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20:53:34 <marcosc> Meeting: WebApps WG - General meeting
20:53:41 <marcosc> Chair: Marcos Cáceres and Léonie Watson
20:54:10 <marcosc> marcosc has changed the topic to: WebAppsWG General Meeting - Agenda https://github.com/w3c/webappswg/wiki/TPAC-2021#agenda---general-meeting
20:54:42 <marcosc> marcosc has changed the topic to: WebAppsWG General Meeting - Agenda https://github.com/w3c/webappswg/wiki/TPAC-2021#agenda---general-webapps-meeting
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21:02:06 <zcorpan> present+
21:02:57 <marcosc> present+
21:03:00 <mustaq> present+
21:03:04 <jsbell> present+
21:03:10 <Mek> present+
21:03:41 <garykac_> present+
21:03:43 <xiaoqian> present+
21:04:04 <tink> present+ Léonie (tink)
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21:05:30 <howard_edwards> present+
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21:05:38 <msw> present+
21:05:45 <NotWoods> present+ Tiger Oakes
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21:06:05 <asuth> present+ Andrew Sutherland
21:06:10 <marcosc> Topic: Welcome + introductions
21:07:44 <emilio> present+
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21:12:43 <marcosc> Topic: Agenda bashing
21:15:21 <marcosc> Topic: New Work
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21:16:09 <marcosc> MC: new charter https://w3c.github.io/webappswg/charter/draft-charter-2021.html
21:16:23 <marcosc> MC: Web Locks API
21:16:42 <marcosc> MC: Contact Picker API
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21:17:41 <marcosc> MC: User-Agent Client Hints and Haptics
21:18:36 <marcosc> Topic: Status updates on each specs
21:18:49 <marcosc> sub-topic: UI Events
21:19:04 <marcosc>  [#308](https://github.com/w3c/uievents/issues/308) | [#31](https://github.com/w3c/uievents-code/issues/31) | [#54](https://github.com/w3c/uievents-key/issues/#54)
21:21:04 <marcosc> GK: 21 year old spec... the spec has a very long legacy...there is main spec, but we extracted code and key into their own spec. Key and Code spec are more or less done. I've updated the implementation report. There are two independent implementations each mandatory requirements.
21:23:07 <marcosc> GK: For the core UI spec, the spec was written in a fairly casual style... we need to rewrite it in an algorithmic style. There are a lot of specs depending on this spec (e.g., pointer spec). I've been talking to the editor of pointerlock, and seeing how we can bridge the two. I'm working on the algorithmic draft.
21:23:48 <marcosc> MC: there is a document available?
21:23:58 <marcosc> GK: I'll get a link for it... it's linked from the README
21:24:29 <marcosc> Sub-topic: Pointerlock
21:24:39 <mustaq> https://github.com/w3c/pointerlock/issues/75
21:25:50 <garykac_> Link to UIEvents algorithmic rewrite doc : https://w3c.github.io/uievents/event-algo.html
21:27:38 <garykac_> UIEvents code impl report: https://w3c.github.io/uievents-code/impl-report.html
21:27:43 <marcosc> MA: since last meeting we made one normative change: x, y coordinate from long to a double. This helps with CSS integration. We made some additional editorial changes. We have two pull requests open around user activation. And another for unaccelerated movements.
21:27:45 <garykac_> UIEvents key impl report: https://w3c.github.io/uievents-key/impl-report.html
21:28:49 <mattreynolds> https://github.com/w3c/pointerlock/pull/49
21:28:53 <marcosc> MR: We need more buying from other browser vendors. We believe have good solutions for MacOS, but looking at how we can support this on Linux.
21:29:02 <marcosc> MR: In Chrome ^^
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21:29:32 <jensimmons> present+
21:29:43 <marcosc> Sub-Topic: Intersection Observer
21:29:53 <marcosc> See: https://github.com/w3c/IntersectionObserver/issues/479
21:30:57 <marcosc> SZ: The spec is nearly CR ready. But there are still some outstanding interop issues.
21:31:09 <zcorpan> https://github.com/w3c/IntersectionObserver/issues/95
21:31:35 <szager> Issue #95 to be decided in favor of visual viewport, barring objections.
21:31:50 <marcosc> IMPORTANT^^^^
21:32:21 <zcorpan> https://github.com/w3c/IntersectionObserver/pull/386
21:32:44 <zcorpan> https://github.com/w3c/IntersectionObserver/issues/432
21:32:56 <marcosc> seeking input on: Define content clip (386)
21:33:21 <marcosc> SZ: and "isIntersecting definition doesn't match browsers when thresholds are involved" 432
21:33:48 <marcosc> Emilio: where do implementations differ?
21:34:13 <marcosc> SZ: I'm not sure if there is an interop issue in the wild... but the spec is vague.
21:34:34 <marcosc> Emilio: So it might be a matter of doing a spec cleanup
21:35:07 <marcosc> SZ: I think there might be hidden issues, so just want to make sure we get this right. There are some cases might cause issues in the wild.
21:35:21 <marcosc> SZ: If we could close those three issues, we could get it to CR
21:36:56 <marcosc> SZ: There is also V2 - it covers eclusion [sic], for security reasons ... it's used in about 4% of page loads. Apple does consider this high on their priority list, but is willing to accept patches.
21:38:11 <marcosc> Emilio: I could try make a case in Mozilla
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21:40:14 <marcosc> smfr: I implemented everything except the device pixel box
21:40:22 <aarongu> present+
21:41:00 <marcosc> sz: I didnt' know that you have implemented that. The spec does provide some wiggle room.
21:41:38 <marcosc> emilio: we've also fixed up the box types in Firefox, so we are in the same state as Webkit.
21:42:59 <marcosc> ZS: I wonder if folks would be willing to implement the delay for intersection observer, which can help with battery
21:43:12 <marcosc> Emilio: I wonder if we can move that to the V1 spec?
21:43:27 <marcosc> SZ: I'll file an issue
21:43:30 <emilio> https://w3c.github.io/IntersectionObserver/v2/
21:44:38 <marcosc> ZS: it might be good to show the diff between 1 and 2
21:44:42 <szager> https://szager-chromium.github.io/IntersectionObserver/
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21:45:14 <szager> https://szager-chromium.github.io/IntersectionObserver/#dom-intersectionobserver-delay
21:45:37 <marcosc> SZ: the delay parameter we were talking about ^^
21:45:55 <marcosc> smfr: are there web platform tests?
21:46:16 <marcosc> sz: I think there are, I need to check.
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21:47:08 <marcosc> sub-topic: Web App Manifest Application Info
21:47:09 <marcosc> https://github.com/w3c/manifest-app-info/issues/39
21:47:26 <szager> WPT for IntersectionObserver 'delay' feature: https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/blob/master/intersection-observer/v2/delay-test.html
21:49:04 <marcosc> ag: there is some debate about making this this a spec to the REC track. Parts of this spec could/has be implemented in browsers (e.g., rich install dialogs). There is some additions being made, like "policies".
21:49:22 <aarongu> Manifest App Info proposals: installation-related client Hints https://github.com/w3c/manifest-app-info/pull/32
21:49:37 <aarongu> Policies in manifest: https://github.com/w3c/manifest-app-info/pull/46
21:49:48 <aarongu> Publisher in manifest: https://github.com/w3c/manifest-app-info/pull/47
21:50:00 <marcosc> Sub-topic: Gamepad
21:50:23 <marcosc> https://github.com/w3c/gamepad/issues/154
21:52:47 <marcosc> MR: big rewrite, modernized the spec to be algorithmic. We also made gamepad objects live. We are looking at adding an event model that satisfy all use cases, specially for cloud gaming clients. We are also looking how we might get raw and events that are tied to requestAnimationFrame().
21:53:01 <mattreynolds> https://github.com/w3c/gamepad/pull/151
21:54:32 <marcosc> MC: we added permission-policy "gamepad" with allowed "self", shipped in Firefox. But turned out to be not super web compatible. So we might switch it to "all".
21:56:11 <marcosc> RG: to what degree does do we tolerate permission policy change? having the policy is better than not having one. But we should have some kind of guidance to help with these issues.
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21:57:49 <marcosc> MC: we should take this up with the TAG for sure.
21:58:05 <marcosc> Topic: Image Resource
21:58:12 <marcosc> https://github.com/w3c/image-resource/issues/42
22:00:00 <marcosc> AG: there doesn't seem to be any blockers for it. It's used throughout the web manifest spec. We talked about other specs potentially using this also (e.g., web payments).
22:00:28 <marcosc> sub-topic: Push API
22:00:43 <marcosc> https://github.com/w3c/push-api/issues/336
22:01:24 <marcosc> https://github.com/w3c/push-api/issues/334#issuecomment-948288062
22:03:28 <marcosc> MC: triaged the issues. Few interop issues on the Firefox side. We don't a push server, so some things are hard to test. Overall, it's in pretty good shape tho.
22:03:51 <marcosc> MC: We've done more integration with the Permissions spec
22:04:12 <marcosc> Sub-topic: Screen Orientation
22:04:19 <marcosc> https://github.com/w3c/screen-orientation/issues/204
22:07:31 <marcosc> MC: the outstanding issues are mostly editorial. We have interop on Chrome and Firefox. It's nearly done... but left wondering if maybe we could move this to the Fullscreen API.
22:07:48 <marcosc> Sub-topic: Web Share
22:08:05 <marcosc> https://github.com/w3c/web-share/issues/212
22:12:13 <marcosc> MC: in a good state for CR. There some small issues to take care of around particular URL types to share. Good interop all around.
22:12:24 <marcosc> Sub-topic: IndexedDB
22:13:44 <jsbell> https://w3c.github.io/IndexedDB/#revision-history
22:13:51 <jsbell> https://github.com/w3c/indexeddb/issues/364
22:13:56 <marcosc> JB: very quiet 12 months. In 2019, we have good conversations to add new things... then 2020 happened... so we haven't done too much. WebKit implemented `databases`. Several of the new things in "v3" are currently only in Blink and Gecko.
