IRC log of personalization on 2021-11-30

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13:59:30 [trackbot]
Meeting: Personalization Task Force Teleconference
13:59:30 [trackbot]
Date: 30 November 2021
13:59:35 [Roy]
agenda?
13:59:50 [Roy]
zakim, clear agenda
13:59:50 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:00:04 [Roy]
agenda+ Follow-up on i18n issue #144
14:00:05 [Roy]
agenda+ Implementations Update: Who is implementing Module 1? We need two implemenations...
14:00:05 [Roy]
agenda+ CR draft Status
14:00:05 [Roy]
agenda+ Module 2.0 Updates and Next Steps
14:00:29 [Roy]
scribe: Roy
14:01:43 [Roy]
chair: Janina
14:05:50 [Roy]
zakim, next item
14:05:50 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Follow-up on i18n issue #144 -- taken up [from Roy]
14:06:22 [Roy]
Janina: belive that status is that we have the pieces we need to show to i18n, but don't have them in the correct document type
14:06:22 [Roy]
Janina: have xml but need ebook and html - currently is not in the correct format
14:06:22 [Roy]
janina: once we have correct format, need to share with i18n
14:06:22 [Roy]
JF: clarification, epub is xhtml
14:06:23 [Roy]
Janina: yes, meant epub and not ebook
14:06:24 [Roy]
Janina: are showing shifts from left to right and right to left lanugage direction. We show inline symbols but preference is for symbol above. But, believe that showing symbols above should just be a matter of adding css
14:06:28 [Roy]
CharlesL : where is these files?
14:06:31 [Roy]
<Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel says to all: forwarding the email now
14:06:32 [Roy]
<Lionel_Wolberger> Sample of the code,
14:06:36 [Roy]
<Lionel_Wolberger> {{22909:cooking,cookery,preparation_(general)}}Ingredients · 2 {{22590:tin,can}}cans of garbanzo {{24021:bean_(dried),chick-pea,kidney_bean,pinto_bean}}beans · 2 cloves {{14423:garlic}}garlic, {{15989:peel-(to)}}peeled · {{14406:fruit_juice,juice}}Juice of 1 {{15221:little,small}}small {{15190:lemon}}lemon ... {{13408:cook-(to)}}Method 1. {{13872:drain,sift,strain-(to)}}Drain the {{24021:bean_(dr[CUT]
14:06:41 [Roy]
LisaSeemanKest : in the extension there were lots of user preferences, for example how much content was desired for the complexity setting. We did have a setting in extension for where to place the symbol
14:06:44 [Roy]
LisaSeemanKest : it is an implementation question and CSS seems like the way to solve; Thus, this is part of the user agent implementation
14:06:47 [Roy]
janina: believe that is beyond the need for solving the i18n issue (#144); yes, there are other issues that the user agents need to handle. It is task of reccomendation status to make sure other requirements are met. Right now we just need to satisfy i18n that we don't have a left to right / right to left issue
14:06:51 [Roy]
Janina: believe we have looked at this in other user agents, some handle language direction better than others
14:06:54 [Roy]
Charles: we say that Mac implementation issues where okay, but does depend upon what reading system, browser, and OS is being used
14:06:57 [Roy]
<LisaSeemanKest> I need to jump off for a bit, but just to say we have an extention that allows right to left or left to right or above
14:07:00 [Roy]
Janina: even when implementation / justification was not ideal, the symbols were in the correct order
14:07:03 [Roy]
CharlesL : Steve's implementation is in XML rather than xhtml
14:07:07 [Roy]
Janina: will forward message from Steve to the personalization list
14:07:09 [Roy]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Nov/0026.html
14:07:11 [Roy]
Janina: need to take Steve's information and put it into the correct xhtml format
14:07:13 [Roy]
CharlesL : I have provided the skeleton xhtml file. That needs to be updated with the information from Steve. Probably a couple of hours of work
14:07:16 [Roy]
CharlesL: I might have time to update the English version today. Someone will need to update the hebrew version of the file
14:07:19 [Roy]
Janina: believe we need to just do a few lines of the recipe rather than the entire thing
14:07:21 [Roy]
becky: reviews the info posted above by Lionel
14:07:23 [Roy]
JF: this seems like an analogy to sign language - is not exactly the same syntax and structure that native English text speakers are familiar with
14:07:26 [Roy]
<Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel says to Charles, I will do the Hebrew as soon as I have the HTML for the English
14:07:29 [Roy]
CharlesL : will have to add spans for text that need specific symbols. I will give it a shot and write down any assumptions I need
14:07:32 [Roy]
Janina: accuracy isn't a requirement, we just need to prove that changing the language direction works correctly
14:07:37 [Roy]
CharlesL: I think we still have a chrome or firefox demo that may work?
14:07:39 [Roy]
Janina: we need to make sure we point out in issue 144 that the symbol direction is correct but that some of the justification and other issues are general brower/reader issues
14:07:42 [Roy]
CharlesL: no ebook readers currently show the symbols; but we are demonstrating this on the web - that should be enough
14:07:45 [Roy]
Janina: but we need to see that it works inline
14:07:47 [Roy]
Charles: so we need to combine the english and hebrew into one file
14:07:49 [Roy]
<Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel to Charles: I will put the hebrew under the english, in the same file.
14:07:51 [Roy]
<Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel says to Charles, I will need that <span> pattern as sometimes two words become one symbol
14:07:54 [Roy]
JF: how much do we have to prove to i18n? We should be able to prove the capability and not all the specific use cases.
14:07:58 [Roy]
Janina: agreed, just want to suggest that we need to put english and hebrew within the same file
14:07:59 [Roy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
14:07:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-personalization-minutes.html Roy
14:09:55 [Roy]
present+ Matthew_Atkinson, mike_beganyi, LisaSeemanKest, JF, CharlesL, Roy, janina
14:10:13 [Roy]
present+ Becky
14:10:22 [Roy]
zakim, next item
14:10:22 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Implementations Update: Who is implementing Module 1? We need two implemenations... -- taken up [from Roy]
14:10:46 [Roy]
janina: this is a post CR problem. This is not an issue for the group, yet
14:10:46 [Roy]
becky: don't we have potential people lined up?
14:10:46 [Roy]
<Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel says to all, we have access-board started, and a Canadian bank potentially interested.
14:10:46 [Roy]
Janina: no one has committed to the user agent implementation
14:10:47 [Roy]
Janina: US Access Board has agree to update an application form on github branch
14:10:48 [Roy]
Janina: we need to show that a user can have a preferred symbol set and render between them
14:10:50 [Roy]
janina: access board will give us the content and markup but not the rendering - we need an extension to digest/present the content and personalization markup
14:10:53 [Roy]
Janina: US Access board example becomes our test file(s) but may need other examples to include all options
14:10:56 [Roy]
Janina: need to see how current extension will handle the rendering
14:10:58 [Roy]
Janina: may need Steve's help again with mappings
14:11:00 [Roy]
Janina: still need more implementers
14:11:02 [Roy]
Janina: need to review US Access Board example to see how many of our "must" requirements are met
14:11:04 [Roy]
Janina: Any chance that Thorium might pick this up? It is open source
14:11:08 [Roy]
Janina: CR has to last at least 60 days, we know we need at least two - so we have 120 days
14:11:10 [Roy]
14:11:30 [Roy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
14:11:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-personalization-minutes.html Roy
14:12:29 [Roy]
zakim, next item
14:12:29 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- CR draft Status -- taken up [from Roy]
14:12:41 [Roy]
janina: are there any issues with the text Sharon sent around for the CR draft status? I have no issues, we just need to fill in the publication dates. Need feedback from Shawn
14:12:42 [Roy]
Janina: we have the potential of privacy issues being raised, I believe we can resolve them during CR because we did get reviews from privacy and security already
14:12:42 [Roy]
janina: we just need to clear #144 before we can determine publication dates
14:13:16 [Roy]
zakim, next item
14:13:16 [Zakim]
agendum 3 was just opened, Roy
14:14:08 [Roy]
zakim, next item
14:14:08 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Module 2.0 Updates and Next Steps -- taken up [from Roy]
14:14:37 [Roy]
Janina: JF gave us the reformatting; have asked COGA to review module 2 and 3 for content and prioritization
14:14:37 [Roy]
JF: I just updated the structure of the mod. 2 & 3 documents to match with mod. 1. No content changes
14:14:37 [Roy]
JF: just need to review the attributes and values and make sure they are still relevant; Believe we can move faster based on what we have learned from module 1.
14:14:38 [Roy]
JF: do we want to work on mod 2 & 3 concurrently or sequentially?
14:14:41 [Roy]
Janina: that is why I want COGA to review again for priority of item because membership in COGA has changed
14:14:44 [Roy]
Janina: still need to address the question of how to get these specs implemented? Still fighting for ARIA implementaion who is going to take on personalization and pronunciation? Believe this is a wider WAI issue that needs to be driven
14:14:48 [Roy]
CharlesL: believe symbols is going to be the most challenging; other attributes are not as difficult - legal-ease, jokes, complexity
14:14:51 [Roy]
CharlesL : at least getting some of module 1 implemented in Thorium or other extension to get more interest and implementation
14:14:54 [Roy]
janina: for example, may want to ask bliss to provide list in csv or other format rather than PDF so could look up symbols via some sort of tool.
14:14:57 [Roy]
14:14:59 [Roy]
Janina: talk to aria and others about making updates at once rather than piecemeal
14:15:01 [Roy]
14:15:03 [Roy]
JF: I want to look into tinyMCE - WYSIWHG editor that supports extensions. If we could get an authoring module for personalization - two drop downs with attribute and value for authors to use. TinyMCE is widely used so may be an implementation possibility
14:15:07 [Roy]
<Matthew_Atkinson> +1 to JF's idea of investigating editors such as TinyMCE.
14:15:09 [Roy]
Janina: we can become a rec. without solving wider issue of wide implementation and complexities of implementation
14:15:14 [Roy]
<Matthew_Atkinson> and also +1 to CharlesL's of submitting patches to open source reading software.
14:15:17 [Roy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
14:15:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-personalization-minutes.html Roy
14:16:51 [Roy]
Topic: January
14:17:08 [Roy]
Janina: is January 4 a holiday?
14:17:08 [Roy]
becky: most companies seem to be doing the Friday before, Dec. 30
14:17:08 [Roy]
Janina: please check with your companies; so we will likely resume on the 4th of january
14:17:08 [Roy]
<Matthew_Atkinson> The 3rd of January is a bank (public) holiday in the UK (c.f. https://www.gov.uk/bank-holidays ) however I expect I will be around.
14:17:09 [Roy]
<Matthew_Atkinson> s/The 3rd of January/Monday the 3rd of January/
14:17:12 [Roy]
<JF> @Matthew - we should chat you and I about getting an extension for TinyMCE. May look to you for some assistance
14:17:15 [Roy]
Janina: personalization if off Dec 20 and 27. Two meetings after today
14:17:17 [Roy]
CharlesL : for authoring we may talk to Daisy as they have an epub converter
14:17:19 [Roy]
<Matthew_Atkinson> @JF: Yes, sure; sounds good :-).
14:18:10 [Roy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
14:18:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-personalization-minutes.html Roy
14:18:36 [Roy]
scribe+ Becky
14:18:49 [Roy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
14:18:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-personalization-minutes.html Roy