17:46:18 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 17:46:18 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-aria-apg-irc 17:46:38 Zakim has joined #aria-apg 17:46:49 zakim, clear agenda 17:46:50 agenda cleared 17:46:56 CHAIR: Jemma 17:47:10 MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 17:47:16 present+ 17:47:23 rrsagent, make log public 17:47:31 rrsagent, make minutes 17:47:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King 17:53:49 present+ 17:53:56 regrets+ 17:56:48 jongund has joined #aria-apg 17:57:04 jongunderson has joined #aria-apg 18:01:09 MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria-apg 18:01:13 present+ 18:01:47 siri has joined #aria-apg 18:02:04 scribe anyone?/me 18:02:25 zakim, pick a victim 18:02:25 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Jemma 18:02:41 present+ Sarahhigley 18:03:14 sarah_higley has joined #aria-apg 18:03:24 scribe: MarkMcCarthy 18:03:48 present+ 18:03:57 Topic: Accordion 18:04:18 Topic: tooltip 18:04:28 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/128 18:04:46 Jemma: so thinking about what updates we can make, right? 18:04:59 https://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/#tooltip 18:05:07 Matt_King: just want look at what we can try between now/Nov 1 and Nov 8 18:05:29 howard_edwards has joined #aria-apg 18:05:32 Matt_King: a super simple illustration/example page, if we can do that between now and then that would be great 18:05:50 Matt_King: at least want to try, it would be very helpful for 1.2. sarah_higley what do you think? 18:06:37 sarah_higley: what i'm working on would be a big changee so i don't think we can review that in time. but if you want something small before the 8th... 18:06:49 present+ 18:06:55 Matt_King: well i'm asking if you think there's any small changes _worth_ making more than anything 18:07:17 sarah_higley: a small interim change might bog us down a bit 18:07:29 Matt_King: ok! just wanted input before making an explicit decision 18:07:37 sarah_higley: if anyone _wants_ it i'm happy to work on it 18:07:46 Matt_King: unless there's objection, we'll leave as is for now 18:08:08 Topic: Accordions 18:08:25 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/projects/8 18:08:30 Matt_King: we merged your first changes sarah_higley, simple stuff 18:09:11 Matt_King: but you have another PR that's basically to add an additional accordion; so we'd have one with static content, one with forms, and this more robust forms/wizard one you made in 1834, right? 18:09:25 Matt_King: is _this_ something we want to land in the next 2 weeks? 18:09:36 sarah_higley: i think i just need to add tests so we should be able to review it 18:10:01 Matt_King: awesome, i'll change it from a draft so we can get reviews done while you're adding tests 18:10:08 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1834 18:10:37 Jemma: since we have howard_edwards with us, i see 1834 is assigned to Jes - do we need to change that? 18:10:46 Jemma: also hello howard_edwards! 18:11:07 howard_edwards: myself and Simon will be looking through Jes' assignments, you can assign them to me 18:11:42 Jes: it didn't disappear, i was just waiting for things to be more ready 18:13:11 Matt_King: Issue 1002 -- I've always thought No should answer those questions, but Bryan had another thought 18:13:44 BryanGaraventa: my concern is I see people using accordions for many things. for simple things landmarking the answers might not be so important, headings might be enough. 18:14:38 BryanGaraventa: but in cases like megamenu structures, those are accordion style interfaces. When someone does that, it's hard to tell where the regions are, especially if the activeelements info isn't there to demarcate boundaries 18:14:52 Matt_King: so if they're not things that should be landmark regions, shouldn't they be labelled groups? 18:15:45 BryanGaraventa: I think the Adobe megamenu structure works in the way I'm describing. groups technically work but doesn't include navigation between regions which might be important 18:17:02 Matt_King: sounds like issue 1002, which is about disclosures and an FAQ example... I'm concerned we'd be conflicting with our landmark advice (like not using too many regions). a long accordion/FAQ then might overpopulate regions 18:17:53 BryanGaraventa: True, you're right. maybe guidance that if something is simple it doesn't need them. I'm thinking of something like settings panels if there's show/hide controls, additional form fields near text, large paragraphs, etc. 18:18:21 ... if there are no regions, there's very little that helps you understand where you are. having region nav commands can be really helpful in cases like that 18:18:49 +q to ask Bryan's use case 18:18:49 Matt_King: in the accordion pattern you're always supposed to use headings, we discourage regions inside main. if proper heading structure is used, wouldn't it conflict? 18:19:05 "however this guidance does not take into account that there may be many such regions where the only way to ensure proper nesting information is to expose the relevant regions that are applicable." 18:19:15 siri: and they're grouped by list elements. 18:19:43 Matt_King: well accordions aren't typically a list format, we removed the list structure from accordions with help from community feedback 18:21:27 Matt_King: and if we use lists, then you're forcing authors to put other list items inside the parent list item, which may or may not be appropriate. 18:22:05 Jemma: So Bryan mentioned the above quote [that I pasted in a few lines up]. is there a specific use case for this? Or could we use a parent/child relationship? 18:22:21 BryanGaraventa: I don't know anything that works as well as region might. group _may_ .... 18:22:55 Matt_King: headings work really well. normally, in the main content of any document, info in the main region would be under headings... 18:23:05 BryanGaraventa: Well not all accordions I've seen have headings 18:23:19 Matt_King: our pattern, though, recommends using headings for each header 18:24:06 Why don't we use que for questions? 18:24:12 BryanGaraventa: in a megamenu, there might not always be headings, and they don't always use headings because the styles might change - i've heard reluctance to doing so 18:24:19 Matt_King: would you be opposed to aria-role=heading? 18:24:30 s/que/queue/ 18:24:33 BryanGaraventa: i've recommended it! it helps, but only when they do it 18:25:05 another option is dd dl 18:25:19 sarah_higley: style issues should be solved with CSS. But also, there's lots of places where headings might not be appropriate based on content structure. it seems very "it depends" 18:26:16 Matt_King: i think if we could come up with such an example... i'm struggling with the concept that semantically a region can't substitute for a heading. and if you use a region label, why not use an ARIA heading? 18:27:55 BryanGaraventa: So if you rely on headings to mark boundaries of a dynamic region, if you don't convey the _end_ of that content, it's hard to know when you've strayed outside of it. in the case of something like a settings panel/dialog, that can be expanded/collapsed, it might be easy to leave that area without realizing it. e.g. if there's no headings after it 18:28:17 +1 to Matt 18:28:18 BryanGaraventa: It's a little niche but a relevent example 18:28:36 Matt_King: i'm hesitant to say it should be a landmark region, because landmark regions aren't meant to convey boundaries 18:28:46 BryanGaraventa: We do that for carousels though 18:29:27 Matt_King: did we use role=region for the outer container and role=group for the slide container? i think so 18:30:02 Matt_King: okay so if you put one region around the entire accordion, maybe that'd work. but that'd depend on the context 18:30:43 Matt_King: so back to issue 954... 18:31:11 BryanGaraventa: if there's a simple way to do this without region i'm welcome to it, but I haven't found anything as useful 18:31:19 Matt_King: role=separator with a description? 18:31:53 BryanGaraventa: you can't skip separators with shift-greaterThan in JAWS with separators 18:32:05 sarah_higley: i just want to add that we shouldn't be TOO perscriptive 18:32:37 BryanGaraventa: I agree - i also don't want to encourage people NOT to do something that CAN help accessibility 18:32:40 Matt_King: I also agree 18:33:32 Matt_King: if you can change some wording in 954 to get something useful around the entire accordion widget, maybe that'd be good 18:33:57 BryanGaraventa: That makes sense, that could be useful 18:34:05 rrsagent, make minutes 18:34:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-aria-apg-minutes.html Jemma 18:34:34 Matt_King: does that address things, at least for now, Bryan? 18:35:25 BryanGaraventa: I think so, I can try it out 18:35:45 Matt_King: can you take a look and try it out? See if you can address some wording and all? 18:37:15 jemma: that took care of 1834 and 954 18:37:27 Matt_King: let's take a look at 1814, Jon's PR 18:38:03 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1814 18:38:54 Matt_King: is there new a11y feature documentation on here? 18:38:55 jongund: yes 18:39:08 Matt_King: any changes to visual design? We could do that now if so 18:39:43 jongund: mostly just some updates to make everything look more consistent with our other exmaples 18:39:53 s/exmaples/examples 18:42:32 Matt_King: does anyone have any concerns about the styling on either of these examples? 18:43:48 jongund: SVGs are also updated to be better in line with HCM best practices 18:44:08 MarkMcCarthy: visual design looks good to me 18:44:30 jongund: should be a big improvement actually 18:44:37 Matt_King: awesome, let's check off visual review 18:44:46 Matt_King: editorial should be pretty quick 18:45:12 siri: i'll check it in HCM 18:49:48 [discussion about different on:hover vs. on:focus styling, generally speaking and not necessarily related to the issue] 18:52:36 Matt_King: moving on, let's look at the visual design for combobox 18:54:16 jongund: overall i think this is a big improvement to the previous visual styling 18:54:35 MarkMcCarthy: i think so too, easy to tell what's selected, where focus is, that the combobox is selected. well done! 18:54:44 jongund: i also added documentation 18:54:58 Matt_King: sounds like the changes are positive, awesome 18:55:11 Matt_King: so then the radio button one... 18:55:29 jongund: this one was fixing styling that i didn't know was broken. it was removed at some point along the line 18:56:02 Matt_King: oh i was talking about 2056, i think I merged the one you just mentioned 18:58:42 jongund: so with scroll-to, commenting out one bit of code seemed to fix the problem 18:58:50 Matt_King: any visual design changes or anything? 18:58:52 jongund: nope 18:58:58 Matt_King: so then that one should be good 18:59:05 zakim, who is here 18:59:05 MarkMcCarthy, you need to end that query with '?' 18:59:07 zakim, who is here? 18:59:07 Present: Matt_King, Jemma, MarkMcCarthy, Sarahhigley, sarah_higley, howard_edwards 18:59:09 On IRC I see howard_edwards, siri, MarkMcCarthy, jongund, Zakim, RRSAgent, Matt_King, Jemma, zcorpan, github-bot, MichaelC, ZoeBijl, jamesn, s3ththompson, trackbot 18:59:23 present+ siri 19:00:23 Matt_King: thanks everyone, great meeting today! 19:00:39 Matt_King: T-1 week to look at PRs, 1.2 is coming! 19:00:45 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:00:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/26-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy 21:18:57 Matt_King has left #aria-apg 21:26:14 Zakim has left #aria-apg