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14:41:26 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/11/11-epub-a11y-irc
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14:41:58 <avneeshsingh> zakim, this will be epub-a11y
14:41:58 <Zakim> ok, avneeshsingh
14:42:09 <avneeshsingh> zakim, next agendum
14:42:09 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
14:42:15 <avneeshsingh> present+
14:43:16 <avneeshsingh> chair: avneeshsingh
14:43:42 <avneeshsingh> agenda+ APA has approved accessibility horizontal review of EPUB 3.3 family of specifications
14:44:04 <avneeshsingh> agenda+ Normative references to a specification of metadata properties are needed.: #1799
14:44:25 <avneeshsingh> agenda+ a11y and audio: #1302
14:44:50 <avneeshsingh> agenda+ Guidance should be given regarding acceptable algorithms for including page navigation in reflowable EPUB publications that do not have statically paginated: #1801
14:45:14 <avneeshsingh> agenda+ Are we good to go for Candidate recommendation?
14:45:31 <avneeshsingh> agenda+ Any other business.
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14:59:15 <gpellegrino> present+
14:59:24 <tzviya> present+
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15:00:10 <MattChan> MattChan has joined #epub-a11y
15:00:16 <wendyreid> present+
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15:01:45 <JF> Present+
15:01:56 <MattChan> present+
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15:05:13 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
15:05:14 <MattChan> scribe+
15:05:33 <avneeshsingh> zakim, next agendum
15:05:33 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- APA has approved accessibility horizontal review of EPUB 3.3 family of specifications -- taken up [from avneeshsingh]
15:05:33 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
15:06:00 <avneeshsingh> https://www.w3.org/2021/11/10-apa-minutes.html
15:06:00 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: APA has approved horizontal review of epub 33 spec
15:06:14 <avneeshsingh> zakim, next agendum
15:06:14 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, avneeshsingh
15:06:30 <mgarrish> present+
15:06:32 <avneeshsingh> zakim, next agendum
15:06:32 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, avneeshsingh
15:06:49 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
15:06:57 <MattChan> TOPIC: Normative references to a specification of metadata properties are needed.: #1799
15:07:19 <JF> zakim, close item 1
15:07:19 <Zakim> agendum 1, APA has approved accessibility horizontal review of EPUB 3.3 family of specifications, closed
15:07:21 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:07:21 <Zakim> 2. Normative references to a specification of metadata properties are needed.: #1799 [from avneeshsingh]
15:07:23 <JF> zakim, nest item
15:07:23 <Zakim> I don't understand 'nest item', JF
15:07:29 <JF> zakim, next item
15:07:29 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Normative references to a specification of metadata properties are needed.: #1799 -- taken up [from avneeshsingh]
15:07:53 <avneeshsingh> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1799
15:08:11 <avneeshsingh> new CG for governance: https://www.w3.org/community/a11y-discov-vocab/
15:08:25 <avneeshsingh> published vocab: https://www.w3.org/2021/a11y-discov-vocab/latest/
15:08:26 <MattChan> mgarrish: basically this issue is about whether we're allowed to use Schema references. We've created CG to maintain vocab that was in Schema
15:08:37 <avneeshsingh> GitHub: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-discov-vocab/blob/main/README.md
15:08:45 <MattChan> ... CG document has been published, and open PR updates the references in our spec and techniques doc
15:08:49 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
15:09:12 <avneeshsingh> q
15:09:16 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:09:51 <MattChan> ... there is an issue open with Schema.org on which we are still waiting for their approval
15:09:59 <MattChan> ... in the meantime we're holding
15:10:16 <avneeshsingh> zakim, next agendum
15:10:16 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- a11y and audio: #1302 -- taken up [from avneeshsingh]
15:10:17 <MattChan> ... almost a given that this will happen at this point
15:10:28 <avneeshsingh> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1302
15:10:47 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: issue is about audio hazards, which are underspecified currently
15:10:49 <avneeshsingh> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/1903
15:10:49 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
15:10:55 <MattChan> ... what should be considered an audio hazard?
