20:48:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dxwgdcat
20:48:45 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-irc
20:48:50 <riccardoAlbertoni> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:48:56 <riccardoAlbertoni> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:48:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
20:49:02 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+
20:49:21 <riccardoAlbertoni> meeting: DXWG DCAT subgroup
20:49:31 <riccardoAlbertoni> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:49:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
21:04:12 <DaveBrowning> DaveBrowning has joined #dxwgdcat
21:07:13 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:07:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:07:34 <DaveBrowning> present+
21:08:39 <Makx__> Makx__ has joined #dxwgdcat
21:10:04 <DaveBrowning> scribe: DaveBrowning
21:10:11 <DaveBrowning> chair: riccardoAlbertoni
21:10:27 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:10:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:12:49 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwgdcat
21:12:55 <AndreaPerego> present+
21:13:04 <riccardoAlbertoni> PROPOSED: approve last meeting minutes  https://www.w3.org/2021/11/16-dxwgdcat-minutes
21:13:07 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
21:13:14 <DaveBrowning> +1
21:13:15 <AndreaPerego> +1
21:13:29 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
21:13:37 <MakxDekkers> MakxDekkers has joined #dxwgdcat
21:13:44 <riccardoAlbertoni> RESOLVED: approve last meeting minutes https://www.w3.org/2021/11/16-dxwgdcat-minutes
21:13:51 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2021.11.30
21:14:04 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:14:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:14:10 <AndreaPerego> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2021.11.30
21:14:18 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:14:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
21:15:05 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:15:21 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack
21:15:46 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: I see that Annette has raised some questions/issues via the mailing list
21:15:58 <DaveBrowning> ....on the DCAT WD
21:17:03 <DaveBrowning> riccardoAlbertoni: Vote was generally positive, and procedure does allow for some disagreement on WD
21:17:39 <DaveBrowning> ... Chair can move it forward.  But there has been silence on all channels
21:18:23 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: Understand the open issues so Annette is not wrong but we planned to use WD to get feedback
21:18:59 <DaveBrowning> ... usually we have approval from everyone.
21:19:14 <DaveBrowning> riccardoAlbertoni: I have asked Peter what he intends....
21:19:43 <DaveBrowning> q+
21:19:52 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack AndreaPerego
21:19:57 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack DaveBrowning
21:21:17 <DaveBrowning> DaveBrowning: The plenary had limited attendance and so discussion wasn't possible
21:21:30 <AndreaPerego> topic: Dataset series
21:22:00 <DaveBrowning> topic: Concerns on DCAT-AP
21:23:08 <DaveBrowning> MakxDekkers: Currently looking at national profiles.  Some implementers are against creating data sets for time series for geographical data
21:24:13 <AndreaPerego> s/topic: Dataset series//
21:24:27 <DaveBrowning> ... Some previous practice used more of a 'bag' approach, and some have been using this for data series
21:25:01 <DaveBrowning> ...been a long lasting discussion (at least 2016)
21:25:35 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:25:46 <DaveBrowning> ... Recent discussion has now come through to issues in DXWG github, so we now have an open discussion
21:26:29 <DaveBrowning> ... Clearly divergent approaches - 'dropping files into data set 'bag of resources''
21:26:54 <DaveBrowning> ... We have discussed before - it depends on the workflow practices
21:27:48 <DaveBrowning> ...  Some practitioners don't want to put effort into description etc
21:28:37 <DaveBrowning> ... This leads to duplication - might be easier for producer but not consumer will need to cope with both/either
21:29:27 <DaveBrowning> ... We now faced with (sub)group of implementers who want to persist their current workflow for publishing
21:30:46 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack AndreaPerego
21:30:57 <DaveBrowning> ... DCAT 3 provides what we think is better way but we need to have a coherant approach to the subgroup practice
21:32:18 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: Question - when we have these discussions, do they appreciate we aren't banning the existing practice, but providing the series approach
21:32:28 <DaveBrowning> ... based on other implementations
21:33:32 <DaveBrowning> ...Do the people resisting realise we aren't being prescriptive?  That it may take time for people to move or adapt
21:34:11 <riccardoAlbertoni> +q
21:34:38 <DaveBrowning> MakxDekkers: We have the base DCAT approach where there is lattitude, but we have a network of implementers who need/want to be consistant
21:35:14 <DaveBrowning> ... Is the recommendation clear enough on this?
