<LisaSeemanKest_> clear agenda
<Rain> scribe: Rain
<scribe> scribe: Rain
We went through a round of introductions
Lisa: asking if we would like to introduce with slides
Addison: I think we have an
understanding of the conversation that we are having, but
always interested in slides
... one of the things we've asked about are bigger examples of
the things we are talking about
Sharing the deck so that people can review anything they find interesting offline: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1QPcayVXGsck3Ez7M1vGpJ2EYHWb5iMUfoboLqcugMZk/edit#slide=id.p
Lisa: high level overview, we are
working on cognitive accessibility task force, we created the
content useable document
... Some of the information as been challenging to include
because we need more information as a recommendation. Great can
be the enemy of the good, so we wanted to get it out and
published knowing that there was more to come.
... We got some comments from the Internationalization review
that were fascinating and we thought we wanted to do, but
couldn't do for the first publication.
... That is what we were hoping to focus on today.
Lisa: everything we have in the document, we want to have backed up by research. This is important for us to have some kind of source.
<r12a> https://w3c.github.io/i18n-activity/reviews/#coga-usable
Lisa: Sometimes we will have information from the community that is well founded that we will include, but we prefer to back it up with literary review where possible.
<Fazio_> Our research results tend to be very western heavy
Lisa: so the first issue you raised that we were really interested in is the issue of clear language in international contexts. But this means something in different languages.
<LisaSeemanKest_> · Issue #248 -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest_] ‹Fazio_› Our research results tend to be very western heavy
Link to the issue: https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/248
Lisa: we have put this under high
priority to address as properly as we can. Now we are looking
for more help.
... how do we find out the different language
constraints?
... how do we recruit across different cultures to gather that
information?
<JcK> JcK present+
Richard: could COGA summarize the current status of the document?
Lisa: The document is https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/
... it has everything we knew, including personas, user needs,
what works, what doesn't work.
... This includes objectives, design guides, things to use and
avoid. One of the objectives is understandable content.
Richard: what I was really hoping
was to get clarity on that this is now a working group
note.
... My understanding is that you are writing version 2 of this
note?
Lisa: yes, we are working on an update.
Richard: when do you expect to publish?
Lisa: we think in just over a year.
Richard: will you stop at that point, or keep editing?
Lisa: we are hoping that future generations will be flexible enough and we won't need to keep it going.
Richard: raising concern that we never responded to the note, and we were unsure if you would reraise it.
Rain: raised that one of our hopes for this conversation today is to help with our communications.
<r12a> qq+
Lisa: Also noting that we are needing to improve our process.
<Zakim> r12a, you wanted to react to r12a
Addison: one of the things we are
trying to understand is the goal of the document. Trying to
gather all of the different cases across different languages
and how to find and accept different pieces of
information...
... As we see other things and considerations, whether you have
a way to incorporate those or have a plan to address those. Is
your goal to be very high level? Or specific?
Lisa: Our goal is that people
creating web content can do so in a way that works for people
with learning and cognitive disabilities. That is a broad
scope.
... That is why we decided to publish knowing that there were
topics that we hadn't done justice to. This is going to be an
ongoing discussion and evaluation.
... Like whether we want specific addons for different
countries or languages.
... what we try to do is set up subgroups.
... That subgroup can then carry on exploring this issue.
... We could do something similar here, and create a subgroup
to work with Internationalization.
... Between Arabic and Hebrew there are a lot of commonalities,
so maybe some aspects of that could be worked on together.
Addison: in some cases it could
be writing system specific.
... I think the concern is how to best work with you, and how
to best review the documents as they come out.
... How can Internationalization provide feedback early enough
so that you can look into it.
... How can COGA include notes.
David: Bringing up the challenges of the quirks and needs, appreciate some help. We want to work with you. This isn't just about languages but also about layout. Synergy between the groups is super important.
Richard: I think the way to get
through this is to have procedures to follow that remind you of
what needs to be done.
... What Addison is trying to suggest is that we reviewed your
document when it was too late to do something.
... So if you create your process in such a way so that early
on, there is opportunity to review and there is plenty of time
to make changes. That way we can have the discussions and time
to make changes.
... I think that what we are asking for is that you have a
process.
David: I think it would be even better if we could have some participation from Internationalization. So that you can be part of the process. If waiting until we are close to publish, that would be overload for us.
