18:54:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:54:03 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-aria-apg-irc
18:54:14 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria-apg
18:54:48 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
18:54:55 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Jemma
18:55:01 <MarkMcCarthy> MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria-apg
18:55:04 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make log public
18:55:12 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
18:55:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
18:55:17 <Matt_King> present+
18:55:38 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
18:56:46 <Jemma> Jemma has joined #aria-apg
18:58:57 <Jemma> rrsagent, make minutes
18:58:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-aria-apg-minutes.html Jemma
18:59:04 <Jemma> present+ jemma
18:59:11 <Jemma> regret+ richnoah
18:59:20 <Jemma> agenda?
18:59:32 <jongunderson> jongunderson has joined #aria-apg
18:59:42 <Jemma> agenda+ December and January Meetings
19:00:15 <Jemma> agenda+ Planning next phase of work
19:00:25 <Jemma> agenda+ Redesign migration and repository structure
19:00:34 <Jemma> agenda+ Unfinished work from 1.2 milestone
19:00:39 <Jemma> agedna?
19:00:42 <Jemma> agenda?
19:03:30 <Jemma> chair: Jemma
19:04:26 <Jemma> scribe:James
19:04:39 <jamesn> scribe: jamesn
19:04:39 <Jemma> zakim, take up first item
19:04:39 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up first item', Jemma
19:04:49 <jamesn> zakim, next item
19:04:49 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- December and January Meetings -- taken up [from Jemma]
19:05:09 <jamesn> Jemma: 2 meetings in december at most and 2 in Jan?
19:05:47 <jamesn> Matt_King: need some in dec to talk about repos restructure and getting set up to publish with new design
19:05:53 <jamesn> Jemma: 7 & 14?
19:06:22 <jamesn> Jemma: Can't meet Jan 4 but can the rest (11, 18, 25)
19:06:47 <sarah_higley> sarah_higley has joined #aria-apg
19:06:51 <Jemma> present+ siri
19:06:57 <Jemma> present+ matt
19:07:02 <Jemma> present+ sarah
19:07:04 <jamesn> Matt_King: Next week - if there are technical discussions w/ Howard can you make it James
19:07:12 <jamesn> jamesn: I think I can make it
19:07:32 <jamesn> zakim, next item
19:07:32 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Planning next phase of work -- taken up [from Jemma]
19:07:33 <siri> siri has joined #aria-apg
19:07:45 <Jemma> present+ curt
19:07:46 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg
19:08:00 <Jemma> Planning after ARIA APG Note 1.2
19:08:07 <Jemma> and Content priorities for redesign launch
19:08:32 <jamesn> Matt_King: Would like to float that the next milestone would be to publish the APG w/ the redesigned IA that Isaac helped develop
19:08:39 <Laura_f> Laura_f has joined #aria-apg
19:08:49 <jamesn> Matt_King: either prior to axe-con or for GAAD
19:09:16 <jamesn> Matt_King: the main things that need to happen are some content work (design the home page)
19:09:46 <jamesn> Matt_King: then also restructuring the repository so it can produce the content
19:10:01 <jamesn> Matt_King: then finish the process of coordinating with E&O
19:10:14 <Jemma> redesign prototype - http://wai-aria-practices.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/
19:10:39 <jamesn> Matt_King: somewhat ambitious but that is what I would like to do
19:10:51 <jamesn> Matt_King: don't know if can focus on examples etc.
19:10:54 <jamesn> q+
19:11:42 <Jemma> james: would everyone work on the project or will we split the work by subgroups?
19:12:12 <Jemma> mck: we have boucoup and they will do most of technical works.
19:12:15 <jamesn> Matt_King: bocoup is there for the tech work
19:12:30 <jamesn> Matt_King: the content for the home page - it is us deciding
19:13:21 <jamesn> jamesn: don't see the content discussion taking much time
19:13:29 <jamesn> Matt_King: not many meetings
19:13:46 <jamesn> Matt_King: even once have decided what there should be
19:14:30 <jamesn> Matt_King: lets talk about ideas next week
19:16:34 <jamesn> Matt_King: can move quicker hopefully after this
19:16:53 <jamesn> jongunderson: goal is to merge in other WAI websites
19:17:07 <jamesn> Matt_King: the using ARIA thing may be the next to merge
19:17:18 <jamesn> Matt_King: then tutorials
19:18:07 <jamesn> Jemma: goal is to migrate to the new platform
19:18:15 <jamesn> Matt_King: then can talk about the content
19:18:37 <jamesn> Matt_King: want to do an End 2 end audit of the content
19:18:55 <jamesn> Jemma: can have a conrtent strategy group
19:19:02 <jamesn> zakim, next item
19:19:02 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, jamesn
19:19:06 <jamesn> ack me
19:19:08 <jamesn> zakim, next item
19:19:08 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Redesign migration and repository structure -- taken up [from Jemma]
19:19:23 <Jemma> s/conrtent/content/
19:19:35 <jamesn> Matt_King: editors draft of the aria spec and see that the aria spec doesn't have the problem
19:19:54 <jamesn> Matt_King: all the permalink headings are at the start of the headings
19:22:06 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: 2159 - Howard made a comment and said it might be related to respec
19:22:10 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2159
19:22:17 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: Not sure why ARIA isn't getting the same issue though
19:22:30 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: unless you have a different version of respec?
19:22:33 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: I don't think so...
