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18:58:01 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/11/02-immersive-web-irc
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19:02:11 <cabanier> present+
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19:05:52 <yonet> scribe: laford
19:05:56 <yonet> chair yonet
19:06:00 <yonet> chair:yonet
19:06:53 <laford> cabanier: Two options to expose depth testing layers
19:06:58 <yonet> agenda:https://github.com/immersive-web/administrivia/blob/main/meetings/wg/2021-11-02-Immersive_Web_Working_Group_Teleconference-agenda.md
19:07:05 <laford> ... boolean field that determines support
19:07:18 <laford> ... or feature that you opt into on session creation time
19:07:26 <bajones> q+
19:07:36 <laford> ... if you opt in it will always be enabled and projection layers decide to opt in or opt out
19:07:53 <laford> ... others are rendered in normal order (submission order)
19:08:13 <laford> ... made a PR for option 2. Its more flexible for UAs to polyfill it \
19:08:36 <laford> ... if its optional and it is returned as not supported, you activate the polyfill
19:08:46 <laford> ... First: opt in on layer creation
19:08:52 <laford> ... Second: opt in on session creation time
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19:09:02 <yonet> ack bajones
19:09:21 <laford> bajones: For non-projection layers, this is an all or nothing thing?
19:09:40 <laford> ... what would be the behavior if you mix and match types of layers, with different depth sort options?
19:09:59 <laford> cabanier: OpenXR is not defined that way. Every layer can pick whether or not its to be depth sorted
19:10:14 <laford> ... don't need that flexibility though, so makes sense to globally opt in
19:10:24 <laford> bajones: That makes the most sense to me as well
19:10:32 <laford> ... would be nice to sanity check OpenXR's design decision
19:10:49 <laford> ... is there a use case that required that?
19:10:57 <RafaelCintron_> RafaelCintron_ has joined #immersive-web
19:11:10 <laford> ... Would like the name of the feature to include the word 'layers'
19:11:14 <yonet> q?
19:11:25 <laford> +q
19:11:54 <yonet> ack laford
19:11:59 <laford> laford: layers in OpenXR was a fb driven spec
19:12:01 <yonet> agendum 2: https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/issues/265
19:13:32 <laford> cabanier: Someone was integrating media layers. Required a stereo equirect layer. Combined with controllers rendering, they are not correctly mixed with the stereo equirect layer
19:13:52 <laford> ... no way to quickly switch to mono
19:14:04 <laford> ... Could there be an attribute to switch back to mono temporarily
19:14:24 <bajones> q+
19:14:26 <laford> ... We do not want a mono layer to be able to switch to stereo
19:14:30 <yonet> ack bajones
19:14:51 <laford> bajones: switching layers should be a fairly lightweight operation
19:14:58 <laford> ... should take place within a frame
19:15:19 <laford> ... would there be a downside to just keeping 2 layers in memory and swapping for any given frame
19:15:34 <laford> ... in this case based on controller presence
19:15:50 <laford> ... though the layers are probably allocating texture memory
19:16:12 <laford> ... 1.5x the memory may be an issue on low end devices
19:16:30 <laford> cabanier: the problem is what do you populate the mono layer with
19:16:58 <laford> ... issues with webgl
19:17:19 <laford> bajones: we want 2 separate things. The format of the media stream and the presentation modality
19:17:34 <laford> ... doesn't seem terrible to toggle at runtime
19:17:46 <laford> cabanier: is there something more elegant than adding an attribute?
19:17:57 <laford> bajones: do we need / want the granularity to choose which eye to show
19:18:19 <laford> cabanier: not the ask. Just want the non-media stream content to not look weird
19:19:04 <laford> bajones: seems like a good compromise; not necessary for other layers
19:19:25 <yonet> agendum 3: https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1203
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19:21:34 <RafaelCintron_> q+
19:21:37 <alcooper> q+
19:21:44 <laford> cabanier: provide statistics to discover gpu / cpu headroom
19:21:51 <yonet> ack RafaelCintron_
19:22:01 <laford> RafaelCintron_: The closest we have is timing gpu operations in webgl
19:22:15 <laford> ... AAA games have settings to achieve perf or best visuals
19:22:29 <laford> ... or fine grained graphical feature control
19:22:53 <laford> cabanier: some have automatic detection, e.g. look at hardware or run frames and guess best settings
19:23:11 <laford> ... or database mapping system setup to settings
19:23:15 <laford> ... we don't want to go there though
19:23:18 <yonet> ack alcooper
19:23:28 <laford> alcooper: I've seen some chat on this one on the issue
19:23:42 <laford> ... Definitely something that we want to be careful exposing due to fingerprinting data it introduces
19:23:52 <laford> ... can probe system info by reading statistics
19:24:11 <laford> RafaelCintron_: webgl has timer query to time individual webgl operations
19:24:26 <laford> cabanier: can time how long animation loop and gl operations take
19:24:35 <laford> ... seems like you can already get what is being proposed in webgl
19:24:46 <laford> ... what is the timing attack surface here?
19:24:47 <bajones> q+
19:24:58 <yonet> ack bajones
19:25:11 <laford> bajones: Disjoint timer query and analogous webgpu functions are sufficient
19:25:19 <laford> ... don't cover system compositing time and browser overhead
19:25:28 <laford> ... would hope that is minimal though
19:25:40 <laford> ... even if so, what is the right way to report it?
19:26:08 <laford> ... The oculus dev tools have similar info, so perhaps a combination of existing web tools + system tools is sufficient
19:26:27 <laford> cabanier: developers then may develop for specific systems
19:27:12 <laford> bajones: the assumption would be that overall time spent by browser + system is within an OoM from each other then webgl timings should be analogous to the actual headroom +- ~10%
19:27:32 <laford> ... if we can come to a rough rule of thumb then webgl alone should be sufficient, otherwise we should take a closer look
19:28:40 <yonet> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WAZAmA7TGi_2QAR6o_jr8hOPM7ybzrKUt80tAajzyhg/edit?usp=sharing
19:32:04 <yonet> https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/immersive-web/calendar
19:32:28 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
19:32:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/02-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
19:32:32 <atsushi> rrsagent, make log public
19:33:14 <atsushi> rrsagent, make log public
19:33:24 <yonet> Thank you atsushi
19:33:50 <atsushi> meeting: Immersive-Web WG/CG call
19:34:03 <atsushi> s/agendum 2:/topic:/
19:34:08 <atsushi> s/agendum 3:/topic:/
19:34:32 <atsushi> i/cabanier: Two options to expose depth testing layers/topic: layers#135 Depth testing across layers requested by cabanier/
19:34:42 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
19:34:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/02-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi
19:35:48 <atsushi> s/chair yonet//
19:36:42 <atsushi> s|https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/issues/265|layers#265 A feature that toggle stereo on runtime. https://github.com/immersive-web/layers/issues/265
19:36:59 <atsushi> s|https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1203|webxr#1203 Provide statistics to help guide performance https://github.com/immersive-web/webxr/issues/1203
19:37:02 <atsushi> rrsagent, publish minutes
19:37:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/11/02-immersive-web-minutes.html atsushi