17:42:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:42:47 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/11/11-aria-irc
17:42:50 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:42:51 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:42:58 <jamesn> Meeting: aria WG
17:59:58 <IrfanA> IrfanA has joined #aria
18:00:35 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
18:00:49 <jamesn> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3wyDMtO)
18:00:49 <jamesn> agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3n2gnhh)
18:00:49 <jamesn> agenda+ [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates)
18:00:49 <jamesn> agenda+ Holiday Meeting plans. No meeting Nov 25, 2021.
18:00:49 <jamesn> agenda+ [Updating ARIA 1.2 due to IDL implementations (exit and re-enter CR?)](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1598)
18:00:50 <jamesn> agenda+ [Proposal: do not follow aria-labelledby/aria-describedby into content-visibility:hidden](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/146)
18:00:50 <jamesn> agenda+ [Clarify how "otherwise interactive" relates to overriding the none/presentation role](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1628)
18:00:50 <jamesn> agenda+ [clarify img naming steps](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/322)
18:00:50 <jamesn> agenda+ [summary element role mapping](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/345)
18:03:59 <jamesn> agenda?
18:05:12 <aaronlev> aaronlev has joined #aria
18:06:12 <harris> harris has joined #aria
18:06:15 <IrfanA> present+
18:06:26 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
18:06:31 <harris_> harris_ has joined #aria
18:07:01 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
18:07:05 <jcraig> present+
18:07:14 <harris_> harris_ has joined #aria
18:07:43 <jcraig> agenda?
18:07:51 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 1
18:07:51 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3wyDMtO) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:08:04 <aaronlev_> aaronlev_ has joined #aria
18:08:18 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/96
18:08:28 <harris_> present+
18:08:39 <aaronlev_> present+
18:08:48 <jcraig> jamesn: Name and Description change events do not provide a mechanism for optionally cancelling the firing of these events when needed
18:09:09 <jcraig> jamesn: would need a spec change
18:09:43 <jcraig> joanie: would be some implementation impacts... if name changes aren't fired, the AT representations may get stale
18:10:09 <jcraig> jamesn: @@@ should be livr region at that point
18:10:16 <jcraig> s/livr/live
18:10:18 <jcraig> s/livr/live/
18:10:44 <jcraig> jamesn: transferring to ARIA repor in 1.4 milestone
18:10:55 <jcraig> aaronlev_: should find more use cases
18:11:07 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1640
18:11:20 <jcraig> jamesn: "mixed state for aria-checked at option and treeitem?"
18:11:25 <jcraig> 1.3?
18:11:34 <siri> siri has joined #aria
18:12:03 <jcraig> mk: what is the scope of 1.3 vs 1.4?
18:12:29 <jcraig> jamesn: was just thinking small scope for 1.3, but I agree we shouldn't pile on. moving to 1.4
18:12:38 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1636
18:12:48 <jcraig> jamesn: "Hyperlinks, scrollbars or pagination inside role=document"
18:13:39 <jcraig> soh: either 1.4 or closed? Need to re-review.
18:13:57 <jcraig> don't think it's a problem. but leave open in 1.4 for now.
18:14:07 <jcraig> zakim, close item 1
18:14:07 <Zakim> agendum 1, [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3wyDMtO), closed
18:14:08 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:14:08 <Zakim> 2. [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3n2gnhh) [from jamesn]
18:14:13 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 2
18:14:13 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3n2gnhh) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:14:29 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/355
18:14:47 <jcraig> soh: hold off on review
18:15:05 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1639
18:15:22 <jcraig> jamesn: "role=note fleshed out a little."
18:16:07 <jcraig> adding James Craig and Aaron
18:16:20 <jcraig> s/Aaron/Aaron as reviewers/
18:16:37 <jcraig> jamesn: https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1638 is editorial...
18:16:50 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1637 also editorial
18:17:04 <jcraig> zakim, close item 2
18:17:04 <Zakim> agendum 2, [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3n2gnhh), closed
18:17:05 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:17:05 <Zakim> 3. [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) [from jamesn]
18:17:08 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 3
18:17:08 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:18:07 <jcraig> another one re: "update spec text wrt hidden elements"?
18:18:29 <jcraig> Dec 2 is next open opportunity
18:18:44 <jcraig> mk: is this blocking an AccName release?
18:19:03 <jcraig> bg: need to finish some PRs before moving to next publish state...
18:19:15 <jcraig> jamesn: so not blocking
18:19:33 <jcraig> cyns: accname versioned or living spec?
18:19:49 <jcraig> jamesn: versioned... no current plan to make it living spec.
18:20:13 <jcraig> perhaps after re-charter approved... don't recall if that's one of the ones mentioned.
