<laura_> Scribe: Laura
trackbot, start meeting
<trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
<trackbot> Date: 02 December 2021
<scribe> Scribe: Laura
<scribe> Chair: Jon
<jon_avila> rrsagent?
Jon: 4 items on the agenda
today.
... anything to add?
sam: catagorizing guidelines.
jon: still don’t have a plan for
going forward. need guidance from AG.
... 3 bits of disscussion that need feedback.
... Supplemental Guidance Template Discussion , Template - User
mini-personas or not?, Template section headings
... Supplemental Guidance Template Discussion sh and I have
commented on this one,
... would like input.
<jon_avila> https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/discussions/142
jon: not specific personas. looking for input on this one too.
<jon_avila> https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/discussions/140
User Stories | User Needs | User Experience has one comment from sam.
scribe: any questions?
sam: can’t remember what I said.
I like user stories.
... could have examples.
... could be visual examples of things going right.
... odd to have getting started before more details… if it is
needed.
... Sam prefers "User Stories".
bb: fond altenative teams confusing.
andy: doesn’t say what kind of
examples. Could split them.
... could help to thead the examples throughout.
ac: +1 to personas and visual examples
<Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to suggest drafting one or two, then revisit if it is working.
ac: reasonable structure to start with. Will know more after some are drafted.
<Sam> +1 for using the mini personas to thread examples
bb: support section- what does that mean?
jon: browser support. how it works.
<Sam> +1 for trying out the structure on a handful of topics, and then confirm suitability for the remaining topics
jon: AT support. what combinations work.
andy: maybe note it as technology hurdles.
Jon: user agents and AT
sam: compatability or UA compatability
jon: one that lc wrote.
... andy commented as well.
... read through and comment.
sam: distance in terms of pixels.
add something to visual structure.
... things within sets. not just physical distance.
jon: not just color either.
... clue about relationships.
... could mention or not or update to be more broad than
proximity.
... helps coga too.
andy: this is another area of contrast.
want to stay way from absolute items. It is more relative.
scribe: plain flat color may not help us.
<Sam> +1 Andy's comment: ensure relative proximity is maintained with specified zoom
jon: if people are zoomed in how
to relate that things are not missed.
... sounds like an item that is related.
<Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to check on the how-detailed question
<Sam> either by pixel distance or other graphical techniques (alignment, lightness contrast, background colours)
ac: how detailed.
... what lc put in is a good legnth.
... related content needs to be close together . not
everything.
jon: card view or list view. I
pick card.
... 3 topics.
<Sam> +1 we should highlight Jon's example of basket add / 'cart refresh' not been visible with zoom,
<jon_avila> q>
jon: may have to come back to some of these.
bb: maybe have larger themes in
the guidance.
... then link the smaller items.
jon: we do have some
categories.
... maybe have a matrix.
<jon_avila> https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/discussions/125
jon: add more detials in the Supplemental Guidance Grouping:https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/discussions/125
sam: could use tags
... there not be clean separations. So could have key
words.
... it could be dynamic.
andy: some technical hurdles to make tagging work.
sam: keywords could be headings.
andy: have the structure in place
sam: a tech question on it.
... will WHC override inline style.
jon: it depends.
... depends on technology being used.
... wcag says specify foreground and background colors.
<shawn> [ Shawn apologizes for only being in IRC. If I understand previous topic correctly, I would like to suggest that we get basic supplemental guidance out soon, and not let ideals of tagging and more complex stuff slow us down now. (If I misunderstood topic, please excuse my intrusion)]
jon: we have a technique for icon
fonts.
... take a look at the WCAG techniques.
<jon_avila> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/
jon: search github for HCM
andy: apple has system wide dark
mode that is helpful.
... requires author to have CSS properites for that media
query
... a lot of ways where it can do wrong.
... WCAG doesn’t work well for dark colors
... author needs to take charge of it.
... could use variables.
... kind of a new thing.
... some brower extentions are available.
... a study found dark mode is healthier for the eyes
jon: dark mode and h c more are
different things,
... related but different. We will need to address both.
... put ideas into the GH discussion.
sam: low contrast should be in
there too.
... have a low vision acuity mode done by the author.
... have a digital passport.
... nice to have but seems a pipe dream.
andy: user profiles is a key thing.
<jon_avila> GPII https://gpii.net/
andy: Gregg V is working on GPII
jon: ... work on things to be
aware of today.
... maybe give some examples of what is possible today.
<shawn> +1 to giving guidance to designers and developers on what they can do now (while us keeping involved on how to make things better in the future)
jon: no good way to dectect WHC
mode.
... document things.
... give some actionable guideance.
article by Dr Legge. He will join us on Dec 16.
sam: maybe use simulations in sup
guidance.
... depends on how where they want to go with thier
algorithm.
jon: we want to undertand the
study. we could point to it.
... it could apply in wcag 3. the agwg would need to coordinate
that. Not in the lvtf scope.
sam: could apply to ambiguity of icons
andy: it is way to simulate
things.
... can’t do auto testing with it.
jon: not sure about the
icons.
... a lot of issues with icons.
... we could give guidance without the tool.
... could give icon advice.
andy: example of icons on WAI site that can’t be distinguished.
jon: try to limit your own descriptions on the 16th.
sam: human observer is best for disambiguation
andy: circle vs octagon is a coga
issue.
... no auto method is going to get to it.
sam: task- distinguish shapes and
strokes.
... can I tell which is which.
... can I tell what it means.
andy: sun computers did work on
this.
... 2 items: understandable discernable
sam: disambiguation
andy: yes. unique.
jon: anyone else who should
attend on the 16?
... AC, Gregg V
sam: scope for the conversation
limited to icons uniquely identifiable
... don’t want to go down other rabbit holes.
jon: I read in the study about
resolution.
... people with lv may be sitting closer
... there are complicating factors that it may not currently
address.
<AndySomers> APCA independent review: https://medium.com/@think_ui/why-color-contrast-is-not-as-black-and-white-as-it-seems-94197a72b005
This is scribe.perl Revision VERSION of 2020-12-31 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/gidance/guidance/ Succeeded: s/saod/said/ Succeeded: s/fon/fond/ Succeeded: s/exampls/examples/ Succeeded: s/prosonas/personas/ Succeeded: s/plan/plain/ Succeeded: s/fro absolute/from absolute/ Succeeded: s/forward/foreground/ Succeeded: s/addres/address/ Succeeded: s/studdy/study/ Succeeded: s/can’t I tell/can I tell/ Succeeded: s/compters/computers/ Succeeded: s/identifilable/identifiable/ Default Present: Laura_Carlson, AndySomers, jon_avila, Shawn Present: AlastairC, AndySomers, Bhoomika, Laura_Carlson, MichaelC, Shawn(IRC), jon_avila, Sam Found Scribe: Laura Inferring ScribeNick: laura Found Scribe: Laura Inferring ScribeNick: laura Found Date: 02 Dec 2021 People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option. WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]