23:19:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub
23:19:53 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/14-epub-irc
23:19:56 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
23:19:56 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), dauwhe
23:20:05 <dauwhe> Meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telecon
23:20:09 <dauwhe> Chair: dauwhe
23:48:57 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #epub
23:57:33 <mgarrish> mgarrish has joined #epub
23:58:00 <toshiakikoike> toshiakikoike has joined #epub
23:58:10 <toshiakikoike> present+
23:58:28 <wendyreid> present+
23:58:58 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #epub
23:59:35 <MasakazuKitahara> MasakazuKitahara has joined #epub
23:59:41 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
23:59:47 <MattChan> MattChan has joined #epub
00:00:03 <shiestyle> present+
00:00:10 <MattChan> present+
00:00:42 <mgarrish> present+
00:01:05 <duga> duga has joined #epub
00:01:14 <duga> present+
00:02:12 <MattChan> scribe+
00:03:35 <MattChan> dauwhe: there is a new member of the working group. You can introduce yourself now if you wish.
00:04:07 <MattChan> johnr: hello. Vicky is our new Apple group rep.
00:04:36 <MattChan> Vicky: I work on exporting to epub from pages. Fun thing about myself is that I like to play violin.
00:04:43 <MattChan> TOPIC: Publication of Structural Semantics Vocabulary as Working Group Note
00:04:53 <MattChan> dauwhe: last week we resolved on separating SSV into a wg note
00:05:19 <MattChan> ... we just need a formal resolution to publish it, and to use echidna
00:06:27 <wendyreid> Proposed: Publish the SSV as a working group note, using ECHIDNA, using the short name "epub-ssv"
00:06:53 <Victoria> Victoria has joined #epub
00:06:56 <MattChan> murata: the note in Ivan's message doesn't work, so I can't see the note
00:07:16 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/blob/main/epub33/ssv/index.html
00:07:19 <MattChan> s/note in/link in
00:07:28 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/ssv/
00:08:30 <dauwhe> +1
00:08:33 <wendyreid> +1
00:08:35 <MattChan> +1
00:08:40 <mgarrish> +1
00:08:42 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:08:45 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
00:09:20 <shiestyle> +1
00:09:33 <MattChan> murata: does this document have to do with the IMS Global Consortium? Do they need to see this?
00:09:46 <MattChan> mgarrish: no, i think this originally came from DAISY
00:10:05 <MattChan> murata: what about the content under sec. 10?
00:10:21 <MattChan> mgarrish: this is all stuff that came from us, we don't have dependence on any other party
00:10:33 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Publish the SSV as a working group note, using ECHIDNA, using the short name "epub-ssv"
00:11:01 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1061
00:11:06 <MattChan> TOPIC: Continue the discussion of iFrames
00:11:29 <MURATA> MURATA has joined #epub
00:11:31 <MattChan> dauwhe: this is the issue of using iframes to bring in external content (e.g. youtube videos) into epub
00:11:35 <MURATA> +present
00:11:37 <dauwhe> q?
00:11:38 <duga> +1
00:11:48 <MattChan> ... there's been fair amount of discussion on github since the last meeting
00:11:52 <duga> q+
00:12:04 <MattChan> ... there seems to be general sense that this is quite a complex issue esp. re. security and privacy
00:12:10 <dauwhe> ack duga
00:12:12 <jroque_> jroque_ has joined #epub
00:12:15 <MattChan> ... maybe not something we want to tackle late in epub 3.3
00:12:47 <MattChan> duga: we need to focus on the issue, which is whether it is legal to do this in the spec. Answer seems to be no.
