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14:58:37 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/12/01-pronunciation-irc
14:58:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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14:58:41 <trackbot> Meeting: Spoken Pronunciation Task Force Teleconference
14:58:41 <trackbot> Date: 01 December 2021
14:58:47 <IrfanA> agenda?
14:58:59 <IrfanA> agenda+ Follow up on the ARIA/APA meeting at TPAC
14:59:07 <IrfanA> Chair: Irfan Ali
14:59:18 <IrfanA> present+
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15:03:08 <JF> GM all.
15:03:12 <JF> agenda?
15:03:20 <JF> Present+
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15:09:28 <Roy> present+
15:09:35 <janina_> present+
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15:13:13 <Dee> present+
15:15:46 <IrfanA> scribe: Dee
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15:16:33 <Dee> Scribe: Dee
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15:17:39 <IrfanA> zakim, next item
15:17:39 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Follow up on the ARIA/APA meeting at TPAC -- taken up [from IrfanA]
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15:20:48 <NeilS> present+
15:20:53 <Steve_Noble> present+
15:20:55 <Alan_> present+
15:21:20 <Roy> Minutes -> https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-apa-minutes.html
15:21:55 <bkardell_> scribenick: bkardell_
15:22:31 <bkardell_> jcraig: there  have been a number of adjacent meetings on this recently...
15:22:33 <janina_> TPAC Minutes: https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-apa-minutes.html
15:22:38 <Dee> James: There were multiple meetings about pronunciation. General interest in solving the pronunciation problem. What has bogged us down is that previous specs tried to solve too much. Path forward, don't try to solve everything. Incubate and get some some prototypes out.
15:23:16 <JF> Q+
15:23:30 <IrfanA> ack jf
15:24:10 <Dee> JF: Can you help define this further?
15:24:54 <Dee> James: Suggest not including things like pauses and other secondary features.
15:25:52 <Dee> JF: The primary problem we are trying to solve is the pronunciation. Struggle to understand where to draw the line.
15:25:55 <mhakkinen> q+
15:26:00 <jcraig> navigator.pronunciationDisctionary.append([
15:26:00 <jcraig>     [term1, ipa_string1],
15:26:00 <jcraig>     [term2, ipa_string2]
15:26:00 <jcraig> ], 'ipa');
15:27:11 <jcraig> navigator.pronunciationDisctionary.append([
15:27:11 <jcraig>     [term1, soundslike_string1],
15:27:11 <jcraig>     [term2, soundslike_string2]
15:27:11 <jcraig> ], 'soundslike');
15:27:25 <jcraig> tomato - toe-may-toe
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15:28:00 <JF> https://www.w3.org/TR/spoken-html/#break
15:28:10 <janina_> q+
15:28:24 <IrfanA> ack mhakkinen
15:29:05 <Dee> Mark: One of the things that drove the initial set of features was pausing in the assessment realm.
15:29:17 <JF> +1 to Markku
15:29:22 <IrfanA> +1
15:29:30 <bkardell_> q+
15:29:30 <Dee> Neil: Pausing is important for math.
15:29:48 <cyns> q+
15:29:55 <JF> Q+
15:30:17 <Dee> James: Incubation is important. Solve primary problem first and then move to the other features, prosody etc.
15:30:50 <IrfanA> ack Janina
15:30:55 <Dee> Alan: Pausing is critical.
15:31:02 <JF> ack me
15:32:24 <Dee> Janina: We came to a very specific conclusion after TPAC. We heard that we shouldn't worry about the browser agents. Single attribute was preferred by the authoring side.
15:33:04 <IrfanA> +1 to Janina
15:33:17 <Dee> Janina: Agrees that pausing is important.
15:33:29 <JF> +1 - I'd go so far as to say that "break" is the second most required need after actual "pronunciation"
15:33:52 <JF> Q+
15:33:55 <IrfanA> ack bkardell
15:34:18 <jcraig> q+
15:36:07 <Dee> Brian: We can focus on the basic problem. Then we can explore other options.
