13:45:42 RRSAgent has joined #pwe 13:45:42 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-pwe-irc 13:45:48 Meeting: PWE 13:45:57 Date: 2021-10-26 13:46:04 Chair: Tzviya 13:47:02 Agenda+ Inclusion fund – how did it go? 13:47:02 Agenda+ Training resources – please share advice on free resources 13:47:02 Agenda+ Ombuds update, next steps 13:47:02 Agenda+ Inclusive Naming Initiative https://inclusivenaming.org/ 13:47:02 13:52:00 Ralph has joined #pwe 13:54:55 Rain has joined #pwe 13:56:01 present+ David_Fazio, Rain_Michaels,Ralph_Swick 13:57:53 present+ Lisa_Seeman 13:58:04 agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pwe/2021Oct/0002.html 13:58:07 LisaSeemanKest_ has joined #pwe 13:58:38 regrets+ Judy_Brewer, Tobie_Langel 13:59:49 Planning document from COGA for joint session: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/TPAC_2021_initial_planning#Positive_Working_Environments_.28PWE.29 13:59:54 present+ Jennie_Delisi 14:00:24 agenda+ coga inclusive working groups doc at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RbjN7fLaucSzVfTqQdoCHoX3GFEoyHz2iiz3ap9Yd6k/edit#heading=h.bosqf05ss78k 14:01:04 agenda+ how to work with COGA slide presentation: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1UIQu4RqklIlFjEuDPh3bZgMaeqexsRW32ite37AOhoA/edit 14:01:29 (also see https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Other_resources 14:02:11 -> https://www.w3.org/2021/08/24-pwe-minutes.html previous 24 August 14:02:30 julierawe has joined #pwe 14:02:34 present+ 14:02:37 kirkwood has joined #pwe 14:02:47 present+ Rachael_Montgomery, Wendy_Reid, John_Kirkwood 14:02:56 regrets+ Judy, Tobie, 14:03:00 Jennie has joined #PWE 14:03:06 present+ 14:04:00 scribe+ 14:04:23 present+ 14:04:42 regrets+ Léonie 14:04:47 topic: Introductions 14:05:00 [around the squares] 14:06:03 present+ Liz_Lutgendorff 14:08:20 present+ 14:10:16 topic: Overview of COGA work 14:11:01 Jemma has joined #pwe 14:11:42 Rain: COgnitive is the largest diability category in the world 14:12:16 ... last week's panel discussion was recorded; refer to it 14:12:44 ... we want people to be aware of ways to bring better cognitive a11y into your work 14:13:06 ... pleased to be meeting with PWE 14:13:26 ... [slides] 14:13:31 rrsagent, make minutes 14:13:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-pwe-minutes.html Jemma 14:14:29 ... there is a broad range of diagnoses and needs 14:14:43 mental health triggers often have physical consequences also 14:15:27 ... needs can be situational or temporary; working memory, executive function, stress, ... 14:15:52 ... COGA = Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Task Force 14:16:13 ... challenges: many complex and aried types of disabilities 14:16:23 .. range of common myths and biases 14:16:47 ... these myths can show up in personas from other Working Groups 14:17:01 ... COGA is a task force under both APA WG and AGWG 14:17:31 ... and link with the COGA CG 14:17:53 Lisa: we've run into two problems working with well-meaning WGs 14:18:05 ... people would be upset to learn they've been offensive 14:18:31 present+ 14:18:48 ... for example, there was a while where one of the groups that we were participating in and their consensus process would cite minutes and github threads 14:19:08 ... you'd have to open many windows and track many threads to be able to vote on a resolution 14:19:21 ... this caused may to not vote 14:19:38 ... and some others assumed they did not care 14:19:52 ... people tried to vote but weren't able to 14:20:01 q+ to ask if there are Process changes to make 14:20:14 ... so actual consensus didn't exist 14:20:28 Presentation that Jennie put together: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1UIQu4RqklIlFjEuDPh3bZgMaeqexsRW32ite37AOhoA/edit#slide=id.p 14:20:50 ... people can be tagged in ways that they don't realize they have been tagged [in an issue] 14:21:13 ... Jennie put together a slide deck and we have a document 14:21:19 