Addison: asking us to use their
issue tracker with a "Request to review"
... don't send us an email.
Richard: Are you aware of the
labels that the W3C uses? Specifically the i18n needs
resolution. This means we do not want you to publish until
these have been resolved.
... that would be an easy thing for you to check the github
repository.
... If it has an i18n tracker tag on it, that just means we are
watching it. Needs resolution does.
... Since this is a note, there is no formal process. But if
this were a recommendation you would have to fix them before
transitioning.
David: github is challenging for us.
Jennie: I hear that you are
asking to be involved in the process early and appreciate that.
This is one of the things COGA is also asking of others. This
helps us to plan forward and understand the timeline.
... But I also heard you say "use our issue tracker"
<r12a> qq+
Jennie: One of the things that we've been trying to raise is that the issue tracker may not be accessible to us. How should we proceed if that assignment is not accessible?
Richard: talking about a very
specific things. We have an issue tracker that we use to
organize our tracker. It is part of the process that W3C uses
as a horizontal issue.
... For us to do a review of a document, I'm outnumbered by all
the working groups and we can't keep track of things
otherwise.
Lisa: one of the things we did
before publishing was go through the issues. We thought this
was resolved for the moment because the comment above sounded
like you were happy.
... This kind of thing where a github issue, we are opening it,
we think it is closed, and then it reopens. We are very
unlikely to pick up on github notifications. If a new issue is
opened.
<Fazio_> Again, Github is a difficult system for COGA needs
Addison: I think when you go to publish, if you review your open issues, and if you aren't sure about closing it, then this would be helpful.
<Zakim> r12a, you wanted to react to Jennie
Richard: three things that might
help. 1. request review, 2. check for needs resolution issues.
These are things that should be done at the group level. Not
just the person who is assigned but also the facilitator. 3.
Given the nature of the group, I will offer that there is a
single page that describes the process and make a simpler
version that will describe how we can make this communication
more effective.
... Third: do you use the notifications system that is
available?
Lisa: yes. The notifications system does not work for us because it is challenging for us. Lots of subject lines, hard to tell what you've looked at.
Richard: I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. Because notifications will tell you every time there is a new comment.
Lisa: trying to explain that there is difficulty with this. We tried our best. We missed this, we get it, we can take it back and review again.
A resource to help other groups with working with COGA: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1UIQu4RqklIlFjEuDPh3bZgMaeqexsRW32ite37AOhoA/edit#slide=id.gf082ec77ba_0_21
Lisa: a definite to do on our
side is to work with WAI to figure out how to improve our
process.
... we will work on this challenge. We do need you to accept
that we have our challenges with managing github.
Richard: first of all, let's forget the problem with this particular issue. What we are trying to do is offer ways that we can help. So if you try and fix your process, please include us, we will try to help.
Addison: we are happy to adjust how we work to best meet your needs.
<Jennie> * Working together to improve the process would be wonderful.
Addison: We try to place comments as efficiently as we can. We are happy to have joint calls to resolve issues if those are more effective.
Lisa: if you are unhappy that we haven't responded to you, with a short direct subject line with what it is about, and that is much more likely to catch us.
Addison: the only time I will be unhappy is if you publish a document that has open issues against it.
Lisa: we now have two issues that
we very much want to address in the next version. This issue,
and the synergy where the needs may be the same between
internationalization and COGA
... This is another very interesting area.
Julie: suggest that in the case of the issue, that maybe in the future, to keep using your standard process with github, but when you change a label, send an email to Lisa and Rain, saying just so you know, we've changed the issue, can we have a conversation. This is an accomodation as a step to help the COGA team.
<LisaSeemanKest_> next item
Addison: needs resolution starts life that way. This doesn't change.
Richard: I think what we are hearing is that they are not use the notifier, so they need the additional accomodation.
Lisa: moving ahead to we have two
huge topics. We may not be able to address them all in the next
version. Maybe we should then have a link out to wiki pages
where work could be added.
... Other than this process issue, is there another way to move
forward with these interesting points? Understandability in
different languages and contexts, and synergy?
... Can we ask for your help?
... Do you have the resources to put out a call to people in
the international community to explore and share some of this
information with us?
... Or help us address these issues as well as we can?