15:36:20 <NeilS> q+
15:36:59 <IrfanA> ack cyns
15:37:01 <Dee> Irfan: We have several use cases for break.
15:37:38 <Dee> Cynthia: Fundamental question. This feels like presentation so why is this markup and not CSS?
15:37:53 <IrfanA> ack j
15:38:21 <Dee> JF: Yes, but it is non-visual. CSS sits in the visual.
15:38:30 <jcraig> I was somehow removed from the queue
15:38:55 <Dee> JF: We have 8 proposed attributes. If this is too many, what is an acceptable number?
15:39:06 <jcraig> ack J
15:39:15 <Dee> Irfan: Break is also important.
15:39:38 <IrfanA> ack james
15:40:03 <jcraig> Maybe a way to import a dictionary from a url, for canonical state testing pronunciation (ETS & Pearson use case) or crowd-sourced dictionaries
15:40:03 <jcraig> <script src=“http://wikipedia.org/en/speech_dictionary.js”>
15:40:03 <jcraig> 
15:40:03 <jcraig> so this is just for the page not globally right?
15:40:03 <jcraig> 
15:40:03 <jcraig> for the record, I am not proposing the “web” global dictionary, just showing that would be easy for a script-based solution.
15:40:04 <jcraig>  yes, just for the current page
15:40:04 <jcraig> same scope as JS for other things
15:40:42 <IrfanA> q?
15:41:18 <JF> Q+ to add there is also 'state' and 'context' use-cases: read versus read, resume versus resume
15:41:34 <Dee> James: May be opportunities for specific overrides.
15:41:56 <bkardell_> s/We can focus on the basic problem./We can focus on key capabilities that do not also involve solving serialization right now.  Step one of all of this has to be something associating actual data with the tree and getting that down to the AT.  I would suggest that if we have that, a lot of the other questions will flow out of this and there are opportunities to rapidly explore and improve what's above that
15:41:57 <mhakkinen> +1 to element specific overrides
15:42:54 <Dee> Irfan: Want to answer Cynthia's question. We performed a gap analysis. There are features that CSS does not support.
15:42:56 <jcraig> s/navigator.pronunciationDisctionary/document.pronunciationDictionary/g
15:42:57 <IrfanA> ack mhakkinen
15:43:16 <IrfanA> ack N
15:43:19 <janina_> q+
15:43:32 <Roy> https://www.w3.org/TR/pronunciation-gap-analysis-and-use-cases/
15:43:41 <Dee> Neil: Second Brian's idea.
15:44:13 <Dee> Neil: It seems like pronunciation itself is fundamentally different from the other features.
15:44:23 <IrfanA> ack JF
15:44:23 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to add there is also 'state' and 'context' use-cases: read versus read, resume versus resume
15:44:27 <mhakkinen> q+
15:44:37 <jcraig> q+ to mention CSS Speech implementations
15:45:40 <IrfanA> ack Janina
15:45:48 <bkardell_> q+
15:46:11 <aaronlev> q+
15:46:21 <cyns> q+ to say what's the minimum thing needed to be able start experimenting? Could that thing be a polyfill to start with?
15:46:35 <jcraig> homonyms are valid though... read/read is a great example. but mostly solved by ML content in a sentence. out-of-context homonyms or abbreviations are the harder problems.
15:46:49 <JF> not to forget i18n concerns as well
15:46:53 <jcraig> close/close button
15:47:00 <Dee> Janina: common homonyms - if there is a quicker markup, that would make sense.
15:47:03 <IrfanA> ack Mhakkinen
15:47:05 <jcraig> q?
15:47:35 <jcraig> q+ to respond to the homonym comments
15:47:35 <cyns> doesn't <span lang="fr-ca">Foliot</span> handle the i18n issue?
15:47:49 <JF> @cyns - no
15:47:49 <Dee> Mark: Experimentation. If you look as the assessment companies, they are doing this with read aloud tools. We have not been able to do this with screen readers.