18:23:01 <jcraig> Dec 2 is sight tech global
18:23:27 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/788
18:23:28 <jcraig> Dec 9: aria-hitpoint #788 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/788
18:23:42 <jcraig> zakim, close item 3
18:23:42 <Zakim> agendum 3, [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates), closed
18:23:44 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:23:44 <Zakim> 4. Holiday Meeting plans. No meeting Nov 25, 2021. [from jamesn]
18:23:50 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 4
18:23:50 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Holiday Meeting plans. No meeting Nov 25, 2021. -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:24:05 <IrfanA> q+
18:24:24 <jcraig> meeting on Nov 18, but not Nov 25
18:24:35 <jcraig> no meeting Dec 23 or 30th
18:25:24 <jcraig> Ali: APA next meeting on Dec 1... 10 EST (Pac 7 AM PST)
18:25:50 <jcraig> pronunciation deep dive
18:26:20 <jcraig> Avneesh Singh may want to be there too.
18:28:02 <jcraig> s/Avneesh Singh/Avneesh Singh in Delhi/
18:29:40 <jamesn> agenda?
18:29:50 <jamesn> close this item
18:29:56 <jamesn> ack IrfanA
18:30:00 <jcraig> Ali: keeping at 7 AM Pac, but we can delay the topic til 7:10 or 7:15
18:30:10 <jcraig> Also George Kerscher
18:30:16 <jcraig> zakim, close item 4
18:30:16 <Zakim> agendum 4, Holiday Meeting plans. No meeting Nov 25, 2021., closed
18:30:18 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:30:18 <Zakim> 5. [Updating ARIA 1.2 due to IDL implementations (exit and re-enter CR?)](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1598) [from jamesn]
18:30:21 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 5
18:30:21 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- [Updating ARIA 1.2 due to IDL implementations (exit and re-enter CR?)](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1598) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:32:28 <jamesn> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria/noEnumerated/index.html
18:32:39 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/commit/05e3980f1dca08bc6491fa07f682d3645fb9d0b0
18:32:46 <jcraig> made a new PR (not yet linked) that replaces "enumerated" with "multi-value" etc based on feedback
18:33:28 <cyns> +1
18:33:32 <jcraig> would like feedback
18:33:47 <Jemma> Jemma has joined #aria
18:34:21 <Jemma> present+
18:34:37 <Jemma> agenda?
18:34:44 <jcraig> jamesn: left in use of "enumerated" in a note that explicitly references HTML's "enumerated attribute"
18:35:13 <cyns> <dd>One of a limited set of allowed values. The default value is defined in each attribute's Values table, as specified in the <a href="#enumerated-attribute-values">Attribute Values</a> section.</dd>
18:35:13 <jcraig> jamesn: will add this to the PR for 1598
18:36:28 <jcraig> James: "Multi-Value Attributes"
18:36:29 <Jemma> https://www.w3.org/2021/09/draft-wai-glossary
18:36:43 <Jemma> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/common-microsyntaxes.html#enumerated-attribute
18:38:59 <jcraig> [editorial discussion re: PR]
18:41:22 <Jemma> https://w3c.github.io/aria/#idl-reflection-attribute-values
18:41:55 <jcraig> to be continued on Slack
18:42:02 <jcraig> zakim, close item 5
18:42:02 <Zakim> agendum 5, [Updating ARIA 1.2 due to IDL implementations (exit and re-enter CR?)](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1598), closed
18:42:04 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:42:04 <Zakim> 6. [Proposal: do not follow aria-labelledby/aria-describedby into content-visibility:hidden](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/146) [from jamesn]
18:42:06 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 6
18:42:06 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [Proposal: do not follow aria-labelledby/aria-describedby into content-visibility:hidden](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/146) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:42:08 <Jemma> present+
18:43:21 <jcraig> aaronlev_: content-visibility: hidden somewhat like display none, but if rendered before, doesn't throw away the rendering work for perf reasons
18:44:20 <jcraig> jamesn: MDN references not supported in Firefox and WebKit
18:44:40 <Jemma> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/content-visibility
18:45:04 <Jemma> see the bottom table for compatibility
18:45:49 <jcraig> aaronlev_: could wait for further update from implementors... Since in Chrome, we can prototype support and advise at a later date
18:45:57 <jcraig> zakim, close item 6
18:45:57 <Zakim> agendum 6, [Proposal: do not follow aria-labelledby/aria-describedby into content-visibility:hidden](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/146), closed
18:46:00 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:46:00 <Zakim> 7. [Clarify how "otherwise interactive" relates to overriding the none/presentation role](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1628) [from jamesn]
18:46:01 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 7
18:46:02 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- [Clarify how "otherwise interactive" relates to overriding the none/presentation role](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1628) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:46:56 <jamesn> q+
18:46:59 <Jemma> rrsagent, make minutes
18:46:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/11-aria-minutes.html Jemma
18:47:38 <jcraig> <div role="none" onclick="alert('Hello world');">Test</div>
18:47:39 <harris> jcraig: the text is "If an element is focusable, or otherwise interactive, user agents MUST ignore the presentation role and expose the element with its implicit role, in order to ensure that the element is operable."