19:23:00 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: oh it could be because a change wasn't pushed - let me check in to it quickly
19:23:04 <MarkMcCarthy> [james is checking]
19:23:30 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: visually looks fine to me here
19:23:46 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: i'd prefer the link NOT be inside the heading, I'd rather it comes after the heading in the DOM
19:24:03 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: let me make a change to respec then, I'll talk to Marcos
19:24:21 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: screen reader users would SUPER appreciate that
19:25:15 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: this was done in response to Matt Garish's request, but if people are complaining maybe we change it
19:25:36 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: they manually fixed it in WCAG, so WCAG wanted this change it seems
19:25:50 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: i'm sure they don't want it in the beginning of the heading though
19:26:12 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: the section symbol was less burdensome, and you dont want to be bugged by them generally speaking, right?
19:26:21 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/respec/issues/3898
19:26:30 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: yeah. updated link text is fine, but the fact it's announced BEFORE the heading is what makes it annoying
19:26:38 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: i'll see what I can do!
19:26:43 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: thanks so much!
19:26:45 <MarkMcCarthy> Jemma: thank you!
19:27:03 <Jemma> Respec and references
19:27:20 <Jemma> udner Redesign migration and repository structure
19:27:29 <Jemma> agenda
19:27:35 <Jemma> s/udner/under/
19:28:16 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: Howard's gonna work on this and hopefully we'll get this thing built by the end of the year
19:28:37 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: I'll bring this up with Marcos, he knows more about respec and can likely help out
19:29:24 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: i'm not sure if they're considering not using any of these things and maintaining the markup, etc. I'm not sure
19:29:35 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: that's stuff we're doing on our own though, not anything in respec
19:30:32 <Jemma> q+ about other reference like html, not aria
19:30:52 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: making sure we're pointing to the right things would be really helpful of course
19:30:56 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: respec helps with that
19:31:46 <MarkMcCarthy> Jemma: we've talked about having centralized references and materials - how is that related to ARIA APG?
19:32:54 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: basically we need to have a unified dictionary. as is, every spec defines things on their own
19:33:25 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: e.g. all of our terms are informative and WCAG's are normative, so they can't use our terms as such
19:33:43 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: i do want to be able to link to normative definitions, and better link to WCAG (and other places)
19:35:26 <jamesn> https://respec.org/xref/
19:35:54 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: any time, you can add a term in here (which respec explains how to do) and it'll then link it everywhere
19:36:28 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: essentially, the xrefs can go into the document header, and then it'll search through and find terms that way
19:37:20 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: at the moment in ARIA we're exporting too much, so i'm trying to pare that down. there are a couple terms that are problematic and i've got a couple to work out before rolling in a PR that solves exporting issues
19:38:02 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: it's difficult to put lots of things in there, because then other specs can't define the same terms since they're "taken"
19:38:41 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: if anyone has any ideas for how to remove aria common completely please let me know. it's a thorny topic and a difficult one to solve completely
19:39:50 <MarkMcCarthy> jamesn: i've been wanting to change the acknowledgement sections for a while, since we have a huge amount of people listed (many i don't know) and many aren't as active as others
19:40:09 <MarkMcCarthy> Matt_King: i have the same feelings, touchy as they are
19:41:14 <CurtBellew> present+
19:45:54 <jamesn> jamesn: notes you can get gh contributors from respec
19:46:00 <jamesn> zakim, next item
19:46:00 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Unfinished work from 1.2 milestone -- taken up [from Jemma]
19:46:13 <Jemma> Accordion open PR #1834, #310, #1829, #1719, #954
19:46:20 <jamesn> Matt_King: biggest section is related to accordion
19:47:12 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1834
19:49:25 <jamesn> Matt_King: wanted to discuss whether or not we want these accrodion panels to be landmark regions
19:49:25 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/954
19:49:53 <Jemma> "Within the Accordion design pattern guidance, the use of role=region is advised against when 6 or more regions are included, however this guidance does not take into account that there may be many such regions where the only way to ensure proper nesting information is to expose the relevant regions that are applicable...."
19:50:21 <jamesn> Matt_King: looking at the simple accordion - if the content was not in an accordion then you wouldn't have landmark regions - so would argue that we don't want them in this case
19:50:23 <Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/954#issuecomment-956785779
19:50:43 <Jemma> "The conditional statement "Role region is especially helpful to the perception of structure by screen reader users when panels contain heading elements or a nested accordion." sounds clear to me, and provides guidance for complicated scenarios without advising against the use of accessible features when needed."
19:50:46 <jamesn> Matt_King: got to think about if we are going to provide more guidance would have to come up with what that is
19:51:24 <jamesn> Matt_King: Bryan did comment on the issue and we did say that we wouldn't add landmarks to the disclosure - sometimes useful to be able to understand the boundaries
19:52:43 <jamesn> jamesn: maybe add a group anyway?
19:52:59 <jamesn> Matt_King: don't like group everywhere as adds to verbosity
19:53:22 <jamesn> Matt_King: moving towards removing region from accordion
19:53:37 <jamesn> jongunderson: think we have too many landmarks
19:53:55 <jamesn> jongunderson: can see putting a region around a landmark
19:54:18 <Jemma> I like the word, role pollution ;-)
19:54:26 <jamesn> jamesn: advise removing landmarks as folks copy themn
19:54:38 <jamesn> jongunderson: put landmark in image carousel
19:55:00 <jamesn> Matt_King: made it a landmark and then used role desription for a carousel
19:56:36 <jamesn> jongunderson: landmarks are about navigation. should be very careful about including landmarks
19:56:42 <jamesn> +1 jongunderson
19:58:38 <Jemma> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/accordion-step-example/examples/accordion/accordion.html
19:58:47 <Jemma> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/accordion-step-example/examples/accordion/accordion-group.html
19:59:40 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:59:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/30-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn