13:12:12 RRSAgent has joined #silver-protocols 13:12:12 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/11/05-silver-protocols-irc 13:12:14 RRSAgent, make logs Public 13:12:15 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jeanne 13:12:39 meeting: WCAG3 Protocols Subgroup 13:13:01 chair: JohnFoliot 13:13:23 present+ JF, Cooper, jeanne 13:17:13 MC: I am concerned that people will game the system by claiming a protocol with no measurement. I would not want people to be able to declasre that they are conformant on something that isn't measureable 13:19:17 JS: that's why I am recommending that Bronze be measureable guideline level and Silver level be a different currancy where we require Bronze level and give points toward the Silver level by a declaration of adopting the protocol 13:19:43 JF: I object because it makes a protocol AAA, it is optional. 13:20:19 JS: But it is a like ISO9001 where people are declaring because they want to declare a higher level than bronze. 13:20:41 JF: I don't want to declare what regulators have to do 13:21:27 MC: But we have many group members who want language that can be used in regulatory environment. 13:22:15 JF: I want to try and figure out how we make the Content Usable fully part of WCAG3 13:22:56 MC: We could measure the inputs to the protocol -- Do they have the training, personnel, and the tools to implement the protocol? 13:23:34 ... You are making sure that certain things can be verified that they are following the steps needed for achieving the output 13:24:16 JF: Looking at COGA - Help users identify mistakes and avoid them. That's a clear command, but I don't know how to measure it. 13:25:12 MC: If we are solving with a protocol, then we are using procedures that are like: train your staff in making mistakes, run it through a readability checker. 13:25:54 JF: We can measure the evidence without measuring the outcome 13:26:35 JF has joined #silver-protocols 13:27:00 JS: It fits what I'm proposing in the Validating section 13:27:04 rrsagent, make minutes 13:27:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/05-silver-protocols-minutes.html jeanne 13:27:30 JF: How do we measure the evidence and how rigorous is it? 13:27:49 ... in the conformance model, the digital property has a conformance statement 13:28:13 ... to make entities accountable to these protocols, we need a statement 13:29:04 JS: What about in a accessibility statement? 13:29:50 MC: It could be either. We can come back to a statement and whether it is machine readable. There are other that are more urgent 13:31:07 MC: There could be a training protocol where you provide a list of trianing, you could have a checklist protocol for developers that they have to follow and then measure whether they follow that protocol 13:31:59 JF: We have the text alternative decision tree. That would be a valuable document 13:32:42 MC: Take that example: the protocol is to walk the decision tree and check it off; 13:33:09 ... simply to say that for this category of issue, follow this set of good ideas 13:35:25 JS: You could have a measurement that there is training, there is a plan for training new employess, that the devs have a copy of the decision tree, and that there is management or peer review of the code that show that the decision tree has been followed. 13:35:49 MC: That is too broad, we need to start more narrow. We would need a training protocol for that. 13:36:20 JF: Both Android and iOS have guidelines that have specific guidelines for accessible mobile platforms 13:36:37 ... we could give points for that 13:37:26 MC: I am looking at an abstract level -- that each protocol would have its own conformance definition and we would refer to it. 13:37:39 JF: Each protocol is responsible for defining how to measure success 13:38:06 ... we could put that in the rules for each protocol 13:39:08 MC: Or we could define that each require a list of checklist items and how to meet them and measure it. 13:39:46 JS: That is a lot more work than we want to do. 13:40:13 ... we want to be able to point to a document and see "do that" 13:41:01 MC: I don't think we want to start with a document like Content Usable to start - we should look at a document that is more designed as a protocol 13:41:35 JF: COntent Usable has good objectives, and how to meet it 13:44:10 JS: What about BBC Mobile Guidelines? They are widely accepted, they are a checklist of how to measure it. 13:44:34 MC: We could have a protocol that wraps Content Usable to give measurement. 13:45:46 ... how to ensure that Content Usable is followed with appropriate training and effort. 13:46:32 JF: When I look at good potential protocols, they give good instruction and how to measure it. 13:46:40 MC: So we should start with them 13:46:59 JF: Maybe we should call them guidance documents instead of a protocol. 13:47:55 rrsagent, make minutes 13:47:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/05-silver-protocols-minutes.html jeanne 14:41:41 GreggVan has joined #silver-protocols 16:42:05 s/train your staff in making mistakes/train your staff in identifying where mistakes can be made 16:42:18 rrsagent, make minutes 16:42:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/05-silver-protocols-minutes.html jeanne 16:42:59 s/There are other that are more urgent/There are other issues that are more urgent 16:43:51 s/trianing/training 16:44:52 s/a list of training/a list of necessary training 16:45:54 s/see "do that"/say "do that" 16:47:13 rrsagent, make minutes 16:47:13 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/05-silver-protocols-minutes.html jeanne 16:57:39 jeanne has left #silver-protocols 17:12:05 Zakim has left #silver-protocols 19:01:49 GreggVan has joined #silver-protocols