CG
16:57:02 <liisamk> g+
16:57:17 <Ralph> Bill: on scholarly there are existing implementations
16:57:23 <Ralph> ... e.g .U. Mich Fulcrum
16:57:29 <tzviya> q+ liisamk
16:57:41 <Ralph> ... see the New York W3C Chapter presentation they gave a few months ago
16:57:53 <Ralph> ... it's a sophisticated on-line publication
16:58:31 <Ralph> ... I got an email from the EU Publications Office last week saying they wanted to engage
16:58:44 <Ralph> ... there are people doing things out on the margins; let's gather them up
16:58:57 <Ralph> Ivan: understand what they're doing, what problems they are facing, what they expect from W3C
16:59:01 <tzviya> ack liisamk
16:59:13 <Ralph> Tzviya: I hope you're also asking Mateus to present what Norton is doing
16:59:26 <Ralph> Bill: Norton is doing really good stuff
16:59:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> Pal
16:59:51 <Bill_Kasdorf> Pal from the EU Publications Office
16:59:54 <Ralph> Bill: Pal wants to get involved too
17:01:03 <Ralph> Liisa: the BG is hearing a focus on finding things for a WG to do but that's not our goal unless it's really what the business needs
17:01:33 <Ralph> Tzviya: glad you say that; the CG is not limited to proposing work for a Publishing WG; it can escalate work to any W3C Working Group
17:02:07 <Ralph> ... e.g. if the CG sees a need for more work on identity management, there is another WG to which to send that
17:02:09 <Ralph> [adjourned]
17:02:15 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
17:02:15 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Daihei, tzviya, Ralph, Ivan, Avneesh, BillK, Liisa, Cristina, Bill_Kasdorf, liisamk, Mateus, Cristina_
17:02:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:02:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/10-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
17:02:21 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:02:25 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
18:11:21 <RalphS> RalphS has joined #pbgsc
18:28:41 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
18:28:41 <RRSAgent> I see no action items