18:48:23 <harris> jcraig: we've got a div with a role of "none" and a click event on it. It seems like this one is obvious that it should be interactive. Aaron came up with some examples of event delegation - we'd effectively override everywhere
18:48:25 <jcraig> Aaron's example:
18:48:30 <harris> jcraig:
18:48:31 <jcraig> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ik53pKRG/
18:48:41 <jcraig> <div role="none" onclick="foo()">
18:48:41 <jcraig>    <div role="button>button 1</div>
18:48:41 <jcraig>    <div role="button>button 2</div>
18:48:41 <jcraig>    <div role="button>button 3</div>
18:48:41 <jcraig> </div>
18:48:50 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1628#issuecomment-961287860
18:49:16 <harris> aaronlev_: you don't want the toolbar in the example to be tab stop
18:49:31 <jamesn> q-
18:50:32 <harris> jcraig: I think we could probably ignore any delegation.
18:50:42 <jcraig> <div role="none" onclick="alert('Hello world');">Test</div>
18:51:15 <cyns> what about <div role="none" onclick="alert('Hello world');">Test <b>me</b></div>
18:51:19 <harris> Matt: you have to know everything that is inside that element in the tree
18:51:52 <harris> jcraig: should we ignore the role of none in this case?
18:52:20 <jcraig> if we ignore all event delegation... should we ignore role=none on the same element with the handler if it is a leaf node?
18:52:23 <harris> Matt: if this is in the ARIA spec and we're talking about a very dom/html specific case...is this a matter of actually defining the term "otherwise interactive"?
18:52:40 <harris> jcraig: I don't think it is HTML-specific
18:53:52 <harris> jcraig: in the case of this div, we would just call it "clickable". We don't know what the div is
18:54:19 <harris> Matt: with VoiceOver on Mac, you see 3 things: you see the group, then you see the text, then the end of the group
18:54:24 <jamesn> q+
18:54:26 <harris> jcraig: I don't think that is the case.
18:54:34 <harris> jcraig: a div with an aria-label might do that
18:54:47 <harris> Matt: I've observed it with no other properties other than it being clickable
18:55:09 <jcraig> matt is likely right
18:55:19 <harris> Bryan: We flag this kind of thing all of the time as violations
18:55:40 <harris> Matt: this is more of a recovery thing
18:56:01 <jamesn> ack me
18:56:30 <harris> jamesn: I'm a little concerned that we might end up exposing a ton of things that weren't meant to be exposed on web pages
18:56:57 <harris> jamesn: what about rolling it back to generic?
18:57:11 <aaronlev_> q+
18:57:14 <harris> jcraig: that is fair. In the case of an image, it would effectively be exposed as "clickable"
18:57:50 <harris> comment from github: "Another case might be where the author has the same functionality available on a nearby widget, and doesn't want to expose it in the tree twice (e.g. there's a separate thumbnail and caption that you can click on)."
18:57:59 <jcraig> ack aaronlev_
18:58:11 <jcraig> q+ aaronlev_
18:58:34 <jamesn> ack aaronlev_
18:58:45 <harris> Matt: aria-hidden doesn't affect role=presentation. It takes precedence
18:59:23 <harris> jamesn: firefox exposes an image with a title on it even if it has alt=""
18:59:36 <harris> jcraig: that is because there is technically interactivity there - hover to get title tooltip
18:59:58 <harris> aaronlev_: aria-hidden is a fair point when we want to avoid redundant verbalizations
19:00:15 <harris> aaronlev_: unless a person can actually move to the element, I feel like it is a good time to respect the author
19:00:29 <harris> aaronlev_: I'm not sure the author would know why one would work and one wouldn't
19:00:29 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria
19:00:45 <harris> jcraig: you've convinced me that we should ignore delegation
19:01:14 <harris> siri: what is the default role for div
19:01:17 <harris> jcraig: generic
19:01:32 <harris> jamesn: the div was just an example. This could apply to many different things
19:01:51 <harris> Matt: we should continue this discussion next week
19:02:17 <harris> jcraig: let's get to this earlier in the call next time
19:02:45 <jcraig> s/ignore delegation/not override the role on any element where event delegation may be used/
19:02:50 <harris> zakim, who is on the call?
19:02:50 <Zakim> Present: Joanmarie_Diggs, IrfanA, jcraig, harris_, aaronlev_, Jemma
19:03:13 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:03:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/11-aria-minutes.html jcraig
19:38:13 <jcraig> s/Aaron's example:/scribe: harris/
19:38:19 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:38:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/11-aria-minutes.html jcraig
19:40:34 <jcraig> present+ Scott_OHara
19:40:44 <jcraig> present+ Matt_King
19:41:23 <jcraig> Zakim, please part
19:41:23 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, IrfanA, jcraig, harris_, aaronlev_, Jemma, Scott_OHara, Matt_King
19:41:23 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
19:41:40 <jcraig> present+ jamesn
19:41:45 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:41:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/11-aria-minutes.html jcraig
19:42:15 <jcraig> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
19:42:17 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:42:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/11-aria-minutes.html jcraig
19:42:54 <jcraig> present+ cyns
19:42:55 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:42:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/11-aria-minutes.html jcraig
19:43:30 <jcraig> Chair: James_Nurthen
19:43:31 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:43:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/11-aria-minutes.html jcraig
19:44:35 <jcraig> regrets+ Peter Krautzberger
19:44:44 <jcraig> regrets+ Mark McCarthy
19:45:05 <jcraig> regrets+ William Tennis
19:45:08 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
19:45:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/11-aria-minutes.html jcraig
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