00:13:09 <MattChan> ... external resources must be video, audio, font, or something loaded by a script
00:13:42 <MattChan> ... longer answer of whether we should allow it, is it testable... those are all questions for another version of the epub spec
00:13:54 <dauwhe> q+
00:14:26 <MattChan> ... including videos in the epub zip does run up against size constraints, and maybe iframes are the solution, but we don't need to decide that now
00:14:53 <MattChan> ... Ivan raised a potential testing issue over in github, and we could maybe take that up
00:14:59 <MURATA> +1
00:15:02 <mgarrish> q+
00:15:06 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
00:15:11 <MattChan> ... but we can resolve now that it is not legal to embed a youtube video via iframe
00:15:23 <MattChan> dauwhe: last month we had our first meeting with PING about epub
00:15:36 <MattChan> ... one of the things they are most wary of is remote resources
00:15:50 <dauwhe> ack mg
00:16:02 <MattChan> ... so i'd rather not open another vector this late in a revision
00:16:25 <MattChan> mgarrish: ditto, this hits on issues across the board related to horizontal review. Even a11y.
00:16:43 <MattChan> ... this whole blurring of epub and the web is a little frightening at this stage
00:16:59 <MattChan> ... this needs to be more well thought out
00:17:22 <dauwhe> q+
00:17:27 <duga> q+
00:17:29 <MattChan> ... I'd rather try to clamp down our foreign resource allowance to specific elements (e.g. <video>, <audio>)
00:17:38 <MattChan> ... this could help us with our security review too
00:17:45 <wendyreid> ack dauwhe
00:18:03 <MattChan> dauwhe: you were saying you could only use remote video via the <video> element itself
00:18:40 <wendyreid> ack duga
00:18:41 <MattChan> mgarrish: right, and I'm sure most people use remote resources this way anyway
00:18:42 <dauwhe> ack du
00:19:20 <MattChan> duga: does <object> still exist? If so, you could put a video in <object>, and then testability becomes an issue again
00:19:51 <MattChan> mgarrish: does <object> work for video though? Would you still get the player controls?
00:20:07 <MattChan> duga: I haven't seen it used that way, just a weird edge case
00:20:23 <MattChan> dauwhe: <object> is still in the spec
00:20:45 <dauwhe> q?
00:20:56 <shiestyle> q+
00:21:06 <dauwhe> ack sh
00:21:19 <MattChan> duga: I don't have a problem with limiting external videos to the <video> tag, makes things simpler (especially since we don't define codecs for videos)
00:21:57 <MattChan> shiestyle: i wouldn't recommend opening the spec to enhancements in external resources now
00:22:29 <MattChan> dauwhe: seems like we're talking about a feature request, in which case we could defer this to a future revision
00:22:49 <MattChan> ... let's open a new issue about the idea of tying remote resources to the context of particular elements
00:23:10 <MURATA> +1
00:23:34 <duga> q+
00:23:36 <wendyreid> Proposed: Defer issue 1061 as a feature request, open new issue addressing remote resources and elements like <video>
00:23:40 <mgarrish> +1
00:23:45 <dauwhe> ack du
00:24:10 <wendyreid> +1
00:24:11 <shiestyle> +1
00:24:14 <MattChan> duga: it's a little weird to turn this into a feature request, because the original issue was just asking for clarification on whether or not it was legal to do the youtube embedding thing
00:24:16 <duga> +1
00:24:24 <MattChan> dauwhe: the comments kind of made it into a feature request
00:24:26 <dauwhe> +1
00:24:28 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:24:30 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
00:24:39 <MattChan> +1
00:24:45 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Defer issue 1061 as a feature request, open new issue addressing remote resources and elements like <video>
00:24:45 <MURATA> +1
00:24:59 <jroque_> +1
00:25:34 <MattChan> TOPIC: Update on status of horizontal reviews
00:25:50 <MattChan> dauwhe: just checking status, given that we hope to go to CR in the not too distant future
00:26:04 <MattChan> ... basically we need horizontal review from 4 different groups
00:27:06 <MattChan> ... PING (privacy) - we've started this, issue in their github asking for review, initial meeting with them, joint meeting with them during TPAC, and we don't yet have any formal issue from them about our spec (but they do have concerns about remote resources, larger issue of user expectations about privacy for ebooks)
00:27:47 <MattChan> ... users may have different expectations than for the web in general, and techniques used in web browsers to help user understand the source of content, who might be watching, and most of those browser affordances are missing from epub
00:28:15 <MattChan> ... TAG (technical architecture group) - we've not yet requested formal review from them
00:28:43 <MattChan> ... usually the TAG wants an explainer for the spec, but our spec is 20 years old. Hopefully the overview in the spec will suffice for this purpose
00:28:57 <MattChan> ... epub is a heavy user of web tech but does not exist on the web, per se, so we'll see
00:29:32 <MattChan> ... i18n (internationalization) - we have issues from them, but most have been resolved.
00:29:49 <MattChan> wendyreid: not sure if they've approved us, but I don't think we have any more issues here
00:30:10 <MattChan> ... i'm least worried about this horizontal review
00:30:20 <MattChan> dauwhe: this has been a focus of epub 3 all along, so yes
00:31:02 <MattChan> ... APA (a11y) - I didn't see anything on github from their formal review. But we've also had quite a few rounds of comments, and there is a meeting scheduled with them during TPAC?
00:31:17 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes, its scheduled for the 28th 10AM Boston (14 UTC)
00:31:59 <MattChan> mgarrish: yes, that's basically the status. Avneesh has been coordinating re. the a11y part of spec
00:32:37 <MattChan> dauwhe: epub has been highly focused on a11y from its own perspective since the beginning
00:32:37 <MURATA> +q
00:32:54 <dauwhe> ack MU
00:32:56 <MattChan> mgarrish: we work with them on a bunch of stuff, so i'm not concerned
00:33:44 <MattChan> MURATA: on behalf of JP DAISY consortium I wrote a report about ruby issues, but as far as the spec is concerned nothing will change
00:34:18 <MattChan> dauwhe: i think there's still work on ruby going on in general
00:34:24 <dauwhe> q?
00:35:13 <MattChan> wendyreid: we'll also have a joint meeting with PING on Oct 26th 15 UTC (11AM Boston, 8AM west coast)
00:35:30 <MattChan> ... invites should be coming around shortly
00:35:39 <MattChan> TOPIC: AOB?
00:35:59 <MattChan> dauwhe: i would remind everyone that our 2 most important things right now are the horizontal reviews and the testing
00:36:07 <MattChan> ... I've been adding to the tests
00:36:21 <MattChan> ... and please help if you can, it's really important
00:36:43 <MattChan> ... we're trying to test every assertion in the spec and make the spec better that way
00:37:19 <MattChan> wendyreid: one meeting we are having during TPAC week (Oct 25th) is that we're holding a session called epub next
00:37:33 <MattChan> ... we're trying to get as many publishing stakeholders together as we can
00:37:48 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/447c6288-6cb9-4134-86c0-b419edd0cea3
00:37:52 <MattChan> ... will the next thing be epub 4, or something else?
00:38:04 <MattChan> ... WG members will see the invite, please come
00:38:29 <MattChan> ... but also, if you know anything not a member of the W3C but who is interested in this space, please pass along the word
00:38:39 <MattChan> s/anything not/anyone not
00:38:49 <MattChan> ... this is 27th 9AM Boston (13 UTC)
00:39:45 <MattChan> dauwhe: okay, that's it. Thanks everyone for coming. We'll talk next week!
00:39:48 <dauwhe> zakim, end meeting
00:39:48 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been toshiakikoike, wendyreid, MasakazuKitahara, shiestyle, MattChan, mgarrish, duga, present
00:39:50 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
00:39:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/14-epub-minutes.html Zakim
00:39:53 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, dauwhe; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
00:39:57 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub
00:40:16 <dauwhe> RRSAgent: bye
00:40:16 <RRSAgent> I see no action items