18:01:59 RRSAgent has joined #auto 18:01:59 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-auto-irc 18:02:01 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:02:02 Meeting: Automotive Working Group Teleconference 18:02:08 Chair: Peter, Ted 18:02:09 scribenick: ted 18:02:23 Present+ Ashish, Peter, Ted, Ulf, Isaac 18:03:32 present+ 18:04:02 Present+ MagnusG 18:04:43 Present+ Erik 18:06:06 Present+ Gunnar 18:07:13 Present+ Adnan 18:07:48 @@slides 18:08:05 Topic: Access Control Framework Research 18:08:21 Ashish: security, access control and privacy are key pillars 18:08:50 … trying to keep scope reasonable and narrow. this is influenced by best practices discussions 18:09:33 … requirements I considered is arbitrary signal access, controlling distribution of that data, polling frequency and computing constraints 18:09:55 … yes resources in a vehicle are limited but potentially expandable as well 18:10:21 … created a table for these areas, requirements and different access control models 18:10:35 … attribute based access control seemed to be the best fit 18:11:18 … did a survey of policy languages, no surprise XACML is a contender as it is widely used. they have data flow and policy models 18:11:42 … first is the data flow model, different entities. [data flow model slide] 18:12:05 [describes the decision flow cf diagram] 18:12:49 Ashish: XACML also has a policy language model. you can have different rules and effects, algorithms can be combined 18:13:04 … I want to take each of these requirements and see how they apply to automotive needs 18:13:19 … I refer to data flow as decision model 18:13:41 … various factors can apply such as location (geofence) and time (work hours) 18:13:56 [Policy model slide] 18:14:31 Ashish: this is how I envision the policy model could be used 18:15:26 … regarding dissemination of vehicle data, the challenge is how to regulate after it leaves the vehicle. to do so requires accountability 18:15:54 … specifically looking at a sticky policy and combining with proxy re-encryptino (which Isaac has previously explained to this group) 18:16:40 … a sticky policy follows the data and as that would take storage space, it could be referenced instead of duplicated **q+ 18:17:00 … I still need to understand PRE better and would like to further my understanding with Isaac 18:17:10 [slide on PRE] 18:22:10 Ashish: I wanted to look at scalability of PRE+sticky policy, time to decrypt 18:22:38 Isaac: happy to discuss with you and agree the combination is beneficial 18:23:04 Ashish: there is no absolute way to protect data after it leaves the vehicle but this goes a far way 18:23:43 … I introduce a watchdog to monitor frequency of data access 18:24:38 … for regulating on-board computing resources. a scheduler and memory manager could be combined with the watchdog 18:25:35 … I plan on evaluating these approaches, using formal methods for qualitative and quantitative 18:26:05 … part of regulating computing resources is prioritizing some processes over others 18:26:29 … comparison would require establishing a baseline in XACML 18:27:11 … part of my research includes protecting the sensitivity of the data which may warrant different transmission means 18:27:37 … we haven't accounted for purpose as required by GDPR yet 18:27:55 … thank you for your time, appreciate any feedback you might have 18:33:56 Ted encourages OEM and Tier 1s to give reactions or insights (on or off record) on what they know is taking place 18:34:10 Ashish: how easy would it be to expand computing resources 18:35:17 Ted: doubt they're interested in doing so, Tesla did for older vehicles as part of a recall on their MCU 18:35:23 Peter: it won't happen 18:38:19 Ted @@on GDPR+consent 18:38:35 Ashish: regarding granular/attribute based access control 18:41:22 [discussion on role vs attribute based] 18:41:40 Gunnar: it depends on how many attributes are being taken into account re how complex it would be to manage 18:42:17 … I think we were there early on in access control where we should make a list of attributes, circumstances on whether something should be accessible 18:42:39 … identity of user, which application, where it is running from (external to vehicle, cloud or phone...) 18:43:11 … the specification doesn't need to define all these, that can be left to the implementer 18:43:56 … not sure which is more common, attribute or role. Android is straight forward, signals are grouped and applications given access to groups with user consent 18:47:33 Topic: Issues and PR 18:48:29 Ulf: last time we discussed MQTT and created a PR based on it, not sure we can make a decision on it today but encourage others to read through it and I would need time to digest Erik's comments 18:48:44 … please read further for next week 18:49:05 https://github.com/w3c/automotive/pull/427 18:50:28 Ulf: Wonsuk noted a few error codes were missing and added these two 18:50:30 https://github.com/w3c/automotive/pull/428 18:50:55 … time duration we check somewhere and we should be able to report it as well as requested data not being found 18:51:28 … without double checking, I am pretty sure he is correct and propose we merge this request 18:52:58 Ulf: I provided feedback on https://github.com/w3c/automotive/issues/422 based on last week's discussion 18:53:41 … we shouldn't support multiple scopes within an access token but it can be addressed with this new authentication protocol flow where we have access per signal defined within the token itself 18:53:47 (attribute based) 18:54:13 Ulf: it is also possible with multiple requests using different tokens although less convenient 18:54:32 … Adnan, have you heard back from your colleague? 18:54:43 Adnan: we will have a look 18:54:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-auto-minutes.html ted 18:55:57 https://github.com/w3c/automotive/issues/425 18:56:18 Ulf: there are various scenarios where the VIN isn't known or necessary 18:56:46 … we agreed this is a valid point and could be solved readily by making the VIN parameter optional 18:57:13 Adnan: it would be worth stating when it would be worth stating 18:57:25 Ulf: question on whether it should be in best practices or spec 19:00:01 Ted: depends, BP can evolve after spec is done. are we going to be general or detailed and expand over time 19:00:07 … need to keep developer in mind 19:00:41 Gunnar: want to emphasize that, best practices is more high level guidance whereas spec is more rigid definition 19:01:37 Ulf: I am seeing some other points raised in this issue besides just the VIN. they also want access control a MUST instead of optional/SHOULD 19:03:25 Adnan: agree with Gunnar, in the spec is better to have consistency 19:03:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-auto-minutes.html ted 20:24:53 Zakim has left #auto 21:00:22 s|@@slides|https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2021Oct/att-0013/Conencted_Vehicle_Framework_for_Security_and_Privacy.pptx| 21:00:24 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-auto-minutes.html ted 21:00:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-auto-minutes.html ted