00:00:29 dsr has joined #wot 01:01:23 dsr has joined #wot 02:02:12 dsr has joined #wot 03:02:49 dsr has joined #wot 03:33:34 kaz has joined #wot 04:03:36 dsr has joined #wot 04:58:34 kaz has joined #wot 04:59:03 kaz has joined #wot 05:04:30 dsr has joined #wot 06:00:23 dsr has joined #wot 07:03:21 zkis_ has joined #wot 08:55:46 stevelee has joined #wot 09:21:50 pchampin has joined #wot 11:36:41 zkis_ has joined #wot 11:52:49 rrsagent, bye 11:52:49 I see no action items 11:52:55 RRSAgent has joined #wot 11:52:55 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-wot-irc 11:53:07 meeting: WoT vF2F in October - Day 4 11:53:13 present+ Kaz_Ashimura 11:57:04 rrsagent, make log public 11:57:11 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:57:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 11:58:13 chair: Sebastian, McCool 11:58:36 takio has joined #wot 11:59:05 McCool has joined #wot 11:59:53 Tomoaki_MIzushima has joined #wot 12:00:11 present+ Michael_McCool, Takio_Yamaoka 12:00:37 present+ Peter_Bruhn_Andersen 12:01:03 -> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20170801/ W3C Patent Policy 12:01:24 present+ Michael_Lagally 12:01:35 present+ Kunihiko_Toumura 12:01:57 ktoumura has joined #wot 12:03:05 Ege has joined #wot 12:03:12 present+ Fady_Salama 12:03:18 mlagally has joined #wot 12:03:25 present+ Ege_Korkan 12:03:27 fady has joined #wot 12:03:32 present+ Ari_Keranen 12:03:39 dape has joined #wot 12:03:42 present+ Daniel_Peintner 12:03:43 Fady_ has joined #wot 12:03:53 zakim, who is on the call? 12:03:53 Present: Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_McCool, Takio_Yamaoka, Peter_Bruhn_Andersen, Michael_Lagally, Kunihiko_Toumura, Fady_Salama, Ege_Korkan, Ari_Keranen, Daniel_Peintner 12:04:12 present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima 12:04:20 present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch 12:04:32 sebastian has joined #wot 12:04:51 present+ Albrecht_Schwarz 12:05:33 present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi 12:06:19 topic: Agenda 12:07:37 -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting,_October_2021#Oct_27 Oct-27 12:07:45 @@@Sebastian's slides 12:08:35 s|@@@Sebastian's slides|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/PRESENTATIONS/2021-10-online-f2f/2021-10-27-WoT-F2F-Opening-Kaebisch.pdf Sebastian's slides| 12:09:10 sk: scribe: Sebastian and @@@ 12:09:14 present+ Michael_Koster 12:09:21 me, daniel, fady took minutes 12:09:28 s/@@@/Cristiano/ 12:09:33 mjk has joined #wot 12:10:10 sk: Architeture, Profile, (break), Scripting API, Marketing and Wrap-up 12:10:15 ... any guest today? 12:10:32 as: Albrecht Schwarz 12:10:43 -> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20170801/ W3C Patent Policy 12:10:45 q+ 12:11:40 sk: please be aware of the W3C Patent Policy 12:12:00 ... note that everything will be published publicly 12:12:18 ... so confidential information should not be shared during this call 12:12:25 as: agree 12:13:04 ack k 12:13:09 sk: next 12:13:17 ... we're using IRC for taking notes 12:13:43 ... also use q+ / q- to manage the speaker queue 12:13:55 q+ ka 12:13:58 q- ka 12:14:10 ... resources 12:14:34 ... wiki page here https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting,_October_2021 12:14:52 ... presentations available at https://github.com/w3c/wot/tree/main/PRESENTATIONS/2021-10-online-f2f 12:14:55 q? 12:15:10 ... and then would like Lagally to take over the moderator role 12:15:22 scribenick: sebastian 12:15:35 topic: Architecture and Profiles 12:16:05 PeterAndersen has joined #wot 12:16:30 @@@ Lagally's slides 12:16:53 present+ Ryuichi_Matsukura, Zoltan_Kis 12:17:45 ML: shows the agenda for architecture and profile 12:18:34 ... architecture is responsible for the abstract architecture and interoperabiity profiles for WoT 12:18:59 ... thanks to the contributors of the Arch and Profile document 12:20:35 ... Arch specifies the abstract architecture, terminology and building blocks of WoT 12:21:05 present+ Takashi_Minamii 12:21:22 ryuichii has joined #wot 12:21:23 ... 12:21:35 tm has joined #wot 12:21:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:21:44 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:22:20 ... 12:22:40 i/Sebastian and Cristiano/scribenick: kaz/ 12:22:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:22:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:22:57 (it occurs to me that if these are just ed drafts, we need to have a FPWD by Jan 13!) 12:23:02 ML: lets go to the Arch. document 12:23:23 ... currently working on terminology alignment 12:24:45 ... some specifications have their own terminology section, need to align and move common definitions to architecture 12:24:55 q+ 12:25:07 sorry for skipping the queue sebastian 12:25:17 no problem 12:25:32 q+ 12:25:35 ack s 12:25:39 q+ 12:25:49 sk: we had similar discussion before 12:26:28 ... we made the terminology section informative 12:26:36 q+ 12:26:40 q- 12:26:41 qq+ 12:27:15 I remember that PHL recommended to have terminology non-normative, however, I cannot remember what was the reason 12:27:51 q? 12:27:56 ack k 12:27:56 kaz, you wanted to react to sebastian 12:28:16 Kaz: Terminology section have no nomative assertions. Personally I do not see the motivation to make it normative 12:28:31 q? 12:28:33 ack e 12:28:53 qq+ 12:29:39 (I plan to mention the schedule constraint; we need to do all FPWD's by Nov 25 to hit CR by March 17) 12:29:58 ack k 12:29:58 kaz, you wanted to react to Ege 12:30:25 ack m 12:30:26 Ege: If the termonology section is normative, it does not prevent disalignment. 12:31:27 ML: thats right 12:31:38 MM: I do not have a hard opionen of that. 12:31:45 i/I do not/kaz: yeah, so from my viewpoint, what is important is not whether the terminology is normative or not, but the alignment itself/ 12:31:51 q? 12:32:03 dezell has joined #wot 12:32:14 present+ David_Ezell 12:32:18 (never mind, it seems both Arch and Profiles have had FPWDs already) 12:32:23 ML: another work is on protocol bindings 12:33:05 present+ Jennifer_Strickland 12:33:06 ... introduction section needs an update 12:33:52 ... there also some places with editorial notes that announce additional content 12:34:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:34:16 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:34:22 ML: next steps would to work on implementation report, ... 12:34:39 s/would/would be/ 12:35:24 ML: regarding publication schedule it is planned to dreeze the features Jan 31, 2022 12:35:36 s/dreeze/freeze 12:35:37 present+ Tomoya_Asai 12:35:55 ... we expect to have the charter extension 12:35:57 q? 12:36:12 MK: thats about the architecture TF 12:36:33 s/MK:/ML:/ 12:37:01 q? 12:37:06 kaz thanks 12:37:12 q+ 12:37:28 ack m 12:38:04 q? 12:38:15 MM: we should focus on Profile 12:38:49 ML: 12:39:11 https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues 12:40:29 q+ 12:40:36 ML: we need to take care on accessibility 12:40:46 its important when it comes to TAG review 12:41:00 MM: we should be also check internationalization 12:41:20 s/be/ 12:42:15 ML: I will create a issue that take care of it 12:42:44 -> https://www.w3.org/Guide/documentreview/ How to do Wide Review 12:43:20 Kaz: there is a guideline about the document review. We should follow it 12:43:50 q? 12:43:52 ack k 12:44:58 ML: 12:45:31 topic: WoT Profile 12:45:45 ML: what is a WoT Profile? 12:46:10 ... normative subset of WoT TD with a normative binding 12:47:39 ... 12:48:07 q+ 12:49:08 s/topic: Architecture and Profiles/topic: Architecture/ 12:49:17 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:49:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 12:49:36 just for clearification: profile do not develop specific binding like http, it simple reuse existing definition 12:49:51 s/definition/definitions 12:50:20 ML: 12:54:11 q+ 12:54:12 ... important use case is the "out of the box interoperability" use case 12:54:18 ack s 12:54:19 ack e 12:54:39 q+ 12:54:40 q+ 12:55:36 Ege: there is a problem with the "out of the box interoperability", even http is not interoperability since everyone can use in own style 12:55:51 s/use/use it 12:56:01 s/not interoperability/not interoperable/ 12:57:17 q? 12:58:48 q+ 12:58:48 ack m 12:59:39 q- 13:00:10 present+ Leigh_Anne_Mazure 13:00:16 ack e 13:01:49 Kaz: W3C does not provide a certification for interoperability. 