21:35:44 <DaveBrowning> ...I think the rec is very clear about how to do it if you 'come from outside'
21:35:54 <DaveBrowning> ... with no legacy
21:36:00 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:37:50 <DaveBrowning> ... For example if you have series at distribution then properties can end up being copied from Dataset (since they might change over time, for example)
21:38:00 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/wiki/Examples-on-dataset-series
21:38:16 <DaveBrowning> rrsagent, draft minutes
21:38:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:38:56 <DaveBrowning> riccardoAlbertoni: I agree with the point/concerns
21:39:48 <DaveBrowning> ... but intent was to bias it towards 'series at dataset' but not prescriptive since we know there is existing practices
21:40:18 <DaveBrowning> MakxDekkers: That seems not so desirable - if a standard has too many options it makes it more complicated
21:41:21 <riccardoAlbertoni> q?
21:41:28 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack riccardoAlbertoni
21:41:35 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack AndreaPerego
21:41:42 <DaveBrowning> riccardoAlbertoni: Intention was not to be evenhanded but to bias to our way (supported by use cases), but agree current draft needs to be better explained/examples
21:42:32 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: My recollection is that the text was to reflect the current practice specifically
21:42:57 <riccardoAlbertoni> inSeries property note says "Normally, child datasets in dataset series are represented as dcat:Dataset. The use of dcat:Distribution for typing child datasets is however recognized as a possible alternative, whenever it addresses more effectively the requirements of a given application scenario."
21:43:13 <DaveBrowning> ... Perhaps we have been overly cautious.  Would like to say 'we have a solution - based on use cases'
21:43:55 <DaveBrowning> ... but people are doing things differently.
21:44:30 <MakxDekkers> q+
21:44:50 <DaveBrowning> ... as it stands their approach is conformant but conceptually its quite different
21:45:00 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack MakxDekkers
21:45:02 <DaveBrowning> ... We could make this more explicit
21:46:18 <DaveBrowning> MakxDekkers: It says in section 12.3 that we expect people to change on way to DCAT 3.
21:46:56 <DaveBrowning> ...  from a DCAT-AP implementation angle this risk of multiple approaches is quite worrying
21:48:15 <DaveBrowning> ... Could the spec be made more prescriptive ?  Remove the 'not formally incompatible' comment?
21:49:03 <DaveBrowning> MakxDekkers: Key question - does DXWG want to be more presciptive.....?
21:50:25 <DaveBrowning> riccardoAlbertoni: One issue is whether we would have implementation evidence for the new approach in time for publication
21:50:41 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:50:57 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack AndreaPerego
21:50:59 <DaveBrowning> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:50:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html DaveBrowning
21:52:17 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: These changes/extensions were motivated by provided use cases.. perhaps we can check, but we shouldn't rely just on that
21:53:05 <DaveBrowning> riccardoAlbertoni: In SKOS they used 'feature at risk', so perhaps we could
21:53:49 <AndreaPerego> q+
21:54:02 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack AndreaPerego
21:54:04 <DaveBrowning> ...suggest a clear direction, but mark the feature as 'at risk' and if there is no evidence by approval time....?
21:54:47 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: I think there will be implementations.  But also that they are different conceptually from some existing practice
21:55:44 <DaveBrowning> ... Question - do the implementers that have raised issues have any way forward
21:56:12 <DaveBrowning> MakxDekkers: They aren't keen on the new features and would potentially not use them
21:57:53 <DaveBrowning> ... and not change their systems.  Since we have potentially divergent paths here, we do need to be sure that DXWG is okay with that.  We have a new solution - elegant even - but some existent practictioners
21:58:07 <DaveBrowning> ... may not be able to change
21:59:14 <DaveBrowning> ... People may keep doing what they are doing since they have tools, training etc
22:00:22 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: Would using more modularity provide an options (thinking aloud...)
22:01:10 <DaveBrowning> MakxDekkers: Probably needs the plenary to discuss/agree the risks/outcomes of these newer features
22:01:56 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: And also might apply to versioning changes
22:03:13 <DaveBrowning> ... we have clear use cases for more sophisticated versioning, different from what people do now
22:04:12 <DaveBrowning> MakxDekkers: On versioning, feedback from implementers has been positive
22:07:38 <DaveBrowning> ... Question for larger group is whether we provide multiple ways and leave to implementers....
22:08:55 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:08:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:09:16 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: We should probably sleep on this and find a way. to raise at the plenary
22:09:46 <DaveBrowning> riccardoAlbertoni: Out of time now...
22:09:52 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:09:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
22:21:06 <riccardoAlbertoni> RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:21:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
22:24:32 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+ MakxDekkers
22:24:39 <riccardoAlbertoni>  RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:24:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni