<scribe> scribe: Jennie

<Rachael> https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_coga

* Please stand by Jake - they are working on it

Respond to AG label levels (part of AG Process)

<Rachael> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/AG_process#Labeling_Documents

Rain: These are part of the AG process (accessibility guidelines process)
... The current proposed labels

<Rain_> Current proposed labels:

<Rain_> Placeholder

<Rain_> Exploratory

<Rain_> Maturing (or Development)

<Rain_> Polishing (or Review)

<Rain_> Stable (or Candidate)

Rain: These indicate the status of the document

Rachael: Mature had been put forward for stable as well
... Polishing and stable had been identified as possibly having different meanings
... Are these confusing?
... What would make them more understandable if they are confusing
... I am hesitant on candidate because this already has a meaning

<kirkwood> feel maturing should be replaced with in devcelopment

kirkwood: I do not like maturing. I would rather see in development or development
... Polishing is fine, I guess.
... I am a little confused by polishing
... If it means review, I am not sure
... Ready for review might be something, but this might mean something else.

Rachael: The document can be a bit overwhelming

<Rachael> 1 - We know we need content but do not yet know what it should look like

<Rachael> 2 - We are exploring one or more possible directions for this content

<Rachael> 3 - high confidence in the direction and some confidence in the details

<Rachael> 4 - igh confidence in the direction and moderate confidence in the details

<Rachael> 4 - high confidence in the direction and moderate confidence in the details

<Rachael> 5 - Content is believed to be ready to become a W3C Recommendation

Rachael: this is what each level is supposed to indicate

Rain: When you described this, and used the levels themselves
... Part of our COGA guidance is providing multiple ways to access
... Could we have level 1: content placeholder
... level 2:

Rachael: That seems reasonable

kirkwood: I agree. 1/5, 2/5

<Rain_> Jennie: likes the idea of adding the level number to label, still unsure of polishing and stable

Rachael: how would you feel about

<Rachael> 3 - in development, 4 - maturing, 5 - mature

<Rain_> Jennie: like the sounds of in development, but when you have two words that begin with the same first five letters, difficult for some to discriminate

Rain: I would like to move over to the meeting with the mobile task force.

<Rachael> Absolutely. Please email me any further feedback.

Rachael: this is a good start. Please email me with further details and ideas.

Joint meeting with the Mobile Task Force

Rain: Welcome to the mobile task force
... here's the agenda for this part of the discussion

<Rain_> Agenda with mobile task force: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/TPAC_2021_initial_planning#Mobile_Accessibility_Task_Force

Mobile and COGA: Brief intros

Kim: there are 4 of us here today
... Jennifer, Jake, Sukriti, and myself
... We have a spreadsheet where we are looking at all the features of mobile devices
... How mobile is different, how it affects different things
... We would like to learn more from COGA what we should be considering
... Our key ask: what should we be thinking about

<JohnRochford> +1

Fazio: I have cognitive disabilities
... Sometimes it is easier for me to look at information on a phone
... I'm not sure how you drill that down to requirements
... When apps are developed, they are developed to be concise
... This is also present in the research I do with screen reader users
... Information is easier to condense down if it is spaced out correctly
... Less overwhelming

<JohnRochford> +1

*I added John R in case that is what he was trying to do

<Fazio> sorry about jumping right into it

<Rain_> Nothing to apologize, David!

Sukriti: I have been part of the mobile task force for over a year
... I am a product manager, and work with automated testing frameworks

Jennifer: I work at Deque
... as an iOS developer, working on our native mobile products

<Fazio> that guy sounds familiar

<Fazio> LOL

JakeAbma: I am Jake Abma. I lead initiatives for a Dutch bank, and am part of the WCAG group

Kim: I do a lot with speech recognition and mixed input.

Rain: as you speak, please say a little about yourselves so the mobile task force knows a bit about you

Mobile and COGA: where Mobile and COGA needs dovetail

Rain: David started us off eloquently

<Fazio> Conditional loading is important

kirkwood: I am John Kirkwood. I have been on the AG working group for a while.
... Mobile is built into processes right now - to prioritize information for a distracted user
... Someone working on a small screen
... I see a huge overlap between mobile and cognitive
... and it is how I guide companies
... Listen to mobile teams, work with mobile teams.

JohnRochford: I am John Rochford. I have been on the COGA task force from the beginning
... My area of expertise is working with individuals with intellectual disabilities and Autism
... What is perhaps unique for people with cogntive disabilities is that the information has to be navigable and understandable
... Anything on mobile would be very important for this huge population
... In terms of navigability ...Consistency: people with intellectual disabilities and other cognitive disabilities are flummoxed by inconsistent user interfaces
... Within them, but also inconsistent with other experiences the person might have had
... A great example is link color: blue/ purple
... And the lack of underline is another one

<Fazio> Also if you're switching from desktop site to mibile site and they dont match ...Consistency: If you are used to the standard of these colors, but then come to something that is different than that, it can make navigating very difficult

Rain: Does anyone from the mobile task force have any questions for the speakers that have already spoken?

Kim: This is exactly what we need, so thank you

JakeAbma: I recently had a meeting with an organization in the Netherlands
... They mentioned more than being consistent

<kirkwood> yes

JakeAbma: Authentication - is this something the COGA task force would like more attention on?
... Two factor authentication?

JohnRochford: We have a successful authentication SC proposed

<Fazio> +1

JohnRochford: The COGA task force is proposing information about authentificiation

*Sorry for the spelling error

<Fazio> yes

JakeAbma: specifically about the cognitive function test?

<Fazio> it includes process

JakeAbma: I think that is only part of the whole process

<Rachael> Here is the WCAG 2.2 https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#accessible-authentication

<Rain_> +1 to Jake's question

JakeAbma: For me to broaden the scope might be useful

+1 to Jake's question

Fazio: we have just been focused on the test, but it is only part of it

Rain: This is something we can follow up on together

Sukriti: I have a question about whether mobile specific needs have been looked at before and if they are documented - specific to COGA

<Fazio> not that I'm aware of

Rain: I don't believe we have mobile specific needs documented

<Rachael> No I don't believe so.

<kirkwood> not as far as i know either

Rain: From the moment I joined this task force - I am relatively new member
... It has been quite a struggle to remember that we are meant to focus on web experiences
... I am an interaction designer at Google
... I am specifically dedicated to cognitive disability, and housed within the accessibility team
... I am the design subject matter expert for across Google as a resource for teams to understand cognitive disability
... From my position, there is no delineation between web and other interfaces
... While different interfaces have some differences, the needs are the same
... Helping people learn what areas of the product could be improved to help people with cognitive disabilities I use the same guidance
... as what is in Content Usable, and pieces that didn't make it in to Content Usable
... I very much struggle to see why there is any delineation at all
... I understand scoping
... But there really isn't a difference
... Authentication is problematic across all experiences - there is so more we can do

<Fazio> bio sensors are great for accessible authentication

Rain: The tools to help support users may be different in the mobile space
... Compared to a website on a personal computer
... The other thing I find
... In my codesign work
... Even if they are using a computer - even with perhaps a large monitor
... What they are often using is the mobile version because of their zoom settings
... I think we need to recognize that people using the web version, they may be using the optimized for mobile experience

<JohnRochford> +1

<JohnRochford> +++++1 !

Fazio: My name is David. I have a traumatic brain injury. I have a private company - we focus on inclusive design.
... One of which is an online school

<Rain_> Jennie shared her experiences of individuals in group homes and shared living, where they may only have access to one device, and may chose mobile devices for ease of access and cost

Fazio: That is one of the things I want to talk about
... Making sure things are predictable, and knowing what users will expect
... When users go from a desktop site, then transfer to mobile - it can have a different design

<JohnRochford> +1

Fazio: and not matching can really impact people with cognitive disabilities
... Especially for an online school
... Some people might need to learn on a mobile device
... Matching versions may be really important
... The phone may be more accessible for a variety of reasons

Rain: I actually do my learning on my mobile phone
... Mobile task force representatives - do you have questions?

Kim: This is really good. There is some stuff we probably half knew

<Fazio> there's always more

Kim: I really like the civil rights overlap - that's good inspiration
... Are there more specific things we should think about

<Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to ask question

Rachael: I have a question for the groups combined
... Is there a space that needs work to help people transfer between digital spaces (desktop and mobile)
... Or mobile of different sizes and orientation

Rain: I will add this as a follow up topic

JakeAbma: I would like to extend what Rachael mentioned

<Fazio> I would say positioning of content could be standardized maybe

JakeAbma: At the bank I work with we are moving to or already have enhanced web fuse
... You could have seen it ocming for years
... we are completing integrating native and web
... I am just wondering if one of you already had to deal with this issue
... Most people develop in web, but we completely integrated between iOS and Android
... We use different native authentication processes

<Rain_> +1 especially as progressive web apps become more common

JakeAbma: Merging and blending them altogether
... The decision tree for when to create features or use processes
... We have a decision tree
... We are just starting the journey
... The clear line between native and mobile, and mobile and web is blurring
... Have you ever had a discussion on those topics?
... If so, are there more things we need to take into account?
... Seeing how assistive technology acts on those different merging of technologies
... There will be user agents loaded on top of native apps
... Taking over the whole screen
... To be like a seamless integration
... You may be moving between them while working

Rain: Thank you. I don't know that we have had that discussion yet, but it is one we should have ongoing. I have added that to follow up topics
... We will have about 5 more minutes of conversation

kirkwood: I think this is a very exciting area from the cognitive perspective
... From the functional perspective: there's different environments that the person is in
... Their ecosystem is changing, which impacts cognitive load
... which impacts keeping on task

<Fazio> personalization is super important

kirkwood: This allows from a security perspective a better relationship between the app and web
... You are not going to time out
... You are on another machine where you can use a biometric to help out
... There are many ways these converge

JohnRochford: I think that we should really think a lot about the future
... In particular, I think about the world's exponentially growing population of seniors
... How cognitive function can decline
... There are so many things about seniors today that are instructive
... Seniors flock to very simple interfaces, simple phones
... In terms of authentication - as people age their fingerprints fade and cannot be used in biometric devices
... These are quick examples - eye tracking too
... I think this will explode in the mobile space

Kim_patch: Rachael mentioned the best practices, Rain talked about native and web
... Jake mentioned that as well
... I think there is also platform level where things blur as well
... The app level, the page level
... And assistive versus efficient
... I think these are those blur areas where it is really great we are paying attention

Rain: I am documenting these so we can follow up

Fazio: Personalization, which is super important for cognitive accessibility
... When you sacrifice screen space, it really becomes important
... Personalization can really help people tailor to their specific needs
... We are talking with another task force about this
... it relates to AAC
... Instead of having all this text on my screen, I could have images to help

<kirkwood> Is Mobile TF outside of the HTML space?

Mobile and COGA: further discussion and questions

Rain: I am going to move us on now
... Let's talk about next steps.
... I have documented 2 topics for working together
... Authentication - beyond the work we have already done
... The other is big, could have subtopics
... How can we develop standards to help people move between platforms
... What are the differences at the different levels
... What is assistive vs efficient
... My question for both groups: what are our next steps to do this work together?

<Fazio> wew can review specs

Kim_patch: We have a couple of spreadsheets where we are mapping things out
... Could we push them to you and have comments?
... One is mapping out features
... I'm sure we have left something out
... These are for accessibiity in general on phones
... Another one: I think it is good to have maps to show people - sometimes you will see things differently
... The second one is about strengths
... I have several COGA rows, and I am sure I have left stuff out
... It would be great to see what your group thinks

Rain: That sounds great
... I believe that the best way to do that with us is to send them to Lisa and me (Rain)
... Then we will share them with the group, and add them to the agenda
... Then, the best place for feedback would be after we have had some time to review
... If a represensatative could come to the meeting to discuss

Kim_patch: That would be great. I also am wondering about formatting
... I see your agenda is in Google docs, with Poppin
... If we use that on the spreadsheet - would that be easier?

Rain: This formatting comes from the codesign work I have been doing
... Poppins is the only font I have found where I don't have to create alternative fonts for
... when working with individuals with more severe needs
... so I have defaulted to using it, with good size (12 point) and spacing
... that's just what I have defaulted to, and nobody from COGA has complained
... We use Google docs because it is easier for our task force
... I will caution you - we have heard from individuals who may be screen reader users that they may be harder for them
... Sometimes people may need alternate versions

Kim_patch: Poppins does not appear

Rain: It is a Google font, so you will have to add it

Fazio: I noticed you mentioned phones. People using AAC typically use tablets
... If there is a different focus on this - this is a really important distinction

Rain: I added this as a 3rd topic for us as well
... As we continue there will be more device sizes
... Thank you mobile task force for coming today
... We hope this is just the beginning!
... A few matters of business
... We are in the middle reviewing the APA documents
... Our next meeting is December 2

Reminder: review APA documents (our review should be completed by December 2)

<Rain_> https://www.w3.org/TR/naur

Rain: Please finish your review of these documents

<Rain_> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1I6QEmpWwDN_cXeR6I5OX5UnlcZQ9M2NV4bMalaAThuM/edit?usp=sharing

<Rain_> https://www.w3.org/TR/remote-meetings/

<Rain_> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WIcQbQXI9qhfqONFI9kLuFDzVAoMGwPwlY1aAnAnBpQ/edit#

Reminder: no meetings week of Nov. 25 (US Holiday)

Rain: I will send out a reminder that there is no meeting next week
... We are going into the Access to Help subgroup meeting after this call

*Thank you Rain!

<JenniferKorth> thank you all!