13:03:27 s/interoperability./interoperability, but we can and should explain what is expected for WoT interoperability./ 13:03:36 ... we can provide a minimum set of requriments 13:03:40 q? 13:03:47 ack k 13:03:53 bkardell_ has joined #wot 13:04:59 s/requirements/requirements. Also from my viewpoint, what kind of vocabulary to be used for what kind of industry area is another important point for interoperability./ 13:05:11 present+ Riaz_Aimandi 13:05:47 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:05:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:06:01 ML: There are some core requirements such as for data model and protocol binding 13:06:32 s/requriments/requirements. Also from my viewpoint, what kind of vocabulary to be used for what kind of industry area is another important point for interoperability./ 13:06:33 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:06:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:09:05 q+ 13:09:45 ack s 13:10:50 there is not a 'common' data model 13:11:08 ML: right, I will change this to 'restricted' 13:11:26 q+ 13:12:25 ML: currently there is work on the baseline for HTTP binding, identifying constraints and rules on the data model 13:12:45 ... inambiguous interaction semantics 13:12:53 ... constraints on payload formats 13:13:10 .. protocol binding semantics 13:13:27 ... best practice security requirements 13:13:33 ... compliance 13:15:37 https://github.com/w3c/wot-security-best-practices 13:16:07 general guidelines and considerations are here: https://github.com/w3c/wot-security 13:16:26 ML: there are open issues in the data model sections like about the data model constraints 13:16:44 my suggestion is to lean heavily on the security-best-practices doc, which is currently being updated 13:17:15 but even so we will have to define at least two contexts, because of the annoying situation with TLS on LANs 13:17:36 q? 13:17:46 ack m 13:20:01 ML: regarding eventing model there is a 'Push' proposal 13:20:37 q+ 13:20:42 q+ 13:21:30 ack s 13:21:33 ack e 13:21:38 q+ 13:21:56 q+ 13:22:17 ack e 13:23:08 present+ Philipp_Blum 13:23:41 stevelee has joined #wot 13:24:24 ML: Webhooks are used in many solutions like in github, paypal, atlassian and wordpress 13:24:39 q+ 13:26:04 Ege: we have no imlementations of webhooks in the testfest so far 13:26:48 ... we should also check what is implemented in OpenHub as example 13:27:28 ML: there is the chance to have this in the Oracle binding 13:27:44 Daniel: I think, this is not the case. But Im not 100% sure 13:28:18 ack k 13:29:09 ack m 13:29:37 Kaz: Im agree with Ege. We should involve ECHONET, NHK, Netzo etc. in the discussion and ask them for opinion 13:30:07 s/Im agree with Ege/I partly agree with Ege's points/ 13:30:45 s/involve/ask WoT implementers about their approaches, e.g., / 13:31:08 s/Netzo etc./Takenaka and Netzo./ 13:31:33 q+ 13:31:37 s/ in the discussion and ask them for opinion// 13:31:40 q? 13:32:04 ML: introduces Cloud Events 13:32:41 ... is a specification for describing event data in common way 13:32:43 q+ 13:33:05 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:33:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:34:29 MM: Im wondering if this implementable for the profile on time? 13:34:40 q+ to suggest we concentrate on the current features 13:34:42 q? 13:34:44 ML: for Oracle it would be important 13:35:05 q+ 13:35:13 ack mc 13:36:51 q+ 13:37:00 q- 13:38:56 sk: want to ask about the Cloud Events 13:39:09 ... is that a standard or de facto? 13:39:21 ml: pretty small specification 13:39:23 @@@link 13:39:44 https://cloudevents.io/ 13:39:58 pb: it's run by the Linux Foundation 13:40:02 (cloudevents is typical of "cloud" standards; someone publishes something, but is there an SDO? Not necessarily...) 13:40:19 ask 13:40:22 s/ask// 13:40:23 ack s 13:40:34 sk: any experience? 13:40:36 (but if enough people use it... it's a "standard") 13:40:45 ml: my colleague is working 13:40:56 qq+ ege 13:40:59 ack ege 13:40:59 ege, you wanted to react to sebastian 13:41:19 ml: we have to work on the detail separately 13:41:30 ack k 13:41:30 kaz, you wanted to suggest we concentrate on the current features 13:43:01 Kaz: I'm wondering of the next step of the profile based on the provided MM schedule plans. I think it make sense to consider this for the next version 13:44:05 s/version/version. A possibility is our going for Living Standards instead of RECs so that we can add any necessary features whenever we want but that would be a bigger question./ 13:44:13 q? 13:44:17 ML: we should plan this in the 1.0 release 13:45:30 s/1.0/current/ 13:45:54 citrullin has joined #wot 13:45:57 q+ 13:46:19 s/next version/next version. We can start initial survey in parallel, though./ 13:46:23 q? 13:46:25 ack d 13:46:38 Daniel: i think its quite late for considering webhook and cloud events 13:46:40 q? 13:47:08 ... I like to understand what is the consequences when we put those in? 13:47:38 MM: we plan to have tests fest Mid February 13:47:59 s/tests fest/testfest 13:48:25 q? 13:48:35 ack cit 13:48:46 q+ 13:48:56 q+ 13:49:12 Philipp: we had a simple discussion with SenML 13:49:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:49:27 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:49:27 .. there was many discussion about this like the structure 13:49:36 s/many/much/ 13:49:58 s/this like the/this kind of/ 13:50:24 i/want to ask/scribenick: kaz/ 13:50:35 i/I'm wondering of/scribenick: sebastian/ 13:50:38 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:50:38 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:50:39 q? 13:50:45 qq+ Ege 13:50:48 ack ege 13:50:48 Ege, you wanted to react to citrullin 13:51:27 ack s 13:51:58 sk: our discussion on SenML was mainly about the payload structure 13:52:08 (time check...) 13:52:11 pb: how to integrate it with TD 13:52:49 q? 13:53:08 ack e 13:53:38 ah sorry I remember now what I wanted to really ask 13:53:38 q+ 13:54:30 ML: the next steps are the push mechanism, rework data mode, implementation report, compliance section, authentication and securiry, uncioorate PlufFest findings 13:54:44 s/mode/model 13:55:26 s/NHK,/NHK, the other Plugfest participants, / 13:55:30 ML: future work will cover other protocols like MQTT, ECHONET Lite, OPC-UA 13:55:33 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:55:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:55:36 q? 13:55:44 s/@@@link// 13:55:58 qq+ McCool 13:55:58 ... provide requirements for TD 2.0 13:56:03 ack M 13:56:03 McCool, you wanted to react to Ege 13:56:28 i/our discussion on SenML/scribenick: kaz/ 13:56:37 ML: Publication schedule is to freeze Jan 31, 2022 13:56:38 i/the next steps are/scribenick: sebastian/ 13:56:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:56:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 13:57:03 ack e 14:00:03 cris has joined #wot 14:00:08 [10-min break; then Scripting API (35mins) and Marketing] 14:00:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:00:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-wot-minutes.html kaz 14:03:10 cloudevents is from cloud native foundation instead of linux foundation right? @citrullin? 14:06:23 zkis has joined #wot 14:11:35 topic: Scripting API 14:12:10 dape shows Scripting API slides 14:12:33 dape: new options for consumer and exposer applications 14:12:43 ... action state control 14:12:45 ... discovery 14:12:50 present+ CAabye 14:12:56 ... current node-wot status 14:13:13 subtopic: Consume and Expose options 14:13:58 dape: pick one particular security scheme or protocol 14:14:41 ... currently there's an interaction level option object to deal with particular binding. 14:15:03 ... consume options will help with this task 14:15:24 ... is a non-breaking change 14:16:06 ... similarly for the exposed side 14:16:25 ... node-wot offer a lot of different protocol bindings 14:16:26 present- CAabye 14:16:33 present+ Christian_Aabye 14:16:51 ... there's no practical way to configure the exposing algorithm 14:17:04 ... like specify what is going to be exposed. 14:17:42 ... but you need also a way to know is supported. In other words, enumerate runtime capabilites 14:17:56 subtopic: Action state and control 14:18:26 dape: there're some new proposal about how actions should behave in the WoT world 14:18:52 ... we are planning to introduce new APIs to control Actions status 14:19:17 ... we are thinking about a Control object to manipulate an Action State 14:19:37 ... it's a breaking change 14:20:03 ... but we need the discussion to settle in other spec (TD and Profile) 14:20:22 ... there's no way to properly handle action queue 14:21:02 ... we need to understand the security model for Action states 14:21:35 subtopic: Discovery 14:21:49 dape: we are trying to cover also the discovery spec 14:22:10 ... we are waiting for a stable discovery document 14:22:24 ... we can alredy support basic discovery spec 14:22:44 ... however for scripts is beneficial to discover things easier 14:23:09 mc: regarding this we don't have time to push new features in Discovery 14:23:19 q? 14:23:24 q+ McCool 14:23:24 ... we can add this to the next charter 14:23:26 ack m 14:24:05 ... it all nails down to which introduction mechanism you want to support in Scripting API 14:24:06 q+ 14:24:12 qq+ Zoltan 14:24:12 zoltan: the names are just examples 14:24:16 ack z 14:24:16 Zoltan, you wanted to react to McCool 14:25:16 dape: how to solve nearby? 14:25:36 mc: bluetooth beacon introduction would work 14:26:13 dape: we are still considering how to split the two discovery phases 14:26:23 mc: I would propose just second phase 14:26:42 dape: the issue here is that we still need introduction mechanism 14:26:49