IRC log of sustainability on 2021-10-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

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present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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present+
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Scribenick: fantasai
00:02:38 [fantasai]
Topic: Recording
00:02:50 [fantasai]
tantek: Do we want to record the session? Does anyone have a preference?
00:03:18 [fantasai]
Jake: I would prefer recorded, to be able to refer back.
00:04:46 [kirkwood]
present+
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tantek: OK, seems no one is opposed, so we'll record the meeting
00:05:15 [fantasai]
Topic: Sustainability
00:05:20 [fantasai]
tantek: Welcome to session
00:05:28 [fantasai]
tantek: I'm Tantek Çelik
00:05:41 [fantasai]
tantek: at W3C for quite some time, also AC rep of Mozilla
00:05:54 [fantasai]
tantek: Here to talk about sustainability and environmental concerns of what we do here at W3C
00:06:05 [fantasai]
tantek: Will share some relevant links
00:06:48 [fantasai]
tantek: A few points I wanted to go over
00:06:55 [fantasai]
tantek: outline of the urgency
00:07:19 [fantasai]
tantek: Something that's changed recently, and why topic particularly interesting this year
00:07:22 [fantasai]
tantek: is the IPCC report this year
00:07:38 [fantasai]
tantek: Gave us the most dire warning we've ever seen about the state of the climate crisis and our impact on it
00:07:47 [fantasai]
tantek: driven by energy usage, fossil fuels in particular
00:08:17 [fantasai]
tantek: Report was significant enough stepping up of the importance of why this is urgent that folks like the BBC, usually a restrained publication, used expressions like "code red for humanity"
00:08:22 [fantasai]
tantek: I think it's not an understatement
00:08:49 [fantasai]
tantek: If areas we're involved in can make situation much worse, or can make the situation better, then that's something to keep in mind with the work that we do and the things we create
00:08:59 [AramZS]
Press release of the report: https://www.ipcc.ch/2021/08/09/ar6-wg1-20210809-pr/
00:09:06 [fantasai]
tantek: I wanted to start with the first principle, which is, can we actually follow Hippocratic Oath here, and "do no harm" here as well'
00:09:07 [AramZS]
Report in detail - https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg1/
00:09:13 [fantasai]
tantek: Don't harm the patient, don't harm the planet
00:09:19 [fantasai]
tantek: Especially can we do no new harms
00:09:29 [fantasai]
tantek: Closest we have to that here at W3C is the TAG's Ethical Web Principles
00:09:37 [AramZS]
Mentioned BBC report: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-58130705
00:09:43 [fantasai]
tantek: Especially, "Web must be environmentally sustainable platform"
00:09:59 [fantasai]
tantek: Talk not only about power consumption (which is primary source of makign things worse, via carbon emissions)
00:10:08 [fantasai]
tantek: but also impact of devices thrown away, hardware turnover
00:10:24 [fantasai]
tantek: As much as standards we make shape updates to software, how does it affect how long you can use the device before needing to buy a new device
00:10:25 [AramZS]
Our ethical web principles, anchor linked to discussed section - https://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/ethical-web-principles/#sustainable
00:10:27 [db]
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00:10:33 [fantasai]
tantek: Right now only a TAG Ethical Web Principle
00:10:43 [db]
Note: electricity != emissions
00:10:44 [fantasai]
tantek: As part of Do No Harm, I'd like to encourage us to place sustainability
00:10:53 [fantasai]
tantek: alongside accessibility and internationalization
00:10:58 [fantasai]
tantek: those are well-accepted areas of horizontal review
00:11:10 [db]
All electricity generation on the planet accounts for about 25% of global emissions
00:11:20 [fantasai]
tantek: and areas where, if there are blocking items, that are harmful for a11y or i18n, we stop and say, need to fix this first
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tantek: I propose that we adopt that same level of pulling the emergency brake, as it were, for horizontal reviews of sustainability
00:12:13 [fantasai]
tantek: for energy use or device obsolence, should review whether it causes some non-trivial increase in energy use or lifespan of devices
00:12:20 [fantasai]
tantek: On the other hand, if spec can reduce energy --
00:12:30 [db]
Note: between 50-60% of electricity generated every year is totally lost to waste - the inability to feasibly use the electricity generated
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00:12:33 [fantasai]
tantek: Which standards often do, because standards allow for increased efficiency in many cases
00:12:42 [fantasai]
tantek: We should also avoid amplifying existing known harms
00:12:49 [fantasai]
tantek: areas of tech that we know are harmful to environment
00:12:55 [fantasai]
tantek: key area here that I think has an impact here
00:13:03 [fantasai]
tantek: is what are tech areas that are consuming lots of energy?
00:13:13 [fantasai]
tantek: enough that it can be measured in comparison to energy consumption of entire countries
00:13:24 [db]
Energy != emissions, a fallacy is being posed right now
00:13:25 [fantasai]
tantek: biggest one there is proof of work blockchains, Bitcoin in particular
00:13:43 [db]
NYT article may be the worst article on this subject ever written
00:13:48 [fantasai]
tantek: NYTimes did an infographic on how mining one BTC was very small amoutn of energy, but now uses more electricity than most countries
00:13:57 [fantasai]
tantek: This is an area where we know there's harm happening
00:14:03 [AramZS]
Page 43 of the IPCC's report on global warning specifies energy emission and power plants as an issue - https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg1/downloads/faqs/IPCC_AR6_WGI_FAQs.pdf
00:14:09 [fantasai]
tantek: there is disproportionate use of energy
00:14:13 [fantasai]
??: What's the net emissions?
00:14:17 [db]
q+
00:14:32 [jyasskin]
s/??/db/
00:14:41 [fantasai]
tantek: One reason, in this case, bitcoin usage of electricity, some proportion causing emissions is something that on its own is causing harm
00:14:48 [rgrant]
q+ to suggest that a precautionary principle against using energy is not appropriate when human rights are at risk
00:14:59 [fantasai]
tantek: were we to legitimize its use as part of a standards, we know that the network effects of Web would exponentially increase use of that technology
00:15:04 [fantasai]
tantek: so that's a decision before us
00:15:07 [jake_]
+q
00:15:12 [db]
Note: statements are being posed as fact that are not just disputed, they are abjectly false
00:15:15 [fantasai]
tantek: not only should we not standardize on Bitcoin, should avoid legitimizing it
00:15:20 [fantasai]
tantek: one argument has been to let markets decide
00:15:26 [fantasai]
tantek: example here is DID specification
00:15:35 [rgrant]
q+ to push back against web usage making Bitcoin usage exponentially more harmful
00:15:39 [AramZS]
Note this report on bitcoin mining reopening power plants that were closed specifically because of air quality issues - https://apnews.com/article/bitcoin-mining-new-york-power-plant-climate-change-516dbd319394a6a30f83d94947abad20
00:15:49 [Jay]
q+
00:15:49 [fantasai]
tantek: I will push back on that a little bit because as we are seeing the existing cryptocurrency markets themselves, they're demonstrating that they're optimized for financial gain at the expense of all other considerations
00:16:01 [fantasai]
tantek: there are groups starting new fossil fuel power plants just to mine Bitcoin
00:16:18 [fantasai]
tantek: Can find examples in popular media easily
00:16:22 [rgrant]
Bitcoin emissions also have huge pressures to find sustainable energy. You can learn more here: https://niccarter.info/wp-content/uploads/TBW-Presentation-Template_2021_nc.pdf
00:16:26 [fantasai]
tantek: That's happening on its own, and we don't want to amplify that
00:16:37 [fantasai]
tantek: SO 1. Don't do harm 2. Don't amplify existing harm
00:16:40 [db]
The vast majority of POW use is with green and renewable sources
00:16:43 [fantasai]
tantek: Third example is to reduce existing non-trivial harms
00:16:57 [fantasai]
tantek: examples
00:17:00 [db]
the estimate is well over a supermajority of consumption
00:17:04 [fantasai]
tantek: Here's a study recently published by EU
00:17:16 [jeff]
q+
00:17:23 [fantasai]
tantek: found double-digits percentage of energy usage on smartphones is caused by unwanted ad tech
00:17:37 [fantasai]
tantek: This is an existing envirionmental harm, coming directly from Web usage on mobile phones today
00:17:56 [db]
Note: POW systems are projected to be GHG neutral or negative in the next 10-15 years
00:17:57 [fantasai]
tantek: So can W3C look into reduce these effects, which are unrelated to the uses of the Web that users want
00:18:03 [AramZS]
Speaker has cited: https://groenlinks.nl/sites/groenlinks/files/2021-09/CE_Delft_210166_Carbon_footprint_unwanted_data-use_smartphones.pdf
00:18:03 [fantasai]
tantek: This is btw in priority order
00:18:11 [fantasai]
tantek: 1. Don't add new harms, add HR to catch those
00:18:17 [fantasai]
tantek: 2. Don't amplify existing
00:18:28 [fantasai]
tantek: 3. If areas we can reduce Web's energy usage over time, that's where we need to be
00:18:36 [fantasai]
tantek: I took these from IPCC report
00:18:42 [fantasai]
tantek: It's not good enough to go carbon neutral
00:18:49 [fantasai]
tantek: The report was that we need to reduce the total
00:19:01 [fantasai]
tantek: not just net zero, but aiming as close to actual zero as we can
00:19:03 [AramZS]
Also worth noting when discussing the impact of bitcoin mining on less robust energy ecosystems outside of US/Canada/Europe - https://gizmodo.com/iran-bans-crypto-mining-after-months-of-blackouts-1846991039
00:19:04 [fantasai]
tantek: Those are my 3 points
00:19:07 [rgrant]
I suggest 4: don't shoot yourself in the foot by ignoring positive value from using energy. Unfortunately, it's not compatible with purely reducing energy usage.
00:19:16 [fantasai]
tantek: In response to some of these, I want to address some common arguments
00:19:22 [fantasai]
tantek: "what about"-ism
00:19:27 [fantasai]
tantek: common enough method of argument, or fallacy
00:19:28 [jyasskin]
q+
00:19:31 [fantasai]
tantek: entire wikipedia page aobut it
00:19:31 [AramZS]
Whataboutism - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
00:19:44 [fantasai]
tantek: "What about energy usage of CSS?" "What about energy usage of video on the Web?"
00:19:55 [fantasai]
tantek: It's an attempt to deflect from the point being made to a different argument
00:20:10 [fantasai]
tantek: short version is, if worried about energy production, but largest sources the most
00:20:19 [fantasai]
tantek: we don't see e.g. NYT writing about energy consumption of CSS
00:20:25 [fantasai]
tantek: very few about video
00:20:30 [fantasai]
tantek: much less than proof of work blockchain
00:20:36 [db]
They don't write about clothes dryer consumption because it's not a hot topic they think they can drive clicks to
00:20:40 [fantasai]
tantek: So as much as I want an open discussion, woudl want to avoid such style of arguments
00:20:42 [AramZS]
Additional article about local climate impact created by mining - https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/07/bitcoin-power-plant-is-turning-a-12000-year-old-glacial-lake-into-a-hot-tub/
00:20:46 [fantasai]
tantek: Second style of argument is the nirvana fallacy
00:21:02 [AramZS]
Nirvana Fallacy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy
00:21:06 [fantasai]
tantek: Style of argument in which comparison of actual functioning system with proposal, which worked as expected, would be a better replacement for existing system
00:21:43 [fantasai]
tantek: That's often used in various Bitcoin arguments, in terms of fiat currencies consuming huge amount of energy to run (depending how you measure it), and if we switch everything to Bitcoin, would use less energy
00:21:51 [fantasai]
tantek: but that's comparing a theoretical system with an existing system
00:21:59 [fantasai]
tantek: so that's why consider it a nirvana argument
00:22:07 [fantasai]
tantek: That's it for prepared remarks
00:22:35 [tantek]
q?
00:22:42 [tantek]
ack db
00:22:47 [AramZS]
An additional rather long article that runs through some of the common objections to the bitcoin<>mining energy question - https://ketanjoshi.co/2021/03/11/bitcoin-is-a-mouth-hungry-for-fossil-fuels/
00:23:14 [fantasai]
db: Want to make a few remarks. Ignoring fallacies. Everything we do as technologists has impact on energy use, so we have to compare things.
00:23:20 [fantasai]
db: Electricity is not emissions
00:23:40 [fantasai]
db: In long scheme of time, electricity will be carbon-free
00:23:46 [fantasai]
db: Emissions is not electricity
00:23:52 [fantasai]
db: Article in NY Times is worst article
00:23:59 [fantasai]
db: They focus on electricity number. It drives clicks
00:24:06 [fantasai]
db: As much electricity as this tiny island!
00:24:15 [fantasai]
db: But they didn't dig into emissions, because it takes more work
00:24:17 [fantasai]
db: but other people did
00:24:19 [AramZS]
Here's an article that digs into emissions from The Telegraph - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2021/01/28/inside-dirty-world-bitcoin-mining/
00:24:27 [fantasai]
db: Global emissions is 25% from electricity
00:24:36 [fantasai]
db: So something consuming 0.25% of electricity
00:24:43 [fantasai]
db: is only 1/4 of that is emissions
00:24:54 [rgrant]
Here is a critique of the NYT's reporting on Bitcoin (i think it's a different article, but same topic) https://medium.com/@nic__carter/on-bitcoin-the-gray-lady-embraces-climate-lysenkoism-a2d31e465ec0
00:24:55 [fantasai]
db: for Bitcoin, would be 0.35% of emissions [??]
00:25:19 [AramZS]
Here's the NYT's article I think (not sure if this is the one) - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/09/03/climate/bitcoin-carbon-footprint-electricity.html
00:25:29 [fantasai]
db: But Bitcoin is one of the greenest verticals on the planet
00:25:54 [fantasai]
db: Bitcoin .. % renewable
00:26:03 [AramZS]
Here's a defended analysis of Bitcoin's carbon footprint - https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption/
00:26:14 [fantasai]
db: Bitcoin is 50-70% reneable
00:26:28 [fantasai]
db: One reason is that renewable is not timable
00:26:35 [fantasai]
db: and Bitcoin can use the excess at non-peak times
00:26:43 [fantasai]
db: Flare gas is a net negative carbon
00:26:59 [fantasai]
db: Bitcoin miners are going around, capping the stacks, and creating a net negative carbon emission
00:27:05 [fantasai]
db: by using electricity from these
00:27:18 [fantasai]
db: Bitcoin is 3x cleaner than average grid
00:27:27 [fantasai]
db: That gives you roughtly 0.045% of emissions
00:27:35 [AramZS]
Here's a published study that is part of the above's source, but notable enough to pull out. The abstract notes: "[we] estimate Bitcoin's e-waste and find that it adds up to 30.7 metric kilotons annually, per May 2021. This number is comparable to the amount of small IT and telecommunication equipment waste produced by a country like the Netherlands" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921344921005103?dgcid=author
00:27:43 [fantasai]
db: If we look even deeper, the majority of electricity used by Bitcoin over 50% is waste electricity
00:27:56 [fantasai]
db: 50-60% of electricity generated every year is wasted, because it can't be stored
00:28:05 [fantasai]
db: Bitcoin looks for these sources, because it's the cheapest
00:28:07 [AramZS]
It especially notes that many have "thus far ignored that Bitcoin miners cycle through a growing amount of short-lived hardware that could exacerbate the growth in global e-waste."
00:28:13 [fantasai]
db: On off-peak hours, they'll consume that electricity
00:28:21 [fantasai]
db: So after you lop off half the electricity being waste electricity
00:28:29 [fantasai]
db: end up with 0.0225% of emissions
00:28:33 [fantasai]
db: and that's net attributable
00:28:41 [fantasai]
db: This is what Bitcoin is actually adding
00:28:51 [tantek]
q?
00:29:01 [fantasai]
db: It wouldn't be fair to knock Bitcoin for using waste electricity, etc. Need to consider what is it actually adding to carbon emissions.
00:29:27 [fantasai]
tantek: OK, going to cut there at 5m. Don't want to spend 5min per article
00:29:37 [rgrant]
Ahh, but don't forget my link about about how poorly NYT uses its facts.
00:29:40 [fantasai]
tantek: A lot of the points you're making, to get to 100yrs from now, we have to survive the next 15
00:29:53 [db]
Bitcoin will be neutral or negative within 10-15 years
00:30:07 [fantasai]
tantek: arguments about Bitcoin folks connecting to unused sources of energy are similarly taken up by folks setting up data centers in general, for actual user demand
00:30:21 [fantasai]
tantek: how much of that energy could be used for general purpose Web, rather than just Bitcoin mining?
00:30:31 [fantasai]
tantek: IF data center used for Bitcoin not being used for other purposes
00:30:40 [fantasai]
tantek: lastly, push back on argument that Bitcoin is one of the greenest consumers
00:30:45 [fantasai]
tantek: first don't believe it's well-established
00:30:49 [db]
You can't build datacenters near volcanos
00:31:00 [db]
q+
00:31:07 [fantasai]
tantek: and there's also a lot of Bitcoin buying up renewables and driving up price for cities, etc.
00:31:16 [db]
This is a false 0-sum argument
00:31:16 [fantasai]
tantek: so it pushes other consumers to carbon-based sources
00:31:50 [fantasai]
tantek: Lastly it's easy to find examples of Bitcoin miners literally firing up new fossil fuel plants to power Bitcoin mining
00:31:53 [tantek]
ack rgrant
00:31:53 [Zakim]
rgrant, you wanted to suggest that a precautionary principle against using energy is not appropriate when human rights are at risk and to push back against web usage making Bitcoin
00:31:56 [Zakim]
... usage exponentially more harmful
00:32:23 [tantek]
ack jake_
00:32:33 [fantasai]
jake_: Glad to see work here happening
00:32:42 [fantasai]
jake_: I'm Jake Holland, chairing Multitask CG
00:32:52 [fantasai]
jake_: We believe sustainability is a benefit of trying to deploy multitask
00:32:53 [jake_]
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200305-why-your-internet-habits-are-not-as-clean-as-you-think
00:33:01 [fantasai]
jake_: One argument in chat is BBC writeup of study
00:33:30 [fantasai]
jake_: In the 2019 study, using the Bitcoin comparison, the numbers they had had Bitcoin at something like 15th of the amount of video used
00:33:38 [fantasai]
jake_: Video was coming in at 1% of total carbon emissions
00:33:48 [fantasai]
jake_: This is the number I'm trying to pull down with our work
00:33:59 [fantasai]
jake_: Many ? don't have to be in operation to ....
00:34:08 [fantasai]
jake_: If there is content sufficent to make use of
00:34:28 [fantasai]
jake_: But the day to day utilization, once it's there and deployed, ~20% of what's there, can rpobably be done with multitask
00:34:37 [fantasai]
jake_: especially when running DoD on carousel
00:34:46 [fantasai]
jake_: Not just about big live events, but they're why things break in the first place
00:34:56 [fantasai]
jake_: Multitask CG is new, founded in June
00:35:07 [fantasai]
jake_: In charter, I did go look for sustainability targetted groups, found 2 which I listed
00:35:27 [fantasai]
jake_: Web we can afford, and nother specifically about sustainability
00:35:32 [fantasai]
jake_: Is there an organized community trying to do this?
00:35:36 [fantasai]
jake_: Seemed pretty dead from the archives
00:35:52 [fantasai]
jake_: Other is, is there a way to leverage interest in these topics to promote the type of efficiency gains we want
00:36:00 [fantasai]
jake_: and to get more buy-in from a broader audience
00:36:07 [AramZS]
An assessment of multiple studies notes "the instant suspension of every project in the pipeline would make [a rise of global temperatures to] 2°C achievable only if accompanied by the decommissioning of one-fifth of all power plants running on fossil fuels (this estimate is as of 2018 – more years or decades of business-as-usual would raise the requirement)." - Pg 67 from "How to Blow Up a Pipeline" by Andreas Malm.
00:36:10 [fantasai]
jake_: It's been a bit of a struggle to get people to ake it seriously
00:36:17 [fantasai]
jake_: I work for Akamai, and doing work at IETF
00:36:31 [fantasai]
jake_: now trying to get into Web context, because Web video makes up such a large amount if Internet traffic
00:36:35 [fantasai]
jake_: What are the right next steps?
00:36:46 [fantasai]
jake_: Can I join forces with anyone who is interested in this?
00:36:53 [fantasai]
tantek: Definitely sympathize with that
00:37:03 [fantasai]
tantek: That's why I proposed this session.
00:37:15 [fantasai]
tantek: TAG is the closest thing to a home for this, because of the TAG Ethical Web Principle of sustainability
00:37:22 [AramZS]
q?
00:37:22 [fantasai]
tantek: some additional discussion on design principles
00:37:29 [AramZS]
q+
00:37:42 [fantasai]
tantek: I would love to see a Sustainability Interest Group or something similar, that could serve a function similar to PING for horizontal review
00:38:02 [AramZS]
+1 I like the idea of a review process for sustainability
00:38:09 [fantasai]
tantek: I don't know what next steps are for that, but talk to your AC rep, I believe they have the ability to kick off a proposal to make this an actual interest group similar to Privacy, Security, i18n, etc.
00:38:20 [fantasai]
tantek: And thanks for the background about Multitask, I didn't know about that
00:38:32 [tantek]
s/multitask/multicast
00:38:35 [fantasai]
jake_: We are meeting next Weds, if anyone interested we'll be giving an intro
00:38:47 [fantasai]
rgrant: Thanks for hosting this
00:38:51 [tantek]
q?
00:39:07 [fantasai]
rgrant: I would like to suggest a precautionary principle against using additional energy is the wrong metric and the wrong value, because it's in conflict when human rights are at risk
00:39:18 [fantasai]
rgrant: We have conflicting principles in the EWP
00:39:40 [fantasai]
rgrant: I think when there are conflicting principles, then most of us in a pinch would prefer to save a human life
00:39:58 [fantasai]
rgrant: I think as precautionary principle, if we say don't use extra energy, I think you mean we should not pollute additional carbon
00:40:00 [Wenjing]
Wenjing has joined #sustainability
00:40:11 [AramZS]
Note: Excess use of energy towards unneeded uses can threaten human rights as well, worth noting. See: https://apnews.com/article/iran-media-social-media-bitcoin-coronavirus-pandemic-6d1c703a7faa1f85b0f94011259ec63e
00:40:11 [fantasai]
rgrant: as Daniel pointed out, can use more electricity without extra emissions
00:40:22 [fantasai]
rgrant: but principle doesn't allow us to rank our values
00:40:33 [fantasai]
rgrant: that's one critical point against this idea that we should not use any additional energy
00:40:58 [tantek]
q?
00:41:00 [fantasai]
rgrant: other thing that this argument ignores is that the W3C adopting DID methods which are decentralized, and which may allow people to create DID methods on top of Bitcoin,
00:41:07 [fantasai]
rgrant: this will not change the demand for mining hash rate
00:41:11 [db]
Net zero or negative heating of homes/buildings: https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/north-vancouver-bitcoin-mining-heating-lonsdale-energy-corporation
00:41:12 [fantasai]
rgrant: it won't change the amount of carbon emitted
00:41:25 [fantasai]
rgrant: other than a theoretical possibility of additional demand communicated through transaction fees
00:41:33 [AramZS]
Worth noting that the "battery" argument is addressed here: https://www.ft.com/content/0448b44d-1d78-48f8-8ca8-6edae7976a5f
00:41:36 [fantasai]
rgrant: I've calculated what the carbon cost of a transaction in Bitcoin is
00:41:37 [db]
Net negative reduction of greenhouse gases through flare capture: https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news/2261931-bitcoin-miners-help-us-oil-producers-cut-flaring
00:41:47 [fantasai]
rgrant: this evening my calculation is it's about 285g of carbon
00:42:03 [db]
Average reduction in GHGs from flare capture:
00:42:04 [db]
Methan 98% CO2e 63% CO 95% VOC 100% NOx 89%
00:42:09 [fantasai]
rgrant: to relate, that's less than half of the average American hot shower given average temp of 112degF etc.
00:42:18 [db]
The levels of reduction are astounding, and simply cannot be ignored
00:42:26 [fantasai]
rgrant: making typical assumptions about sources of water/heat/etc
00:42:29 [rgrant]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oynOk_95jZRBWHfeuX_zdZ31C0j48vVU2EU2qDzj8DY
00:42:37 [fantasai]
rgrant: I've been pasting into this google document ehre
00:42:45 [fantasai]
rgrant: so please pardon incomplete state of doc
00:42:54 [fantasai]
rgrant: to wrap this up, who decides what is more valuable/
00:43:02 [fantasai]
s#/#?#
00:43:14 [fantasai]
rgrant: It is not W3C's place to say not to use a DID method that is truly decentralized
00:43:22 [db]
This is a great (albeit overly dramatic) recitation of the facts as they pertain to this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-7dMVcVWgc
00:43:24 [fantasai]
rgrant: those of us who did good work in DID space, think our method is the best
00:43:29 [Eric_Siow]
Q+
00:43:33 [fantasai]
rgrant: I think mine has some of the best decentralization characteristics
00:43:46 [fantasai]
rgrant: Many others only require a few key players to be compromised to compromise the method
00:43:55 [fantasai]
rgrant: controlled by governments etc.
00:43:59 [fantasai]
rgrant: I think decentralization is a real benefit
00:44:12 [fantasai]
rgrant: once you have real benefits, have to ask, is it appropriate to be working against this?
00:44:18 [fantasai]
rgrant: and not asking, well, what can I work towards?
00:44:23 [fantasai]
rgrant: I think that's not whataboutism
00:44:30 [db]
Bitcoin's path to net neutral/negative: https://nydig.com/bitcoin-net-zero/
00:44:35 [fantasai]
rgrant: I do think we need to dissolve our problems with nuclear energy
00:44:44 [fantasai]
rgrant: unfortunatly 80s movement was against that
00:44:53 [db]
74 pages, one of the most conclusive, data-rich academic investigations in history
00:44:54 [AramZS]
A good evenhanded article towards mining bitcoin with nuclear energy (at least imo) https://gizmodo.com/mining-bitcoin-using-nuclear-power-may-be-fine-actuall-1847825102
00:44:58 [fantasai]
rgrant: but I want to help, I want to help keep reporters alive in other countries who are reporting sources of pollution
00:45:05 [fantasai]
tantek: I understand motivation of wanting to help
00:45:13 [fantasai]
tantek: I think we have different perspective on some of these things
00:45:21 [fantasai]
tantek: I don't like "this principle vs other principle" antagonism
00:45:26 [fantasai]
tantek: esp for sustainability
00:45:36 [fantasai]
tantek: there's a lot of evidence that environmental harms directly harm human rights
00:45:54 [fantasai]
tantek: one of the best ways to help human rights is environmental improvements, because harms will be worse
00:45:56 [tantek]
https://github.com/w3ctag/ethical-web-principles/issues/52#issuecomment-931379281
00:46:21 [fantasai]
tantek: This is not whataboutism, but it is example of nirvana fallacy
00:46:29 [fantasai]
tantek: ...
00:46:40 [fantasai]
tantek: Not going to get argue about for or against human rights
00:46:45 [fantasai]
tantek: of course support human rights
00:46:50 [db]
We just need another system that solves the chronological oracle problem to have a safe basis for digital identity
00:46:56 [fantasai]
tantek: not follow that key to human rights is decentralization or any specific technology
00:47:02 [rgrant]
are you against decentralization?
00:47:03 [db]
Anyone have another system that solves the chronological oracle problem?
00:47:04 [tantek]
q?
00:47:19 [fantasai]
[fantasai points out time check]
00:47:28 [ota]
ota has joined #sustainability
00:47:29 [tantek]
ack Jay
00:47:40 [fantasai]
Jay: I'm happy to be in this discussion
00:47:49 [fantasai]
Jay: I think that because of the time I will be briefl
00:47:59 [fantasai]
Jay: I think we need as W3C, some kind of evidence-based
00:48:03 [fantasai]
Jay: sustainability white paper
00:48:07 [fantasai]
Jay: as a kind of horizontal issue
00:48:23 [fantasai]
Jay: because at this moment the blockchain PoW is similar one to consume the energy
00:48:32 [fantasai]
Jay: but each technology also consumes energy for computing
00:48:38 [fantasai]
Jay: So in that sense, how to think of that issue?
00:48:43 [AramZS]
A good paper here on the basis for understanding the questions of justice that come with "
00:48:49 [fantasai]
Jay: We need a common understanding for sustainability at W3C
00:48:53 [fantasai]
Jay: To do so we need evidence
00:48:55 [AramZS]
environmental disorganization - https://academic.oup.com/bjc/article/53/6/997/418934
00:48:59 [tantek]
aside: on the cost of a bitcoin transaction: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/sep/17/waste-from-one-bitcoin-transaction-like-binning-two-iphones
00:49:09 [fantasai]
Jay: If we can share such a white paper, it will be easy to understand the ?
00:49:15 [fantasai]
Jay: So my proposal is to generate a white paper
00:49:18 [fantasai]
tantek: excellent proposal
00:49:23 [tantek]
q?
00:49:25 [tantek]
ack Jeff
00:49:41 [fantasai]
jeff: As background, I think we're conflating 2 topics here
00:49:47 [fantasai]
jeff: One is do we need to focus on sustainability
00:49:56 [fantasai]
jeff: Second topic is question around Bitcoin and DiDs
00:50:04 [fantasai]
jeff: want to keep separate
00:50:13 [fantasai]
jeff: On first topic, want to give tantek credit for raising this at a high level
00:50:19 [fantasai]
jeff: I think this is challenge of our generation and next several
00:50:30 [fantasai]
jeff: Given our values, I think it's embarassing we don't have such a focus
00:50:38 [fantasai]
jeff: so +1 to idea of making that a stronger focus within W3C
00:50:52 [fantasai]
jeff: But second topic raised, I think those illustrate some of the challenges of raising the topic
00:50:58 [fantasai]
jeff: Different ppl have different points of view
00:51:05 [fantasai]
jeff: Daniel raised the perspective about what's net attributable
00:51:13 [fantasai]
jeff: and rgrant raised issue of human rights and tradeoffs
00:51:24 [fantasai]
jeff: We depth need to be able to reason well about this topic
00:51:30 [fantasai]
jeff: Suggestion of IG might be a good approach
00:51:37 [fantasai]
jeff: We also need to build the expertise within our community
00:51:49 [fantasai]
jeff: tantek raised examples of other values-based work like privacy, i18n, accessibility
00:51:59 [fantasai]
jeff: It's taken years to build that expertise in our community
00:51:59 [tantek]
q?
00:52:06 [tantek]
ack jyasskin
00:52:06 [fantasai]
jeff: so how do we build that expertise for sustainability?
00:52:17 [fantasai]
jyasskin: Jeffrey Yasskin, Google Chrome
00:52:30 [fantasai]
jyasskin: Agree with Jeff it would be useful to have sustainability principles and some kind of review for proposals in general
00:53:02 [fantasai]
jyasskin: I generally agree with Tantek. Using cryptocurrency examples and DID as an example helps us show what we need to do to address sustainability
00:53:12 [fantasai]
jyasskin: I agree with Tantek that these tech are net bad
00:53:17 [db]
All I have done is 200 hours of research, but I guess maybe others have done more
00:53:25 [fantasai]
jyasskin: but we need to evaluate all technology, not just Bitcoin
00:53:35 [fantasai]
jyasskin: not just ones we pay the most attention to
00:53:39 [fantasai]
jyasskin: but be more objective about it
00:53:53 [fantasai]
jyasskin: and let ppl negotiate and discuss and come to consensus about what the impacts actually are
00:53:58 [fantasai]
jyasskin: 2 aspects to consider
00:54:01 [jeff]
[db, I was discounting your research, I was only suggesting that we need a place for people to share and talk about their different perspectives.]
00:54:03 [fantasai]
jyasskin: There's choices in how to accomplish a goal
00:54:09 [jeff]
s/was/wasn't/
00:54:13 [fantasai]
jyasskin: ? and ? both have crypto and non-crypto methods
00:54:19 [fantasai]
jyasskin: We can compare those methods
00:54:36 [fantasai]
jyasskin: Lots of operations onto a main chain transaction
00:54:38 [fantasai]
jyasskin: ...
00:54:43 [db]
Nice to see someone talking about the details here!
00:54:43 [fantasai]
jyasskin: can write in sustainability review how they compare
00:54:46 [tantek]
s/? and ?/decentralized identifiers and verifiable credentials/
00:54:49 [db]
Kudos
00:54:56 [fantasai]
jyasskin: Currently Bitcoin is small wrt financial transactions
00:55:07 [fantasai]
jyasskin: scaling up to all financial transactions would scale up, but that's not linear
00:55:11 [fantasai]
jyasskin: would have to think about how we can measure
00:55:16 [fantasai]
jyasskin: not something we can do in TPAC side session
00:55:21 [rgrant]
no, carbon impact does not increase at all if more Bitcoin transactions occur. this is factually wrong.
00:55:25 [fantasai]
jyasskin: Something needs to be done via consensus process into a specification
00:55:26 [tantek]
q?
00:55:32 [tantek]
ack Ralph
00:55:32 [Zakim]
Ralph, you wanted to ask how we weigh deployed tech vs new tech
00:55:42 [fantasai]
Ralph: Another topic for this future CG or IG
00:55:51 [fantasai]
Ralph: a lot of industries have benefit of planned obsolescence
00:55:55 [db]
Good points jyasskin - and to put an explanation point on it: https://www.newsweek.com/bitcoin-mining-track-consume-worlds-energy-2020-744036
00:56:02 [fantasai]
Ralph: thinks get thrown away and re-implemented after awhile
00:56:12 [fantasai]
Ralph: On the Web we don't like to lose access to content that has been published
00:56:12 [db]
Turns out we haven't used all the world's electricity....
00:56:28 [fantasai]
Ralph: but I wonder, how do we avoid the problem of grandfathering all the resource-expensive stuff we've already done
00:56:35 [fantasai]
Ralph: while we're evaluating the benefit of a new technology?
00:56:41 [tantek]
ack AramZS
00:56:42 [fantasai]
Ralph: just throwing out that question, can't answer today
00:56:57 [fantasai]
AramZS: I've been pasting links from what you mentioned and from my own sources
00:57:09 [fantasai]
AramZS: Most studies show we're on path of 2 deg C increase in global temp
00:57:19 [fantasai]
AramZS: We can talk about utilization of existing power grids and batteries, etc.
00:57:27 [fantasai]
AramZS: But it's not just about not increasing overall use
00:57:32 [fantasai]
AramZS: but also about decreasing our use
00:57:37 [fantasai]
AramZS: It's not only important for climate change
00:57:44 [fantasai]
AramZS: but also for human rights issues
00:57:54 [fantasai]
AramZS: Much higher impact on global south in a warmer, more polluted world
00:57:58 [fantasai]
AramZS: so that puts some urgency towards this
00:58:05 [fantasai]
AramZS: So I think this is a great idea
00:58:08 [fantasai]
AramZS: Should reduce power usage
00:58:16 [fantasai]
AramZS: Even if uses minimal power, if can do less power, should do so
00:58:28 [fantasai]
AramZS: And then have to look at, is it worthwhile to do this thing at all?
00:58:37 [fantasai]
AramZS: Have a conversation, review, and consensus
00:58:49 [fantasai]
AramZS: Not a lot of time, and issue is urgent, and increasingly compounded
00:59:03 [tantek]
ack Eric_Siow
00:59:05 [fantasai]
tantek: Yes, shouldn't let perfect be enemy of the good
00:59:11 [fantasai]
Eric_Siow: Eric Siow from Intel
00:59:17 [fantasai]
Eric_Siow: AC rep and on Advisory Board as well
00:59:25 [fantasai]
Eric_Siow: Attending call because I wanted to listen to discussion here
00:59:33 [fantasai]
Eric_Siow: because I'm anticipating the DID debate to continue to escalate
00:59:41 [fantasai]
Eric_Siow: and at some point may reach W3C Council for debate
00:59:43 [tantek]
zakim, close the queue
00:59:43 [Zakim]
ok, tantek, the speaker queue is closed
00:59:46 [fantasai]
Eric_Siow: I really wanted to get myself educated here
00:59:56 [fantasai]
Eric_Siow: I'm going to share with all of you the questions I have in my mind
01:00:04 [fantasai]
Eric_Siow: So as a group we can figure out how we move towards resolving those questions
01:00:12 [fantasai]
Eric_Siow: I hear statistics thrown around from both sides
01:00:20 [fantasai]
Eric_Siow: My concern is that both sides are going to ignore the other side's argument
01:00:38 [fantasai]
Eric_Siow: As a group, how do we reach some kind of objective meausre, where we look at the data and make a decision based on objective arguments?
01:00:38 [db]
Love the data, totally agree, Eric
01:01:03 [fantasai]
Eric_Siow: Number 2, want to caution all of us that we're so focused on Bitcoin or proof of work, that we ignore the other methods and blockchain tech, like proof of stake, that consume less energy
01:01:13 [db]
Deterministic chronological oracles are the gold standard
01:01:13 [fantasai]
Eric_Siow: So let's not conflate that when discussing sustainability and DID
01:01:34 [fantasai]
Eric_Siow: Another question in my mind, when you look at W3C standards, they're really Recommendations with support from Members to implement them
01:01:43 [db]
Subjective chronological oracles unfortunately prone to centralization and oligarchical capture
01:01:44 [fantasai]
Eric_Siow: Unlike 3GPP that has mandatory features that everyone has to comply with for interop
01:02:06 [fantasai]
Eric_Siow: My concern is, whether we standardize or not, how effective would it be in terms of bringing a change in behavior
01:02:12 [fantasai]
Eric_Siow: wrt Bitcoin?
01:02:19 [fantasai]
Eric_Siow: I don't have an answer, but these are my questions
01:02:44 [rgrant]
on the point of whether did:btcr and did:ion will affect bitcoin mining, it definitely will not. it's a great question to ask!
01:02:49 [fantasai]
tantek: OK, we're over time now, so closing the meeting
01:02:56 [AramZS]
To be clear, I'm not just focused on bitcoin, though it is def sticking its neck out among the issues. There are many uses of energy that need to be examined and potentially addressed.
01:03:59 [db]
+1
01:04:04 [AramZS]
+1
01:04:04 [jake_]
+1, the DID debate seems like a bit of a red herring to me. It would be great to get to proof of stake instead, and worth doing, but short of a more compelling analysis than the ny times on the harm caused, DID isn't the best focus to me.
01:04:35 [jake_]
but also, like Jeff said, +1 to raising sustainability :_
01:04:36 [jake_]
:)
01:04:41 [rgrant]
to restate again: you're worried about carbon pollution, not energy usage.
01:05:11 [fantasai]
Topic: End
01:05:20 [fantasai]
s/End/End of Session
01:05:25 [db]
I can talk about POS vs POW if folks are curious
01:05:33 [jyasskin]
jake_: Proof of stake is definitely more environmentally friendly, but I'm worried about its implications on governance. It's literally rule-by-the-rich, right?
01:05:42 [db]
there are some issues in there that lead to some unfortunate issues
01:05:50 [db]
*problems in there
01:06:42 [rgrant]
thanks Eric, your perspective as a decision maker is helpful for us to figure out how to communicate..
01:06:43 [fantasai]
[Eric emphasizes that we need to apply consistency ]
01:08:03 [AramZS]
I understand your issue with using energy as a proxy for pollution, but considering that we do not have access to information about the energy source when we are executing code that consumes it (at least within the context of the type of proposals in the w3) I think it makes the most useful proxy for how we analyze proposals.
01:08:28 [jyasskin]
rgrant: On how carbon intensity scales with transaction count, my impression is that the price of resources wasted on mining scales with the total transaction fees. In practice, individual transaction fees seem to have increased as total transactions increased, which makes me worry that total energy use will scale faster than linearly as more people adopt the system.
01:08:47 [db]
sorry
01:09:02 [jyasskin]
rgrant: I have to run off to dinner now, but I'd love to see an analysis of that as part of DID Method standardization.
01:09:24 [jake_]
It's outside my expertise, really, but I thought proof of stake was more putting up a risk for going against consensus. I'm not sure we escape rule-by-the-rich no matter what we do.
01:09:59 [rgrant]
jyasskin: feel free to pm me an email address.
01:10:22 [db]
It's all the heavy iframe's fault
01:10:23 [db]
lol
01:10:43 [AramZS]
The energy we are producing now is already too much. As I noted above, we would have to decommission 1/5th of power plants running on fossil fuels (according to one estimate) to reach 2c.
01:10:52 [AramZS]
freakin iframes man! :D
01:13:09 [AramZS]
Do we need to tell the agent to record the minutes or will it do it by itself?
01:13:35 [jake_]
https://www.w3.org/community/wwca/
01:13:49 [jake_]
https://www.w3.org/community/webeco/
01:15:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/19-sustainability-minutes.html fantasai
01:16:23 [tantek]
tantek has changed the topic to: https://web-eur.cvent.com/hub/events/2b77fe3d-2536-467d-b71b-969b2e6419b5/sessions/1081daea-d386-47d0-8c51-f7f876ec0288
01:16:33 [rgrant]
jyasskin: resources are not wasted. people find value in participation in a truly decentralized system.
01:17:11 [fantasai]
[discussion of chartering an s12y group]
01:17:24 [fantasai]
[Eric notes that group needs to have an impact, not just talk about stuff]
01:18:14 [rgrant]
jyasskin: there's no evidence that mining will grow faster than linearly with a particular transaction fee market.
01:18:21 [fantasai]
present+
01:18:23 [rgrant]
present+
01:18:33 [fantasai]
present+ db
01:18:42 [gerald]
zakim, who is here?
01:18:42 [Zakim]
Present: jeff, Jay, tantek, plh, jyasskin, AramZS, marie_s, kirkwood, fantasai, rgrant, db
01:18:45 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ota, Wenjing, rgrant, naomi, jake_, bdekoz, Eric_Siow, AramZS, kirkwood, plh, marie_s, Jay, gerald, tantek, Zakim, takio, fantasai, jeff, jyasskin, dietrich_, RRSAgent
01:18:49 [gerald]
present+ Gerald
01:18:52 [jake_]
present+
01:18:56 [naomi]
present+
01:19:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/19-sustainability-minutes.html fantasai
01:19:08 [tantek]
present+ jeff
01:19:11 [tantek]
present+ Jay
01:19:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/19-sustainability-minutes.html fantasai
01:19:49 [rgrant]
jyasskin: one reason that it would not is that the subsidy may be higher than demand for transaction fees. we see today that some transactions are getting through on the lowest transaction fee possible (1 sat/vbyte). when subsidy is gone, hashrate may decrease.
01:22:04 [Ralph]
Ralph has joined #sustainability
01:31:43 [tantek]
Title: Environmental Concerns and Sustainability (s12y) of Web Technologies
01:31:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/19-sustainability-minutes.html tantek
01:35:49 [tantek]
Meeting: Environmental Concerns and Sustainability (s12y) of Web Technologies
01:35:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/19-sustainability-minutes.html tantek
01:36:34 [tantek]
present+ Eric_Siow
01:38:50 [tantek]
present+ Ralph
01:39:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/19-sustainability-minutes.html tantek
02:28:29 [jeff]
jeff has joined #sustainability
02:39:26 [tantek]
present+ bdekoz,Michael Champion
02:39:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/19-sustainability-minutes.html tantek
04:41:15 [naomi]
naomi has joined #Sustainability
04:44:16 [tantek]
s/makign/making
04:46:03 [tantek]
s/amoutn/amount
04:48:24 [tantek]
s/woudl/would
05:03:25 [tantek]
s/Multitask/Multicast/g
05:03:36 [tantek]
s/multitask/multicast/g
05:03:57 [tantek]
s/rpobably/probably
05:08:03 [tantek]
s/and nother/and another
05:09:30 [tantek]
s/to ake it/to take it
05:09:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/19-sustainability-minutes.html tantek
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Zakim has left #sustainability
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dom has joined #sustainability
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naomi has joined #Sustainability
06:07:04 [dom]
RRSAgent, bye
06:07:04 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items