15:48:12 <IrfanA> ack jcraig
15:48:12 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention CSS Speech implementations and to respond to the homonym comments
15:48:56 <cyns> @jf is that a lack of implementation or a fundamental problem with using lang as pronunciation guide?
15:48:57 <jcraig> s/assessment companies/assessment companies (Text Help)/
15:50:05 <IrfanA> https://demos.learnosity.com/partners/texthelp.php
15:51:04 <mhakkinen> TextHelp Speechstream: https://www.texthelp.com/products/speechstream/
15:51:05 <IrfanA> q?
15:52:26 <mhakkinen> words out of context in multiple choice options
15:52:41 <Dee> James: Homonyms such as read vs read(red) don't cause issues in context.
15:53:16 <JF> @cyns I believe it is the latter - but I can't say for sure
15:53:30 <Dee> Mark: In the assessment context, words may read correctly in context, but then are also presented out of context in response options.
15:53:55 <NeilS> For math, "a" has both long and short sounds, but math always needs the long "a" sound. Part of speech won't help
15:54:55 <Dee> Irfan: we need to make a decision on how to proceed.
15:55:04 <aaronlev> q?
15:55:05 <IrfanA> ack bkardell
15:55:46 <Dee> Brian: The dictionary approach may be better as a second step. Seems to cater to the authoring experience.
15:56:03 <jcraig> agree with the "second step" suggestion
15:56:33 <Dee> Brian: We have a fundamental problem. There is an element that needs pronunciation data. How do we communicate that to the AT?
15:56:57 <IrfanA> ack aaronlev
15:56:58 <Dee> Brian: Solve the fundamental problem as a first step.
15:57:39 <jcraig> q?
15:57:42 <jcraig> q+
15:57:45 <Dee> Aaron: In the long run, for authoring, we would want a global solution. As a first step support the local markup.
15:57:52 <IrfanA> ack cyn
15:57:52 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say what's the minimum thing needed to be able start experimenting? Could that thing be a polyfill to start with?
15:58:10 <IrfanA> ack cyns
15:58:13 <JF> @cyns can it be "things" (plural)
15:58:24 <Dee> Cynthia: What is the minimum thing needed to start experimenting?
15:58:49 <Dee> JF: Can it be things?
15:59:26 <Dee> Janina: We should think about what is needed to experiment with screen readers?
15:59:31 <jcraig> q+ to respond to Aaron re: element.... but not ballooning attributes. maybe element.pronunciation?
15:59:31 <IrfanA> ack j
15:59:32 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to respond to Aaron re: element.... but not ballooning attributes. maybe element.pronunciation?
15:59:45 <jcraig> q?
15:59:55 <bkardell_> `element.speakAs = ?` where ? is maybe ipa or maybe ssml or ...? and where the api lives and name is also bikesheddable is basically what I think
16:01:19 <Dee> James: The primitive is to piggyback on the element object in JS. Easier to experiment.
16:02:03 <Dee> Janina: Sounds like we are not finished here. We have identified some of the core concerns.
16:02:05 <IrfanA> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/01-pronunciation-minutes.html IrfanA
16:02:19 <bkardell_> +1 to jcraig
16:03:47 <cyns> i need to drop
16:04:14 <JF> Gotta dash - bye all, and thanks to aria wg for swinging by
16:05:30 <jcraig> s/The primitive is to piggyback on the element object in JS. Easier to experiment./Responding to Aaron about element, I would prefer not to balloon a lot of attributes (I think pronunciation would require at least two) so perhaps the piggyback element object in JS: element.pronunciation... or Brian's suggestion. Could make it easier to experiment for other use cases like Math, too./
16:06:22 <jcraig> s/so perhaps the piggyback element object/so perhaps piggyback on the element object/
16:06:34 <jcraig> rrsagent. make minutes
16:06:40 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
16:06:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/12/01-pronunciation-minutes.html jcraig
16:06:59 <jcraig> present+
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