22:15:20 <hober> present+
22:16:49 <marcosc> JB: We did check if batch operations could be performance improvement, but turned out it wasn't so we rolled that back. We are exploring how to make more complex queries more performant. We've had only a very small trickle of feature requests, so we haven't moved on adding anything new. We've been considering making some editorial clarifications. If anyone else is interested in helping edit the spec, then please let me know.
22:17:05 <marcosc> JB: we talked about maybe publishing a FPWD. We could still do that.
22:17:21 <marcosc> Topic: Web App Manifest
22:17:31 <marcosc> https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues/999
22:18:32 <zcorpan> https://github.com/w3c/webappswg/wiki/TPAC-2021
22:19:52 <xiaoqian> MC: we had a big meeting yesterday, hoping to get to CR in 6 months, widely implemented
22:20:08 <marcosc> sub-topic: ARIA in HTML
22:21:34 <marcosc> LW: almost at REC. Just going through AC review. We are hoping to be in REC in a month or so and to be using the new Process 2021 for autopublishing RECs
22:21:56 <marcosc> Topic: General questions and other things
22:22:29 <marcosc> Intersection observer issue 431
22:22:41 <zcorpan> https://github.com/w3c/IntersectionObserver/issues/431
22:26:48 <marcosc> SP: this is issue I filed while specifying lazy loading images... if you have scrollable container, and that container has lazy images, those images will start loading too late. In my ideal world, the browser should do the right thing here, rather than require special markup to achieve things. There are some open questions: is it ok to use the same margin as the page, or should this be configurable somehow? And how should people opt-int
22:26:48 <marcosc> o this via intersection observer.
22:27:10 <marcosc> Issue title is "Ability to have automatic rootMargin for all nested scroll containers"
22:28:52 <emilio> q+
22:29:01 <zcorpan> q+
22:29:09 <marcosc> SZ: AMP has this problem. But they handle it by having multiple observers... but it's admittedly a bit inelegant. <discussion around root margins>... it's fragile. I'm open to suggestions.
22:29:56 <marcosc> Emilio: We could maybe use a CSS property? E.g. scroll-margin
22:30:24 <marcosc> SZ: I have an objection to doing that
22:31:08 <marcosc> emilio: we could only read this property if intersection observer opted into it?
22:31:58 <smfr> q+
22:32:05 <marcosc> ack emilio
22:32:34 <marcosc> sz: this can be polyfilled by using a stack of intersection observers
22:32:59 <smfr> q- this was my question
22:33:03 <smfr> q-
22:33:09 <marcosc> sp: what wouodl the behavior be when you specify 100% root margin when you have a scrollable container ?
22:34:14 <smfr> q+
22:34:22 <marcosc> ack zcorpan
22:35:20 <marcosc> sz: I'm happy to go along with whatever is generally useful for web developers
22:35:44 <marcosc> ack smfr
22:36:14 <marcosc> smfr: my actual question for iframes... what happens with lazy loading with iframes?
22:39:28 <marcosc> <discussion around iframes, cross-origin iframes and being able to detect when the parent container gets scrolled, and so on... intersection observer being used as a primitive, and algorithms that are internal to the spec, but not exposed to the API>
22:39:55 <marcosc> sz: the hard part is exposing an public API for this
22:40:16 <marcosc> smfr: we don't need to expose an API, as we are trying to solve this for lazy loading
22:40:52 <marcosc> sz: we don't have a concrete proposal right now
22:41:33 <marcosc> sp: I agree that it's possible without extending the IO API. But I agree that it would be messy because we would need to invalidate a bunch of things.
22:41:58 <marcosc> sz: we just need a clear + detailed proposal
22:42:40 <marcosc> Mc: anyone willing to produce the proposal?
22:42:48 <marcosc> SP: I might get time to do it
22:44:07 <marcosc> sp: there are a few people who know lazy loading, but I might be able to take it on. If a has opinions about different root margins for different scrollers, please comment in the issue.
22:46:01 <marcosc> Meeting adjourned!
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22:46:17 <marcosc> rrsagent, make log public
22:46:17 <marcosc> rrsagent, draft minutes
22:46:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-webapps-minutes.html marcosc
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23:32:02 <marcosc> s/eclusion/occlusion
23:32:10 <marcosc> rrsagent, draft minutes
23:32:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-webapps-minutes.html marcosc
23:33:58 <marcosc> s/Topic: Image Resource/Sub-Topic: Image Resource
23:34:21 <marcosc> s/Topic: Web App Manifest/Sub-Topic: Web App Manifest
23:34:45 <marcosc> rrsagent, draft minutes
23:34:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-webapps-minutes.html marcosc
23:39:58 <marcosc> present+ smfr
23:41:32 <marcosc> present+ Jaunita George
23:41:44 <marcosc> present+ Reilly Grant
23:42:31 <marcosc> present+ Aram Zucker-Scharff
23:42:36 <marcosc> rrsagent, draft minutes
23:42:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-webapps-minutes.html marcosc