Richard: we want to, but we are completely overloaded all the time.
<kirkwood> what are the opinions of internationlization and the topic of plain language?
<LisaSeemanKest_> scribe: julierawe
John: One thing that bumped up in intersection of cognitive and internalization is plain language. Is there anything you use on the topic of plain language and how that makes internationalization more efficient?
<kirkwood> academia.edu ?
Richard: You might want to try
academia.edu. I can send you an email. It is a repository of
acacemic papers.
... I looked at one of those papers about writing
simple-to-read text and then I was deluged with similar stuff
in Arabic and Hebrew. But I didn't have time to read
them.
... I'll see if I can find the link you need and send it to
you. They have a lot of information on that.
Lisa: We have that link and are
using it for mental health review. We can take that approach of
staffing a literary review.
... It seemed this might be an area that some of you had
expertise in.
... I think we have next steps. We invite you to put into that
comment thread or anywhere you like any actual information you
have, even if it's partial. We can then look it up and see what
research is behind it.
... Any concrete information and additional ideas is very
useful.
... We can keep that ongoing.
... Thanks everyone for your contributions.
John: Nice to meet all of you.
<Jennie> Thank you for the conversation!
David: Look forward to collaborating in the future.
Rain: Keep the minutes open.
Richard: The internationalization guys are going to move to our own channel now.
<Rain> scribe: Rain
<LisaSeemanKest_> TOPIC Silver
Lisa: we would like to check our process, make sure we are doing this well, we really appreciate the work that Silver is putting in in making a standard that is more flexible and inclusive.
Not scribing introductions
While we do introductions, I added an agenda slide to a deck that also has lots of information about COGA: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1vCW2dv1et4uw3UcQ4tqFjZlKsA_i1ZIsYfrmFPUPmxY/edit#slide=id.gfb49a7af56_0_8
<julierawe> Rain, I need access to that deck, thanks
Thanks to Julie for letting me know that the deck access needed to be opened up. I've made it available. Repeating the link: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1vCW2dv1et4uw3UcQ4tqFjZlKsA_i1ZIsYfrmFPUPmxY/edit#slide=id.gfb49a7af56_0_8
<LisaSeemanKest_> next item
<LisaSeemanKest_> next item
<LisaSeemanKest_> take up item 6
Shawn: A good starting point would be a timeline that we facilitators can piece together from the overall structure.
<Lauriat> Timeline: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yzR1H0SnNFRELGchb_BJr4Necsrj6xVjDF1n7Tc0kTc/edit#gid=0
<LisaSeemanKest_> agenda
Shawn: We brought this up with
the overall working group. Fair warning, this link goes to an
enormous spreadsheet. Rachael put this together as we were
trying to get an overall picture of what this looks like.
... one way that you can get a good overview is to ignore all
of the text that is in column A and zoom out to the overall
timeline to get to candidate recommendations in the middle of
2026.
... This is a long and somewhat intimidating timeline. We need
to figure out something better for getting through the
work.
... If you zoom in a little bit and focus on the milestones
that are bolded and do not have any entry for timelines. That
gives you a sense of the foundational work that we are doing
right now.
... some of that involves writing templates and methods.
... One of the questions I heard is how to work through those
templates.
... Row 12, happening now, is what are the test types, how are
they named.
... Even with these as an example, and something says "this
will be done this quarter," this means really only the first
incarnation that we can work through. The process will evolve
over time as we figure out better things we can be doing.
... Everything is living in this state.
... once we get to prototyping, we will move into foundational
work discussions. These will be discussions to solidify what
we've worked through. This will be happening over the next year
and a half.
... For example, test types will be around mid-2022 to solidify
which test types are in the first version of WCAG 3.
... We have a lot to figure out in terms of scoring and
conformings.
... right now, we are saying that for those writing guidance,
granular tests are okay to focus on. More kind of holistic
tests. We are still in the process of working out what those
might look like. This is tied to the conformance model and we
are in a prototyping phase.
Lisa: I have to say, a lot of
that, I need to look at in more detail.
... What is happening with the writing process?
... How long are you expecting? We originally talked about 3
months sprints per guidance?
Shawn: For the writing process,
this is something we are revisiting. On our schedule for
tomorrow is to go through the writing process to figure out how
to manage things so far.
... having it be in a more initial drafted state rather than
something good to go to candidate recommendation would be
good.
... We are trying to figure out how to manage maturity. This is
in flux in terms of managing those kinds of milestones.
Julie: wanted to ask Shawn. Excited to hear about the templates. If you can give specifics on how soon those templates will be ready to share?
Shawn: once we've recorded feedback that we've gotten, we will share them. It is on the timeline for this quarter.
Lisa: thinking of changing this agenda slightly of going into our document and how we were thinking of mapping it to making templates.
Lisa: after we look at how we are thinking of mapping, then we will move to the questions on testing that we have.
Lisa is sharing screen, showing Content usable and the drafts we are working on.
<Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/
<Fazio_> The Functional Needs Group did a good job translating our objectives into functional outcomes
Lisa: Content usable starts with
objectives. The goals. Then in User stories we have stories.
Patterns has practical guidance, then we also include testing
and personas.
... Thinking in a way that each user story could be a method,
as these are functional outcomes.
... Then we can look at the design guide and use these as the
"how to do"
<Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to ask about the inversion of the user story as the outcome and potentially the way to build up the tests
Shawn: Your expansion going to
the design guide helps as well.
... You mentioned something about the inversion of the user
story to create that outcome. I think that very much makes
sense.
... Especially with the design guide there. That will help to
build up these tests in order to validate that the outcome is
met.
... Starting with the end point and being able to build.
Example: are there headings on the page? Then is the heading
helping person know what the content is? and build from
there.
Lisa: We also have a "how it
helps." But we've separated what to do and more details to try
to not overwhelm people.
... The basic what to do makes sense for someone doing
something simple, but then a more sophisticated content
provider may want to be able to do even mroe.
... We've put the annoying details under more details. For the
purpose of Silver and technical description, we've pulled them
back in. This is what the Silver audience will be
expecting.
... this is where we start to move into testing.
... Under "examples". We've put in each one a "use" and "avoid"
for good patterns and things that you need to avoid.
... That forms a testable statement.
... so we thought that this could map to the testing section.
Want to check if this also fits well.
... we also have a section on testing. We have some test
questions for each of the objectives, but the granularity may
be a bit off here.
<Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to point to images example method that has description, examples, and tests: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2020/methods/informative-images/
Shawn: pointing to an example
method that we have drafted up, which has a punch of parallels
for what Lisa was describing.
... Introduction and description tab, similar to what we are
describing with how it helps and more details.
... We do have examples but tend to stick to positive examples
only, not negatives.
... This is because some of the research we did early on for
Silver brought up some confusion of negative examples of things
to avoid. People thought that if they avoided those things,
they would pass, which is not necessarily true.
... We have the tests tab, with two major sections.
... The first is atomic tests. Example: for an image, here is
how to check if it has appropriate alternative text.
<kirkwood> very interesting support for positive samples only. good point
Shawn: The second are holistic
tests. This is something we are still working on, but would be
about how the incorrectness is trying to impact how the user is
trying to do something.
... Atomic, check for page headings. If there are page
headings, look at the context of the headings, and here is how
to describe how well the heading describes the purpose.
... You may have a test result that instead of just true or
false, may indicate how well or poorly something works.
... You may have a section that describes how well something
does.
<kirkwood> concise headings is very good point
Julie: This is helpful to be
looking at this example. Noticed the last tab is resources.
Looks like How To resources. Wanted to ask about: as we are
putting together our draft, do we need to be providing our
research base?
... What gives us the idea that this is effective?
Shawn: Absolutely, please do include these.
Julie: where will the research base go?
Shawn: all of the research will
be internally used. At least some, if not all, would make sense
to also include on the resources tab in the guideline.
... One of the requirements that we have of WCAG 3 is to be
more data driven and research based.
<Lauriat> WCAG 3 Requirements, with Design Principles as well (which mentions data-based decisions and research basis of work): https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0-requirements/
Lisa: Related point for when we
are doing the mapping. We have a page of a lot of items that
were made into proposals.
... While writing the new methods, because in the work we did
for WCAG 2 we were asked for testability and procedures. Some
of these didn't make it to discussion, so may still need
review. Some did.
... These techniques documents from our research predated
content usable.
... We made content useable as a way of getting this
information out.
The link that Lisa is showing: https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/extension/status.html
Julie: Do you recommend that we
as the Clear Language subgroup try to get one method ready
similar to informative images?
... And then who would we share it with to see if this is the
right track to see if we should build the other methods using
the same approach?
Shawn: yes, that would be useful.
You can send to Shawn and Jeanne, or overall silver email
list.
... Can also suggest bringing it to the group for a discussion,
which can be more helpful.
<Lauriat> Silver mailing list: public-silver@w3.org
Lisa: we also had a question
about testable statements: do you prefer one long testable
statement, or that each statement is granular?
... For example, help user undo mistakes. When we write the
test for this: you may have back, or undo. Do you want one long
statement such as make sure this series of things does or
doesn't happen, or each stage separate?
Shawn: think that a better approach is to start separate.
<Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to speak to levels of maturity in bringing things to the Silver group vs. getting things into drafts
Rain: asked about how to bring things to the silver group given our concerns about the types of pushback and misunderstandings we've received in the past.
Shawn: encourage to bring things
early and often so that it can be iterated.
... Encourage to bring things that still have open questions,
because then we can identify people who can start answering
those questions.
... We don't have an expectation that anything will be buttoned
up in order to actually test them out.
... We need to be able to test these out and run tests to
validate. Are these implementable? Do they make sense in a
regulatory environment?
... Until we validate, we are not going to have everything be
perfect.
... For bringing things to the silver group, please have a
lower bar that you are meeting.
... This way, you aren't working on something for an extended
period of time only to find out that something isn't
working.
... Good recruiting opportunity.
... Able to identify areas we can punt for later.
... and how do we get something to the point where it is
packaged and ready to bring to the overall group, that this
will help.
Lisa: We are aware of the W3C
process as well, but as we are talking about things within our
little subgroup and it going to the wide world, we have been so
knocked down. It gets narrowed and narrowed in scope until it's
lost a lot of meaning.
... I think having a process in place now, with the first ones,
as we go out and see how that reacts, and tweaking that process
of how we resolve things might be as important as any other
piece.
... Won't be seen by anyone, but having agreed that user
requirements must be in, but testable things are in a separate
section. Figuring out the fuzzy testable stuff together that
may not get through because of too many exceptions or
something.
... noting ahead of time that there are probably going to be
areas where people will make a strong effort, with more
resources than us, to remove some of what we hope to get
in.
... It can get depressing if it goes that way, so we may want
to think ahead of time what is a safe way of doing this.
... Knowing that everyone is trying their best.
Shawn: I hear you on that one.
Honestly, that's one of the big things that we bring up as a
way of validating whether a conformance model can work.
... Does this result in this kind of guidance being shuffled to
the back? If so, that's not going to work for us.
Lisa: We really are grateful and impressed with the strides being taken.
<Ryladog> Sorry I have to drop. Thank you all!
<Jennie> * Apologies - have to drop. Thanks for the conversation.
<LisaSeemanKest_> https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-coga-minutes.html
This is scribe.perl Revision VERSION of 2020-12-31 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Default Present: JustineP, Jemma, ], kirkwood, FredrikFischer, Fazio, janina, Matthew_Atkinson, scott_h, Jennie, jasonjgw, stevelee, Roy, julierawe, Rain, FredrikFischer_, JF, becky, Jennie_, krisannekinney, sharon, Lionel_Wolberger, LisaSeemanKest_, addison, Fazio_, Wilco, xfq, atsushi, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Lauriat, julierawe_ Present: JustineP, Jemma, ], kirkwood, FredrikFischer, Fazio, janina, Matthew_Atkinson, scott_h, Jennie, jasonjgw, stevelee, Roy, julierawe, Rain, FredrikFischer_, JF, becky, Jennie_, krisannekinney, sharon, Lionel_Wolberger, LisaSeemanKest_, addison, Fazio_, Wilco, xfq, atsushi, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Lauriat, julierawe_ Found Scribe: Rain Inferring ScribeNick: Rain Found Scribe: Rain Inferring ScribeNick: Rain Found Scribe: julierawe Inferring ScribeNick: julierawe Found Scribe: Rain Inferring ScribeNick: Rain Scribes: Rain, julierawe ScribeNicks: Rain, julierawe Found Date: 28 Oct 2021 People with action items: WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]