15:11:10 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:11:45 <MattChan> mgarrish: we're referencing here the Schema metadata (which was formerly IMS metadata), so not much we can do
15:12:10 <MattChan> ... lack of standard on when audio constitutes a hazard
15:12:24 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:12:27 <MattChan> ... next step will be to pursue this in the new vocabulary CG
15:12:49 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
15:13:05 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: if we want to put pressure on WAI, would it make more sense to keep this issue in epub 33 wg
15:13:14 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:13:31 <JF> Q+
15:13:37 <MattChan> mgarrish: we should maybe open an issue in WAI tracker
15:14:00 <tzviya> +1 to mgarrish
15:14:13 <MattChan> ... you sent an email to them earlier this year to put it on their radar, but it may have been forgotten now
15:14:17 <avneeshsingh> Proposed: Approved PR 1903
15:14:27 <mgarrish> +1
15:14:28 <wendyreid> +1
15:14:28 <MattChan> +1
15:14:29 <gpellegrino> +1
15:14:30 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
15:14:32 <wendyreid> george: +1
15:14:37 <MURATA> +1
15:14:47 <avneeshsingh> ack jf
15:15:11 <MattChan> JF: i would recommend that we not take this to a11y guidelines wg, it'll get lost
15:15:13 <avneeshsingh> resolved
15:15:17 <MattChan> ... they are very busy now
15:15:27 <MattChan> ... maybe take this to APA, research questions TF
15:15:34 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:15:49 <MattChan> mgarrish: great! Thank you.
15:15:49 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
15:16:15 <MattChan> JF: two categories of sound hazards I can think of: 1) auto-start/loud, and 2) specific types of sounds like explosions
15:16:22 <MattChan> ... this sort of thing is perfect for the research questions TF
15:16:28 <tzviya> q+
15:16:46 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: APA is also more research oriented
15:17:50 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
15:18:19 <MattChan> JF: AG is focused on a11y scoring issue right now. You can log the issue against WCAG3 if you want, but I would not recommend
15:18:20 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:18:32 <avneeshsingh> ack tz
15:18:32 <tzviya> ack me
15:19:15 <MattChan> George: maybe this is something that can go into DaisyKB, that people are aware of volumes, that if there are sudden amplitude jumps that a hazard should be entered into epub metadata
15:19:26 <MattChan> mgarrish: yeah, we can certainly do that. Within our domain.
15:19:33 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: we will discuss that further via email
15:19:41 <MattChan> ... for now mgarrish please open the issue with APA
15:19:50 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
15:19:51 <MattChan> ... and we may point AG to this issue again in future
15:19:56 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:20:16 <MattChan> ... and also email WAI group to raise this question
15:20:23 <avneeshsingh> zakim, next agendum
15:20:23 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Guidance should be given regarding acceptable algorithms for including page navigation in reflowable EPUB publications that do not have statically paginated: #1801 --
15:20:27 <Zakim> ... taken up [from avneeshsingh]
15:20:38 <avneeshsingh> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1801
15:21:13 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: this issue was already closed. But if any members feel we need to discuss further, we can discuss this now.
15:21:31 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:21:44 <MattChan> ... basically there was a request that we provide guidance on page numbers for digital only publications, but in the meantime this work is already being taken on by virtual locators TF
15:21:47 <avneeshsingh> zakim, next agendum
15:21:47 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Are we good to go for Candidate recommendation? -- taken up [from avneeshsingh]
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15:22:01 <wendyreid> q+
15:22:10 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: are we okay to go to CR, or does the group need to do more work first?
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15:22:50 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:22:51 <MattChan> wendyreid: we talked about this yesterday in chairs call. In terms of a11y we are good. We have approval from APA. We're just waiting on formal approval from i18n. Big concern now is PING.
15:22:57 <avneeshsingh> ack wen
15:23:02 <MattChan> ... we have an extensive number of issues we have to respond to
15:23:22 <MattChan> ... we're probably looking at end of dec or jan for going to PR
15:23:28 <MattChan> ... we also haven't had our TAG review yet
15:23:49 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
15:23:50 <MattChan> ... i'm not as reviewed about that review (though dauwe or ivan may disagree)
15:24:06 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:24:17 <MURATA> +q
15:24:20 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: and if we are affected it would be epub 33 affected as a whole, not specifically epub a11y spec
15:24:42 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:24:51 <mgarrish> q+
15:24:58 <avneeshsingh> ack next
15:25:01 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes, there were questions about DRM, obfuscation, etc. But we're going to try to address that by finding the right language
15:25:27 <tzviya> q+ to ask MURATA if anyone responded to open letter about ruby
15:25:27 <MattChan> Mokoto: will the status of techniques change?
15:25:35 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:25:46 <avneeshsingh> ack next
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15:25:53 <JF> techniques are never normative
15:25:57 <MattChan> mgarrish: they'll be a wg note. It doesn't go through the same series of steps.
15:26:13 <MattChan> Makoto: so we can continue to update it?
15:26:31 <JF> Q+
15:26:36 <avneeshsingh> ack next
15:26:37 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask MURATA if anyone responded to open letter about ruby
15:26:44 <wendyreid> q+ george
15:26:55 <MattChan> wendyreid: it would come down to a WG vote. And if there are significant changes we could even resolve to update the version number. That would come down to the WG too.
15:27:20 <MURATA> q+
15:27:26 <MattChan> mgarrish: PING raised issue about information escaping from the epub - i.e. user preferences being extracted
15:27:40 <MattChan> ... but if we're addressing that in core we don't need to re-address in epub a11y
15:27:49 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
15:28:17 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:28:32 <MattChan> George: when we update techniques (e.g. when need arises) what happens when WG is dissolved? Is that then something that is done in maintenance?
15:29:02 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: yes, even if epub 33 wg ends, the maintenance group can take on updates to techniques, etc.
15:29:05 <avneeshsingh> ack jf
15:29:13 <MattChan> wendyreid: right, it would be a general epub 3 maintenance group
15:29:46 <MattChan> JF: i think W3C process says that we could update that document whenever we want, and yes I think we could even do our own versioning, its up to us
15:29:48 <avneeshsingh> ack next
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15:31:11 <MattChan> Makoto: JP DAISY proposes new note for a11y for JP publication. Covering things like Ruby, automatic insertion of spaces, restrictions on use of characters to prevent confusion between similar looking ideographic characters, etc.
15:31:42 <MattChan> ... will be referred to in JIS standard
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15:32:28 <MattChan> ... so we will propose the addition of this note. We will start early next year, with work on the note to be completed around Aug
15:32:49 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:33:10 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
15:33:20 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: we can discuss whether this note is good fit for epub 3 wg (or maybe another document) once we start to see some of the content of the note
15:33:31 <MattChan> ... maybe publishing community group
15:33:37 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:33:43 <avneeshsingh> ack next
15:33:50 <MattChan> ... we can discuss after you start on this work next year
15:34:13 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:34:14 <mgarrish> q+
15:34:15 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: so should we continue convening these regular calls?
15:34:18 <MURATA> +q
15:34:37 <avneeshsingh> ack next
15:34:39 <MattChan> mgarrish: i went through the tracker yesterday and every issue as PR
15:34:59 <MattChan> ... assuming everything gets cleaned up after this call, i don't see us taking on anything big after this
15:35:14 <avneeshsingh> ack next
15:35:15 <MattChan> ... support having calls on an "as needed" basis
15:35:32 <MattChan> MURATA: some members of JP DAISY have questions about rs behaviour/navigation
15:35:49 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
15:36:15 <MattChan> ... in epubs with notes, do people continue reading all the notes without linking back to the reference in the document?