Mobile and COGA joint meeting + Silver Access to Help template

COGA silver access to help subgroup

<Rain_> Jennie asked about subgroup meetings on the 23 and 30 of december, those will be cancelled

<Rain_> New working draft for new template: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ufckA6WgfAvd88nLLWM9VIFfdNDJcq15pTCqiTQVIzE/edit#heading=h.1et5sb74qcgm

<Rain_> Archived of our previous working draft: https://docs.google.com/document/d/18xS6yd0c3WPBgbloVeqQIe75yfpcDciVv3frkdVBhdk/edit#heading=h.8e8laidsq55m

<Rain_> Created a new template to start fresh and move the content over

<Rain_> Jan: Waiting for feedback from Shawn and Jeanne for clearer guidance

<Rain_> Julie: one of the big questions is are we working on one method, or many methods laddering up to outcomes

<julierawe> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2020/methods/informative-images/

<Rain_> John: questions are similar to what were already asked. As things are populated we'll come across other issues.

<Rain_> Jennie: seeing an example will be very helpful. If there are ways to continue to focus the documentation to help people segment their work for the different types of help,

<Rain_> ... will help with requirements and testing

<Rain_> Julie: informative images method was what Shawn held up as a model for us to look at

<Rain_> ... Revised template is slightly different. Doesn't match 1:1 but gives us a pretty good idea.

<Rain_> ... first thing to call attention to, this is one method for meeting the outcome

<Rain_> ... it has five different alternatives to meet that outcome

<Rain_> ... how many outcomes?

<Rain_> ... how many methods?

<Rain_> ... Difference between this and Clear Language is that we feel that with clear language you have to do everything.

<Rain_> ... Whereas with informative images you can choose which method you use

<Rain_> ... in presentation noted that it is possible to have multiple outcomes

<Rain_> John: concerned about the plain language aspects of this template, doesn't quite land right for understanding the purpose of things

<Rain_> Julie: agree with John, really odd that the summary is the 4th section, help everyone get barings right away before giving specifics

<Rain_> ... maybe there is an opportunity to raise this?

<Rain_> ... when looking at the overall text alternatives section, icons that don't make sense, find it very hard to take in the information. The extent that COGA can provide feedback on how to make this more accessible would be great.

<Rain_> Jennie: looking at the page in a modified browser window (methods for text alternatives)

<Rain_> ... take browser window and size in half

<Rain_> ... noticed that when did that, the information on the left that gave orientation as to the multiple outcomes was missing

https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2020/methods/informative-images/

<Rain_> Jennie: had a group of users review when the draft came out. Included some screen reader users. Right now when you have introduction as the tab at the top, if you start scrolling down, you get to the bottom, now you still have to scroll back up to get to the next tab

<Rain_> ... this experience of having to move up, down, all around to go through what could be a process of reviewing the entire section of it, you may want a way to navigate from the bottom of the tab panel to go to the next tab

<Rain_> ... currently no way

<Rain_> ... the longer each panel is, the more work will have to be done.

<Rain_> ... The more work will have to be done by the user to get to the next section.

<Rain_> Rain: this also requires a memory need, have to remember what the tabs will be?

<Rain_> Julie: on the overview page, you are currently only presented with the outcomes

<Rain_> ... the outcome document is then where you have to be to see the methods

<Rain_> John: breadcrumbs are useful, but not on every page?

<Rain_> Jennie: there, but different on different pages

<julierawe> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sugAtqie_x1XqHDZo1Im7ftDNllWeRV_ty4PULeoTV0/edit#heading=h.q6kvhdps0qv4

<Rain_> Rain: next step, Rain to take all of our notes and make screenshots, and share this with the group for additions and notes, then share with Silver TF

<Rain_> Julie: also suggests that the team read through the document linked above (who to write testable statements)

<Rain_> ... strong encouragement to make things quantifiable and to reduce qualitative testing as much as possible

<Rain_> ... this may also be a good document for us to look at and think about

+1 doesn't mean not include the others, but will make it easier for some groups to adopt

<Rain_> Jennie: testable statements being very concrete really makes it so that should the state of MN agree to adopt 3.0, may have to adopt and exclude specific criteria. When something is less concrete in testability makes it risky and then makes it more likely to be excluded

<Rain_> Other next step is to take our work to date and put it into the new document for everyone to take a look at asynchronously

<Rain_> Jennie: also want to add that the work being done on these templates and design is exciting and really wants to say "thank you" for this effort

<Rain_> ... really appreciate the work being done.

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Default Present: Rain_, julierawe, JakeAbma, Rachael, Fazio, JohnRochford, kirkwood, JenniferKorth, Roy, Jan, Jennie
Present: Rain_, julierawe, JakeAbma, Rachael, Fazio, JohnRochford, kirkwood, JenniferKorth, Roy, Jan, Jennie
Regrets: EA, Albert, Lisa
Found Scribe: Jennie
Inferring ScribeNick: Jennie
Found Date: 18 Nov 2021
People with action items: 

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