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RbjN7fLaucSzVfTqQdoCHoX3GFEoyHz2iiz3ap9Yd6k/edit#heading=h.bosqf05ss78k 14:22:12 ... we've reached out to several groups to discuss this diversity issue 14:22:18 Lisa and Rain, someone at the 2nd "How to work with COGA" session asked us to put together a one-page summary of Jennie's deck 14:22:21 Inclusive groups working document (sharing again in case this helps Ralph access); https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RbjN7fLaucSzVfTqQdoCHoX3GFEoyHz2iiz3ap9Yd6k/edit# 14:22:36 ... the work we are doing on inclusion is part of the initiative to make sure people can participate and vote 14:22:56 ... we acknowledged there needs to be a balance on what chairs and facilitators are expected to do 14:23:10 ... but a lot of the things don't actually take longer 14:23:12 Per julierawe's point - I have the individual's name if helpful 14:23:22 ... and those that do take longer allow input from a wider consensus group 14:23:31 ... to write web specs we need input from a broader community 14:23:59 Thanks Jennie and Julie: Jennie had mentioned this to me and it is on our list to bring to a COGA meeting. It's a perfect idea. 14:24:05 ... e.g. you might think you're making a spec for improved security but if it results in people writing down passwords and taping them to their desk that actually makes things less secure 14:24:27 ... with the ubiquity of the web we absolutely have to have specifications that include all user groups 14:24:38 ... if everyone cannot participate then we won't have that input 14:24:51 Tzviya: thanks for proposing this joint meeting 14:25:03 https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc 14:25:15 ... the CEPC has a lot of overlap with what is in your document 14:25:22 ... I want to think about what could be added 14:25:41 ... we're not yet proposing a CEPC update but we do have an editor's draft 14:25:43 https://w3c.github.io/PWETF/ 14:25:56 ... the editor's draft has some material that's not yet in the adopted CEPC 14:26:11 ... feel free to open more issues in GitHub 14:26:26 ... be aware that there was a lot of discussion about every line in CEPC 14:26:52 ... also we can consider whether there are things that could be improved in W3C Process 14:27:02 ... e.g. maybe there's a better way to do calls for consensus 14:27:07 ack me 14:27:07 tzviya, you wanted to ask if there are Process changes to make 14:27:10 ack Ralph 14:27:10 Ralph, you wanted to ask about doc access 14:27:49 q+ 14:28:07 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RbjN7fLaucSzVfTqQdoCHoX3GFEoyHz2iiz3ap9Yd6k/edit?usp=sharing 14:28:40 ack julierawe 14:28:51 COGA Work and Content Usable overview: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1YeqvkeE6xbh8yAAUvliA6v4MqbLsj28dFxzRcMyGTz0/edit#slide=id.gf9322f43b0_0_26 14:29:31 Julie: in the CEPC it looks like in Expected Behavior there are some bullet points that the COGA work dives deeply into 14:29:39 q+ 14:29:46 ... how to write email subject lines, how to do notifications in GitHub 14:30:14 ... the How to work with COGA session dives deeply into specifics on how to work together 14:30:14 ack wendyreid 14:30:31 Wendy: there are parallels here; PWE and IDCG have discussed chairs training a lot 14:30:50 ... we've wanted to do specific targeted training on best practices for running meetings 14:31:14 ... it sounds like there is a lot of material in the COGA docs that would be good for both experienced chairs and new chairs 14:31:27 q+ 14:31:29 Tzviya: we've also talked about training on conflict de-escalation 14:31:39 ack Rain 14:31:40 q+ 14:31:48 Rain: interesting that you mention conflict de-escalation 14:31:49 PDF of presentation is located at https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Other_resources 14:31:58 ... that is especially relevant in this situation 14:32:20 ... one thing that often happens is that some COGA needs are very different from the needs of those participants who are using screen readers 14:32:59 w3c participation is very intimidating 14:33:03 q+ 14:33:07 ... two parties who are trying to understand each other's needs may end up thinking the other is being dismissive of their needs 14:33:17 ... this can escalate and does become a challenge for us 14:33:38 ... I'm very interested in the conflict de-escalation material 14:33:49 ack LisaSeemanKest_ 14:33:49 ... and how to recognize misunderstandings before they become a conflict 14:34:15 Lisa: it's going to be important to define the difference between accomodation and where things are possible or easy 14:34:37 ... there are some things you might not be able to do but there are ways of saying that 14:35:11 ... e.g. "you need to be able to read every email" 14:35:17 q+ 14:35:23 ... there's a process of finding out whether someone can or can't do something 14:35:43 q+ 14:35:45 ... there are good ways to come to a conclusion on what someone can do 14:35:51 ack Jennie 14:35:59 Tzviya: much is about speaking with people respectfully 14:36:13 Jennie: see our wiki page with links to our presentations 14:36:23 ... let us know if you don't have access 14:37:02 ... as I was preparing slides, and as I was joining W3C groups, the cognitive load of learning new systems and how many of them are used at the same time 14:37:13 +1 to Jennie 14:37:25 ... people who aren't familiar with international meeting times and how they might shift during the year 14:37:46 ... I was excited to hear mention of the possibility of adding to Process 14:38:01 ... consider how we measure and consider workload of group participants 14:38:11 +1 to Jennie 14:38:27 ... my recommendation, based on how we prepared for this TPAC, is that there's a lot of process learning to do 14:38:34 Process Community Group https://www.w3.org/community/w3process/ 14:38:54 ... e.g. as Invited Experts, John and I cannot access some of the material that others in the Group can access 14:39:11 ... there are hoops that people have to jump through that add to the cognitive load 14:39:27 ... Lisa shared some important pieces in last week's recorded presentations 14:39:45 ... systematically looking at where the stories apply could be part of the process review 14:39:57 q? 14:39:57 * Thanks Tzviya! 14:40:09 ack Rai 14:41:08 Rain: a similar issue to what Jennie said: in addition to the cognitive load it's important to acknowledge and include in the support materials that truly being inclusive is a lot of work 14:41:32 ... it can help all of us, and especially the chairs, to rethink our expectations of ourselves and our groups to allow for enough time for us to be effective 14:42:13 ... for example, there was such a heavy workload in organizing TPAC meetings that mistakes were made and some people weren't able to participate 14:42:40 ... thanks for offering your email address to help with posting GitHub issues 14:42:58 ... to report feedback, we probably won't be able to use GitHub issues 14:43:13 ... we'll probably create a Google Doc and share it 14:43:33 ack julierawe 14:43:37 ... that creates additional work for someone to open GH issues 14:44:27 Julie: on chair training, I joined a meeting where the chair was trying to be inclusive but the way I was invited to participate made me feel disoriented 14:44:55 ... chair training on how to make people feel comfortable would really help 14:45:19 Tzviya: great comment 14:45:30 q+ 14:45:40 ack LisaSeemanKest_ 14:45:41 ... in TPAC 2020 we did some CEPC training using scenarios 14:45:56 Lisa: W3C is inherently very conducive to "come as you are" 14:46:08 ... if you have something to give, then you are welcome 14:46:55 ... a place where many things, such as age, don't matter 14:47:07 ... but there are still things that need a bit of help 14:47:26 Tzviya: on next steps; every group PWE has talked with has asked for training 14:47:35 ... I see a lot of material from COGA that we can use 14:47:39 q? 14:47:57 ... what are the COGA's next steps that you'd like to see? 14:48:16 Rain: we'll look at some of the documents you've shared and create a document in response 14:48:22 ... this may take several months 14:48:26 q+ 14:48:49 ... one thing I'd like to see is to know what things PWE/IDCG is working on 14:49:02 ... e.g. if you're working on a training, how can we help? 14:49:15 ... maybe someone who can be a liaison between PWE/IDCG and COGA 14:49:16 ack LisaSeemanKest_ 14:49:28 Lisa: one of the next steps is to determine how we can work together 14:49:54 ... sometimes we dive in deeply and our documents might be on tooling issues in a lot of detail, with practical things one can do 14:50:11 ... we might spend 3 months making comments that are at the wrong level 14:50:21 ... a pre-step might be to get the granularity right 14:50:37 ... where do you want comments? where are they productive? 14:50:48 ... where do you want links for further resources? 14:51:05 ... that might help to identify places where we can work together optimally 14:51:29 ... and discuss the right mechanism; liaison? joint subgroup? to work together 14:51:51 Tzviya: there will be an updated CEPC at some point 14:52:07 ... the CG concluded it's not a good idea to update such policy documents often 14:52:29 ... unless there's a grave issue that needs to be addressed we felt it should sit for a few years 14:52:46 ... on granularity, CEPC is broad-brushed 14:53:12 ... we have general concepts, e.g. about harassment, but missed a few specific things 14:53:38 ... we try to back up the language we use based on materials that exist 14:53:54 ... we're not likely to add something very specific that affects just one group of people 14:54:10 ... we're in the process of looking at and revising W3C's Ombuds procedure 14:54:20 ... the Ombuds procedure is out of date 14:54:37 ... and we don't have a well-defined discipline process; we're revamping that as well 14:54:55 ... PWE CG has been responsible for the Inclusion Fund and working with W3M 14:55:26 ... Judy Brewer and Léonie Watson are very involved in both PWE/IDCG and WAI 14:55:55 ... so we have pretty active representation from WAI, though not necessarily COGA 14:56:18 Rain: Lisa, Rachael, and I have been connecting with Judy regarding tooling and communication processes 14:56:40 ... we'll mention to her that we met in this joint session and there may be strong opportunities to work together 14:56:53 Tzviya: definitely we'll work with you to establish this relationship 14:57:07 Lisa: the next steps are what? 14:57:18 ... what's on my to-do- list? 14:57:30 Tzviya: looking at the CEPC to see if there's anything really missing 14:57:43 ... and talking about the training 14:57:52 q+ 14:58:12 Lisa: you'd like us to review CEPC? but comments might take a few years to appear in a revision? 14:58:41 Tzviya: we don't have a planned schedule but if there's something really glaring we could consider an update sooner 14:58:51 Lisa: are you interested in linking to our resources? 14:58:57 Tzviya: we have a library on Zotero 14:59:09 https://www.zotero.org/groups/2864452/w3c_pwe/library 14:59:11 ... usually Zotero links to published documents 14:59:25 ... Zotero is our archive of documents 14:59:35 ... if you'd like to add something, please let us know 14:59:37 present+ 15:00:08 ... and the Process CG is also open to anyone, if you think there are Process things that need to be updated 15:00:14 zakim, end meeting 15:00:14 As of this point the attendees have been David_Fazio, Rain_Michaels, Ralph_Swick, Lisa_Seeman, Jennie_Delisi, julierawe, Rachael_Montgomery, Wendy_Reid, John_Kirkwood, Jennie, 15:00:18 ... wendyreid, Liz_Lutgendorff, LisaSeemanKest_, kirkwood, Fazio 15:00:18 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 15:00:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-pwe-minutes.html Zakim 15:00:21 I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 15:00:24 Zakim has left #pwe 15:01:24 [adjourned] 15:01:36 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 15:01:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-pwe-minutes.html Ralph 15:02:36 rrsagent, bye 15:02:36 I see no action items