IRC log of dxwgdcat on 2021-11-30
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 20:48:45 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #dxwgdcat
- 20:48:45 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-irc
- 20:48:50 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 20:48:56 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 20:48:56 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
- 20:49:02 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- present+
- 20:49:21 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- meeting: DXWG DCAT subgroup
- 20:49:31 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 20:49:31 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
- 21:04:12 [DaveBrowning]
- DaveBrowning has joined #dxwgdcat
- 21:07:13 [DaveBrowning]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 21:07:13 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
- 21:07:34 [DaveBrowning]
- present+
- 21:08:39 [Makx__]
- Makx__ has joined #dxwgdcat
- 21:10:04 [DaveBrowning]
- scribe: DaveBrowning
- 21:10:11 [DaveBrowning]
- chair: riccardoAlbertoni
- 21:10:27 [DaveBrowning]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 21:10:27 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
- 21:12:49 [AndreaPerego]
- AndreaPerego has joined #dxwgdcat
- 21:12:55 [AndreaPerego]
- present+
- 21:13:04 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- PROPOSED: approve last meeting minutes https://www.w3.org/2021/11/16-dxwgdcat-minutes
- 21:13:07 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- +1
- 21:13:14 [DaveBrowning]
- +1
- 21:13:15 [AndreaPerego]
- +1
- 21:13:29 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- +1
- 21:13:37 [MakxDekkers]
- MakxDekkers has joined #dxwgdcat
- 21:13:44 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- RESOLVED: approve last meeting minutes https://www.w3.org/2021/11/16-dxwgdcat-minutes
- 21:13:51 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2021.11.30
- 21:14:04 [DaveBrowning]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 21:14:04 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
- 21:14:10 [AndreaPerego]
- agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2021.11.30
- 21:14:18 [AndreaPerego]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 21:14:18 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
- 21:15:05 [AndreaPerego]
- q+
- 21:15:21 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- ack
- 21:15:46 [DaveBrowning]
- AndreaPerego: I see that Annette has raised some questions/issues via the mailing list
- 21:15:58 [DaveBrowning]
- ....on the DCAT WD
- 21:17:03 [DaveBrowning]
- riccardoAlbertoni: Vote was generally positive, and procedure does allow for some disagreement on WD
- 21:17:39 [DaveBrowning]
- ... Chair can move it forward. But there has been silence on all channels
- 21:18:23 [DaveBrowning]
- AndreaPerego: Understand the open issues so Annette is not wrong but we planned to use WD to get feedback
- 21:18:59 [DaveBrowning]
- ... usually we have approval from everyone.
- 21:19:14 [DaveBrowning]
- riccardoAlbertoni: I have asked Peter what he intends....
- 21:19:43 [DaveBrowning]
- q+
- 21:19:52 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- ack AndreaPerego
- 21:19:57 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- ack DaveBrowning
- 21:21:17 [DaveBrowning]
- DaveBrowning: The plenary had limited attendance and so discussion wasn't possible
- 21:21:30 [AndreaPerego]
- topic: Dataset series
- 21:22:00 [DaveBrowning]
- topic: Concerns on DCAT-AP
- 21:23:08 [DaveBrowning]
- MakxDekkers: Currently looking at national profiles. Some implementers are against creating data sets for time series for geographical data
- 21:24:13 [AndreaPerego]
- s/topic: Dataset series//
- 21:24:27 [DaveBrowning]
- ... Some previous practice used more of a 'bag' approach, and some have been using this for data series
- 21:25:01 [DaveBrowning]
- ...been a long lasting discussion (at least 2016)
- 21:25:35 [AndreaPerego]
- q+
- 21:25:46 [DaveBrowning]
- ... Recent discussion has now come through to issues in DXWG github, so we now have an open discussion
- 21:26:29 [DaveBrowning]
- ... Clearly divergent approaches - 'dropping files into data set 'bag of resources''
- 21:26:54 [DaveBrowning]
- ... We have discussed before - it depends on the workflow practices
- 21:27:48 [DaveBrowning]
- ... Some practitioners don't want to put effort into description etc
- 21:28:37 [DaveBrowning]
- ... This leads to duplication - might be easier for producer but not consumer will need to cope with both/either
- 21:29:27 [DaveBrowning]
- ... We now faced with (sub)group of implementers who want to persist their current workflow for publishing
- 21:30:46 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- ack AndreaPerego
- 21:30:57 [DaveBrowning]
- ... DCAT 3 provides what we think is better way but we need to have a coherant approach to the subgroup practice
- 21:32:18 [DaveBrowning]
- AndreaPerego: Question - when we have these discussions, do they appreciate we aren't banning the existing practice, but providing the series approach
- 21:32:28 [DaveBrowning]
- ... based on other implementations
- 21:33:32 [DaveBrowning]
- ...Do the people resisting realise we aren't being prescriptive? That it may take time for people to move or adapt
- 21:34:11 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- +q
- 21:34:38 [DaveBrowning]
- MakxDekkers: We have the base DCAT approach where there is lattitude, but we have a network of implementers who need/want to be consistant
- 21:35:14 [DaveBrowning]
- ... Is the recommendation clear enough on this?
- 21:35:44 [DaveBrowning]
- ...I think the rec is very clear about how to do it if you 'come from outside'
- 21:35:54 [DaveBrowning]
- ... with no legacy
- 21:36:00 [AndreaPerego]
- q+
- 21:37:50 [DaveBrowning]
- ... For example if you have series at distribution then properties can end up being copied from Dataset (since they might change over time, for example)
- 21:38:00 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/wiki/Examples-on-dataset-series
- 21:38:16 [DaveBrowning]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 21:38:16 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
- 21:38:56 [DaveBrowning]
- riccardoAlbertoni: I agree with the point/concerns
- 21:39:48 [DaveBrowning]
- ... but intent was to bias it towards 'series at dataset' but not prescriptive since we know there is existing practices
- 21:40:18 [DaveBrowning]
- MakxDekkers: That seems not so desirable - if a standard has too many options it makes it more complicated
- 21:41:21 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- q?
- 21:41:28 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- ack riccardoAlbertoni
- 21:41:35 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- ack AndreaPerego
- 21:41:42 [DaveBrowning]
- riccardoAlbertoni: Intention was not to be evenhanded but to bias to our way (supported by use cases), but agree current draft needs to be better explained/examples
- 21:42:32 [DaveBrowning]
- AndreaPerego: My recollection is that the text was to reflect the current practice specifically
- 21:42:57 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- inSeries property note says "Normally, child datasets in dataset series are represented as dcat:Dataset. The use of dcat:Distribution for typing child datasets is however recognized as a possible alternative, whenever it addresses more effectively the requirements of a given application scenario."
- 21:43:13 [DaveBrowning]
- ... Perhaps we have been overly cautious. Would like to say 'we have a solution - based on use cases'
- 21:43:55 [DaveBrowning]
- ... but people are doing things differently.
- 21:44:30 [MakxDekkers]
- q+
- 21:44:50 [DaveBrowning]
- ... as it stands their approach is conformant but conceptually its quite different
- 21:45:00 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- ack MakxDekkers
- 21:45:02 [DaveBrowning]
- ... We could make this more explicit
- 21:46:18 [DaveBrowning]
- MakxDekkers: It says in section 12.3 that we expect people to change on way to DCAT 3.
- 21:46:56 [DaveBrowning]
- ... from a DCAT-AP implementation angle this risk of multiple approaches is quite worrying
- 21:48:15 [DaveBrowning]
- ... Could the spec be made more prescriptive ? Remove the 'not formally incompatible' comment?
- 21:49:03 [DaveBrowning]
- MakxDekkers: Key question - does DXWG want to be more presciptive.....?
- 21:50:25 [DaveBrowning]
- riccardoAlbertoni: One issue is whether we would have implementation evidence for the new approach in time for publication
- 21:50:41 [AndreaPerego]
- q+
- 21:50:57 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- ack AndreaPerego
- 21:50:59 [DaveBrowning]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 21:50:59 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
- 21:52:17 [DaveBrowning]
- AndreaPerego: These changes/extensions were motivated by provided use cases.. perhaps we can check, but we shouldn't rely just on that
- 21:53:05 [DaveBrowning]
- riccardoAlbertoni: In SKOS they used 'feature at risk', so perhaps we could
- 21:53:49 [AndreaPerego]
- q+
- 21:54:02 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- ack AndreaPerego
- 21:54:04 [DaveBrowning]
- ...suggest a clear direction, but mark the feature as 'at risk' and if there is no evidence by approval time....?
- 21:54:47 [DaveBrowning]
- AndreaPerego: I think there will be implementations. But also that they are different conceptually from some existing practice
- 21:55:44 [DaveBrowning]
- ... Question - do the implementers that have raised issues have any way forward
- 21:56:12 [DaveBrowning]
- MakxDekkers: They aren't keen on the new features and would potentially not use them
- 21:57:53 [DaveBrowning]
- ... and not change their systems. Since we have potentially divergent paths here, we do need to be sure that DXWG is okay with that. We have a new solution - elegant even - but some existent practictioners
- 21:58:07 [DaveBrowning]
- ... may not be able to change
- 21:59:14 [DaveBrowning]
- ... People may keep doing what they are doing since they have tools, training etc
- 22:00:22 [DaveBrowning]
- AndreaPerego: Would using more modularity provide an options (thinking aloud...)
- 22:01:10 [DaveBrowning]
- MakxDekkers: Probably needs the plenary to discuss/agree the risks/outcomes of these newer features
- 22:01:56 [DaveBrowning]
- AndreaPerego: And also might apply to versioning changes
- 22:03:13 [DaveBrowning]
- ... we have clear use cases for more sophisticated versioning, different from what people do now
- 22:04:12 [DaveBrowning]
- MakxDekkers: On versioning, feedback from implementers has been positive
- 22:07:38 [DaveBrowning]
- ... Question for larger group is whether we provide multiple ways and leave to implementers....
- 22:08:55 [AndreaPerego]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 22:08:55 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
- 22:09:16 [DaveBrowning]
- AndreaPerego: We should probably sleep on this and find a way. to raise at the plenary
- 22:09:46 [DaveBrowning]
- riccardoAlbertoni: Out of time now...
- 22:09:52 [AndreaPerego]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 22:09:52 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
- 22:21:06 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 22:21:06 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
- 22:24:32 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- present+ MakxDekkers
- 22:24:39 [riccardoAlbertoni]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 22:24:39 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni