17:25:56 RRSAgent has joined #aria 17:25:56 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/11/18-aria-irc 17:26:00 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:26:00 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn 17:26:02 chair: JamesNurthen 17:26:08 meeting: ARIA WG 17:27:20 agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3qI01wB) 17:27:20 agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3noOfFh) 17:27:20 agenda+ [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) 17:27:20 agenda+ [CFCs for ARIA 1.2, ARIA-Practices 1.2](https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2021Nov/thread.html) 17:27:21 agenda+ [Clarify how "otherwise interactive" relates to overriding the none/presentation role](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1628) 17:27:21 agenda+ [clarify img naming steps](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/322) 17:27:21 agenda+ [summary element role mapping](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/345) 17:28:14 regrets+ StefanSchnabel 17:28:17 present+ 18:03:22 present+ Joanmarie_Diggs 18:03:25 pkra has joined #aria 18:03:34 present+ 18:04:03 MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria 18:04:06 aaronlev has joined #aria 18:04:09 melsumner has joined #aria 18:04:12 present+ 18:04:16 present+ 18:04:26 scribe: spectranaut 18:04:41 carmacleod has joined #aria 18:07:10 zakim, next item 18:07:10 agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3qI01wB) -- taken up [from jamesn] 18:07:37 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1647 18:08:04 peter: ancient 18:08:28 jamesn: sometimes you do need to do this, right? 18:09:16 jamesn: the things that required counts, like a posinset, if everything isn't at the same level in the tree, or not a direct child in some browsers, so you don't get the count correct... so intermediate spans and divs are a problem 18:09:21 Yes, it's possible you'd need it (sorry can't call in right now) 18:09:34 jamesn: there is an issue to resolve this, and to ask browsers ot ignore intermediate generics, but not done yet 18:09:57 jamesn: we don't need to do this in 1.2 because it has been here for years 18:10:09 cyns: 1.3 good first bug? 18:10:22 jamesn: I think its more big/complicated 18:10:33 peter: the examples are bad 18:10:42 jamesn: so at least we should fix the examples in 1.3 18:10:50 peter: seems editorial 18:11:02 peter: because it is just an example. I can do it 18:11:21 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1646 18:11:30 jamesn: scott can we close? 18:11:36 cyns has joined #aria 18:11:43 scott: yeah 18:11:58 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1645 18:12:21 jamesn: maybe we should wait for aaron to weigh in 18:13:07 s/aaron/aaronlev/ 18:13:24 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1643 18:13:38 peter: I think this is an important convo 18:13:51 jamesn: 1.3? 18:14:01 jamesn: let's schedule a deep dive 18:14:09 jamesn: and I'll agenda it 18:14:33 scott: this should be talked about in regular meetings because it's hard / maybe impossible for me to join deep dive 18:14:48 https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aam/issues/11 18:14:59 jamesn: this seems related 18:15:06 jamesn: lets link them 18:15:28 peter: did discuss bring dpub into core spec? 18:15:43 jamesn: I think we talked about bringing some roles in, but we decided not to 18:15:55 zakim, next item 18:15:55 agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3noOfFh) -- taken up [from jamesn] 18:16:22 https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1644 18:16:32 jamesn: joanie can you review? 18:16:38 joanie: ok 18:16:45 jamesn: we will discuss later 18:16:49 zakim, next item 18:16:49 agendum 2 was just opened, spectranaut 18:17:09 zakim, next item 18:17:09 agendum 3 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from jamesn] 18:17:31 Jemma has joined #aria 18:17:41 present+ 18:17:56 rrsagent, make minutes 18:17:56 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/18-aria-minutes.html Jemma 18:18:34 jamesn: dec 9 for aria hit point 18:18:41 jamesn: issue 788 18:19:08 cyns: I have a conflict on the 9th but maybe I don't need to be here 18:19:13 zakim, next item 18:19:13 agendum 4 -- [CFCs for ARIA 1.2, ARIA-Practices 1.2](https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2021Nov/thread.html) -- taken up [from jamesn] 18:19:30 \o/ 18:19:40 🎉 18:19:57 🎉🎉🎉🎉 18:20:01 jamesn: positive notes are great! if you have objections, post 18:20:36 jamesn: practices closes today 5pm boston time, aria closes tomorrow 5pm boston time 18:21:27 jamesn: thanks everyone for all of your work!!! 18:21:46 joanie: the idl stuff I don't know how to write tests for that 18:22:25 joanie: there is one on the backburner for posinset and set size, I was working on implement it in chrome, and should browsers calculate it when it is not specifically provided 18:22:58 mcking: right now says how browser should behave, not in a normative statement, there is an expectation that it should be done 18:23:23 jamesn: there is 4 things listed "at risk" that only have two implementations instead of threee 18:23:32 joanie: also there isn't microsoft tests 18:23:46 s/microsoft tests/microsoft test results/ 18:24:10 jamesn: joanie said they aren't really at risk because they are easy to implement 18:24:19 jamesn: how to get windows test results? 18:24:36 joanie: if jon gunderson still has tool to do it, that will be great 18:24:46 joanie: if nothing else I can do test manually 18:24:55 jamesn: scott, do you know how to get test results 18:25:24 joanie: in the past for getting test results for microsoft, microsoft had a hacky tool for running manual tests 18:25:37 joanie: microsoft would deliver tests 18:26:04 scott: i will talk to melanie richardson after this meeting, she is not at microsoft but might know abou tit 18:26:35 cyns: joanie email me what to ask jon 18:26:39 zakim, next item 18:26:39 agendum 5 -- [Clarify how "otherwise interactive" relates to overriding the none/presentation role](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1628) -- taken up [from jamesn] 18:27:10 jamesn: has this been superceded by jcraig pull request? 18:27:32 jamesn: should we drop this? if an element is focusable, drop presentation 18:28:11 scottO has joined #aria 18:28:15 mcking: this otherwise interactive, or focusable, this is all about recovering from author unintended negative consequences of making something role presentation when they shouldn't 18:28:26 jamesn: define when they shouldn't 18:28:43 jamesn: what does it mean to make something interactive 18:29:24 mcking: the consequence of removing this is...? our goal of having the phrase there is to have the browser ignore role presentation in certain situations 18:29:42 mcking: when it would be negative to user 18:29:49 jamesn: but we never defined what that meant 18:30:16 mcking: I'm all for the simplification, unless in practice, browser's are ignoring role presentation? 18:30:32 mcking: if so the consequences might be bad for users if we remove this 18:30:54 jamesn: if an image has a title or tooltip, role=presentation is being ignored 18:31:03 mcking: that is not exactly role presentation 18:31:10 jamesn: but it is similar 18:31:35 mcking: I think an image is different than a div 18:31:43 jamesn: a leaf node vs container node 18:31:54 mcking: now we are back to where we left off last week 18:32:19 mcking: jcraig said something about this 18:32:25 (I missed it ^) 18:32:33 mcking: we need jcraig or aaronlev 18:32:51 jamesn: maybe we should move to next meeting 18:33:16 jamesn: I think we shouldn't approve PR until we discuss this 18:33:18 if implementers approved it we should be okay to merge tbh 18:33:39 mcking: we need firefox's ok too 18:34:31 jamesn: we need a comprehensive def of what we mean by otherwise interactive 18:35:46 aaronlev: I think we should probably leave it as just focusable... but I don't know what jcraig is thinking, like take it out and explain it better later 18:36:34 aaronlev: yeah we need james teh 18:37:09 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1645 18:37:11 jamesn: there is an associated issue filed by jawstest, aaronlev I would like your comment 18:37:23 jamesn: I personally disagree and think it should be closed 18:37:58 aaronlev: I need to spend time thinking about it 18:38:05 aaronlev: I think we use focusable in chrome 18:38:13 aaronlev: but how hard is that to implement? 18:38:22 jamesn: we do focus for aria-hidden 18:38:47 aaronlev: at the moment, chrome, if it is focusable at all.... I mark it as invisible but keep in tree 18:39:02 aaronlev: only for voiceover support we remove it from the tree because there is no invisble 18:39:14 mcking: I'm not sure why jawstest would want to change it 18:39:24 mcking: seems problematic for me to change the tree 18:39:53 mcking: we should make what is presentational so volatile 18:40:22 aaronlev: seems to me like we don't have enough information 18:40:36 aaronlev: what is this going to improve? and if we change it, what new errors will occur? 18:40:51 jamesn: can you look and comment and maybe close, aaronlev ? 18:41:09 aaronlev: I will say please re-open if you have a specific reason why this is a problem for end users 18:41:43 zakim, next item 18:41:43 agendum 6 -- [clarify img naming steps](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/322) -- taken up [from jamesn] 18:42:05 jamesn: scott.... where did we leave this.... 18:42:39 scott: I think the last thing that you and I had a side convo about, instead of continuing to treat images with alt as generics or something 18:42:50 I think I messed that up ^ 18:43:10 scott: I think this change will cause problems for lots of microsoft sites 18:43:24 scott: we need more data, two implementations following the current spec 18:43:49 mcking: as a user, I think this is one of the reasons that lots of people to choose not to use firefox 18:44:14 mcking: when you have an undesirable or extra chattiness 18:44:22 mcking: you will change browsers 18:45:38 mcking: that is right, none is more clearly semantic 18:46:17 mcking: maybe I should add another comment. I agree with his reasoning for wanting this, but, if the none escape hatch is not there for authors, this is a problematic change 18:46:35 mcking: the point that I didn't make is that doing this at all complicates the world for authors 18:46:50 mcking: alt="" gets rid of things, we have been told this forever 18:47:46 jamesn: screen reader users adding comments is more persuasive than the rest of us 18:48:36 As an author and a template lint maintainer, I really like the idea of alt="" AND role="none" 18:48:55 because if the role isn't there, I can throw an error on empty alt 18:49:09 q? 18:49:44 agenda? 18:49:49 zakim, next item 18:49:49 agendum 7 -- [summary element role mapping](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/345) -- taken up [from jamesn] 18:50:11 jamesn: scott, where are we on this? 18:50:18 scottO: lets talk about it 18:50:54 scottO: because it is currently spec button, and we have problems with nested interactions in button, we can request htrml do a spec change, or another idea is to come up with a different role of this...? 18:51:06 scottO: it is exposed as summary for some browsers 18:51:14 scottO: webkit exposed as detailed triangle 18:51:30 mcking: I have seen it exposed as a button, collapsed or expanded 18:51:41 mcking: I swear i have done this a lot 18:51:58 jamesn: if you do have interactive descendants of a button, aaronlev what do you do 18:52:11 aaronlev: we only make a button a leaf if only has text children 18:52:22 aaronlev: the purpose to avoid double announcements 18:52:31 aaronlev: but we don't need to do that for any of the ATs anymore 18:53:10 jamesn: do you do the same for a link....? 18:53:26 aaronlev: if it is aria, we don't truncate descendants 18:53:46 aaronlev: if it is a native role with not possibility of anything interesting in subtree we will truncate 18:54:25 jamesn: if browsers and at can deal with this, is there a new role.... a interactive container with children elements.... that summary/details can use? 18:54:54 a bit of an extreme test case, but this is valid html: https://codepen.io/scottohara/full/WNjgVQd 18:54:58 aaronlev: in the button case it is a descendant, in the summary details is it also a descendent? 18:55:00 jamesn: yes 18:55:08 jamesn: summary can have anything be a child 18:55:19 I have had so many devs do re-writes of elements because they used details/summary 18:55:21 scottO: here is an awful test case with valid html 18:55:49 but WHY is it valid HTML? that doesn't seem correct. It's a nested interactive. 18:55:50 scottO: this is quarky with browser/at combos 18:56:10 mcking: this is not a aria thing it is chrome's bugginess 18:56:18 mcking: in webkit it calls it a summary group 18:56:31 mcking: they made up their own role, whatever 18:56:38 mcking: is that a problem in itself? 18:57:00 scottO: we could ask html to clean this up 18:57:32 scottO: we could make the triangle a button, to separate the button from the test 18:57:49 mcking: oh I didn't realize you can put things in the summary itsself, not the details 18:57:55 YES THAT 100% I agree Matt 18:58:00 mcking: why doesn't html even allow that?????????? 18:58:12 someone said "the devil is not in the details" 18:58:37 jamesn: html allows it, someone might want a summary with a link...? 18:58:50 scottO: there was an original allowance, but then they opened the floodgates 18:58:54 I would really like it disallowed, folks are using stuff like this for menu dropdowns :( 18:59:24 mcking: if you have a separate for expand/collapse.. when you expand the summary to be everything 18:59:48 jamesn: even aria people try to do these things, child focusables in a focusable thing 19:00:02 james: what if we have some kind of thing to support this? 19:00:18 mcking: what do you expose when the container has focus? 19:00:25 mcking: same problem as grid cells 19:00:38 jamesn: if authors want it, we should make it a feature 19:00:50 Would we be opening the floodgates for more nested interactives if we did? 19:01:23 mcking: the way screen readers and accessibility trees have evolved will make it hard to fix in a way that is implementable and understandable by screen reader users 19:02:04 zakim, make minutes 19:02:04 I don't understand 'make minutes', spectranaut 19:02:13 RRSAgent make minutes 19:02:16 RRSAgent: make minutes 19:02:16 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/18-aria-minutes.html spectranaut 19:02:19 bkardell_ has joined #aria 19:03:15 present+ 20:54:06 agendabot has joined #aria