15:36:21 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:36:27 <MattChan> tzviya: so you mean things like footnotes and endnotes?
15:36:35 <MattChan> MURATA: yes
15:36:43 <MattChan> tzviya: sounds like a best practices issue
15:37:04 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:37:07 <MattChan> mgarrish: and how RSes handle notes isn't defined in the first place, so I'm not sure where we'd begin with this
15:37:25 <MattChan> ... maybe the cg could make a list of the various implementations out there, and which are accessible vs not?
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15:37:52 <MattChan> tzviya: i think all RS at this point have a back button? So we kind of rely on this when authors don't embed backlink
15:38:05 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:38:09 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: on topics like this I think we should start the discussion in publishing CG
15:38:22 <avneeshsingh> zakim, next agendum
15:38:22 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Any other business. -- taken up [from avneeshsingh]
15:38:54 <MattChan> MURATA: when nav elements contain deep structures, could we have something that lets us go up 2 steps, for example? At present the spec doesn't say much about such commands
15:39:16 <MattChan> ... will these be up to the implementers? Will we say what is desirable in this regard?
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15:40:09 <MattChan> tzviya: good questions, but the answers to your questions are non-normative, right? If we wanted to make something like best practices for RS implementors we want to incubate that in publishing CG first
15:40:44 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:40:53 <MattChan> ... there maybe resistance from RS implementors to document the way they handle these sorts of features, its a differentiators and competitive advantage
15:41:08 <tzviya> EPUB 3.3 Reading Systems https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-rs-33/
15:41:13 <JF> "Expected Outcomes"
15:41:22 <MattChan> mgarrish: there are also app based and web based RSes, hard to say how all sorts of RS should behave
15:41:23 <JF> Q+
15:41:27 <avneeshsingh> q?
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15:42:27 <MattChan> George: i've seen this problem with navigation in different RS, especially with textbooks. I wonder if in our RS testing we should mark this as a test to add to our test book.
15:42:35 <MattChan> ... Thorium lets you navigate by heading
15:42:48 <MattChan> ... the CG is welcome to join us in that discussion
15:42:50 <avneeshsingh> ack jf
15:43:22 <MattChan> JF: this reminds me of UA a11y guidelines work that is no longer active
15:43:37 <MattChan> ... rather, you define expected outcomes, and then how UA get to those outcomes is up to them
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15:44:08 <MattChan> ... WCAG3 really wants to start address some of this as well, but its tricky because as I say we don't want to be prescriptive
15:44:13 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:45:11 <MattChan> ... in terms of getting something like this integrated into WCAG3, if this group wanted to work on something like this over the next year that would work for WCAG3's timing i think
15:45:28 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: so MURATA let's start this discussion in Publishing WG
15:45:34 <MattChan> MURATA: okay, thank you
15:45:36 <JF> s/UA a11y guidelines work/UA a11y guidelines work (UAAG)
15:45:42 <avneeshsingh> q?
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15:45:54 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: did you get response on the open letter about Ruby a11y
15:46:12 <MattChan> MURATA: we've received response from MS, Google, Apple, but not from WHAT-WG
15:46:36 <MattChan> tzviya: positive that you at least got responses from the major browsers
15:47:08 <avneeshsingh> q?
15:47:19 <MattChan> MURATA: we've asked questions to JP Google, especially because they are trying to sell their browser for use in JP education system
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15:47:52 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: I think we can end the call now. We'll skip the next scheduled call.
15:47:57 <tzviya> 🍾
15:48:14 <MattChan> ... congratulations everyone, and thank you to all!
15:48:23 <MattChan> George: thank you avneeshsingh for your oversight and leadership
15:48:33 <MattChan> Bill_Kasdorf: agreed
15:49:41 <avneeshsingh> rrsagent, make logs public
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15:49:52 <avneeshsingh> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:49:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/11-epub-a11y-minutes.html avneeshsingh
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