IRC log of aria on 2021-10-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:40:49 [RRSAgent]

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/14-aria-irc

16:40:51 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, make logs Public

16:40:53 [Zakim]

please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn

16:40:53 [jamesn]

meeting: ARIA WG

16:40:59 [jamesn]

chair: JamesNurthen

16:42:01 [jamesn]

regrets: PeterKrautzberger StefanSchnabel MarkMcCarthy JaunitaGeorge

16:43:18 [jamesn]

agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3iTXLO7)

16:43:18 [jamesn]

agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3lCogcz)

16:43:18 [jamesn]

agenda+ [TPAC 2021](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1482)

16:43:18 [jamesn]

- Please register https://www.w3.org/2021/10/TPAC/#participation

16:43:18 [jamesn]

- ARIA sessions Scheduled Thursday Oct 28 - (1 hour) 7am Pacific / 10am Eastern & (2 hours) 9am Pacific / noon Eastern

16:43:19 [jamesn]

agenda+ Charter License Changes. Preparing CFC for change to Software and Document license.

16:43:19 [jamesn]

agenda+ [Updating ARIA 1.2 due to IDL implementations (exit and re-enter CR?)](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1598)

16:43:19 [jamesn]

agenda+ [clarify img naming steps](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/322)

16:43:19 [jamesn]

agenda+ [Spec is unclear on aria-invalid="spelling" | "grammar" uses](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/989)

16:43:20 [jamesn]

agenda+ [Add figcaption to computation?](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/325)

17:00:29 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

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17:00:35 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

present+

17:01:53 [harris]

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17:03:07 [MichaelC]

https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/1d223877-730c-446f-bfa9-2e9222902112/20211014T130000

17:04:31 [siri]

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17:04:55 [IrfanA]

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17:05:01 [IrfanA]

present+

17:05:36 [Jemma]

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17:05:44 [joanie]

present+ Joanmarie_Diggs

17:05:59 [harris]

present+

17:06:07 [Jemma]

present+

17:06:16 [jamesn]

present+

17:06:46 [cyns]

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17:06:55 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

scribe: WilliamTennisNFCU

17:07:08 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

zakim, next item

17:07:08 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3iTXLO7) -- taken up [from jamesn]

17:07:44 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: agrees

17:08:10 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

James Craig: could happen in 1.2

17:11:27 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

Jamesn: Change defines but more work needs to be done on the indicates as its more nuanced

17:12:12 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

zakim, next item

17:12:12 [Zakim]

agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3lCogcz) -- taken up [from jamesn]

17:12:44 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: no new PRs asks for anyone to bring forward

17:12:58 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: moving on

17:13:09 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

zakim, close this item

17:13:09 [Zakim]

agendum 2 closed

17:13:10 [Zakim]

I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

17:13:10 [Zakim]

3. [TPAC 2021](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1482) [from jamesn]

17:13:17 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

zakim, next item

17:13:17 [Zakim]

agendum 3 -- [TPAC 2021](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1482) -- taken up [from jamesn]

17:13:33 [jcraig]

s/could happen in 1.2/this change could happen in 1.2, but the related issue (changing "Indicates" to "Enumerates") would be dependent upon our decision in the related IDL discussion./

17:13:35 [jamesn]

- Please register https://www.w3.org/2021/10/TPAC/#participation

17:13:51 [jamesn]

- ARIA sessions Scheduled Thursday Oct 28 - (1 hour) 7am Pacific / 10am Eastern & (2 hours) 9am Pacific / noon Eastern

17:14:51 [jcraig]

s/Change defines but more work needs to be done on the indicates as its more nuanced/Based on jamesn's suggestion, I'll make the one-word edit, and raise the related definition change as a new issue (comments made in ARIA #1625)/

17:16:55 [IrfanA]

q+

17:17:18 [joanie]

q+ To ask if these will be added to the ARIA WG meeting calendar

17:17:26 [joanie]

q-

17:19:54 [jamesn]

https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1482

17:20:10 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

cyns: proposing ideas for TPAC discussions on issue 1482

17:21:03 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: we could run some more meetings if these are not proposed as topics

17:21:22 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: i will not be available to run them but someone else could

17:22:06 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

cyns: will propose a time/date for these meetings

17:22:33 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

cyns: Canvas seems stable at the moment

17:23:55 [IrfanA]

q-

17:25:16 [IrfanA]

AT https://github.com/w3c/pronunciation/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3AAT

17:25:19 [IrfanA]

Browsers https://github.com/w3c/pronunciation/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3ABrowsers

17:25:29 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

janina sajka: has a proposed discussion on how content is pronounced and old technology that is bringing challenges

17:25:46 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: propose a time/date

17:26:24 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: please be concious of timezones with scheduling

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17:27:02 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: AT vendors would need to be invlved for various countries and continents

17:27:59 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: propose the schedule in a github issue so that various companies can have their input on the date/time

17:29:22 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

ali irfan: need people from browsers and AT vendors

17:30:29 [IrfanA]

s/ali irfan/ IrfanA

17:31:01 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

James Craig: while we have the AT people there is there room for a cross group meeting

17:31:27 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

IrfanA: need specific people from the aria group

17:32:01 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

janina sajka: will send specific invites to individuals

17:32:43 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

janina sajka: difficulty registering to TPAC

17:32:46 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

james

17:33:02 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: difficulties may be intermittent

17:33:10 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

zakim, next item

17:33:10 [Zakim]

agendum 4 -- Charter License Changes. Preparing CFC for change to Software and Document license. -- taken up [from jamesn]

17:34:09 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: In the issue with our charter there are 3 votes of support for changing to new license

17:34:22 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: objections?

17:35:38 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: no objections

17:36:21 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: this will goto charter review and objections may be heard there

17:36:32 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

zakim, next item

17:36:32 [Zakim]

agendum 5 -- [Updating ARIA 1.2 due to IDL implementations (exit and re-enter CR?)](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1598) -- taken up [from jamesn]

17:36:56 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: there have been a few updates to this

17:37:16 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

james craig: i had not seen the comments

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17:38:04 [Matt_King]

present+

17:38:05 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jcraig: there may be an implementation issue here

17:38:46 [jcraig]

From #1598 Option 1 "Spec could state that the nullable enumerated attributes reflect (HTML definition), and the other nullable attributes, ~"Return the value of the attribute if present, or null otherwise." Downside to this path is that none of the implementations match the enumerated attributes IDL now, so those would need to be removed from the PR, or ARIA 1.2 CR would need to wait on two implementations for the enumerated validations.

17:38:46 [jcraig]

Note: validation for default missing value and default invalid value is currently handled by the backing accessibility implementation in the engines, and not by the IDL implementation."

17:38:47 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jcraig: option1: would seem to be the best solution. JC will describe

17:39:09 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: option1 still has the same issue though?

17:39:36 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jcraig: same issue but less overall issues

17:40:14 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: it might not be fewer issues than with option2

17:40:35 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jcraig: enumerated ones would be easier, just remove the question mark

17:40:54 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jcraig: for non enumerated we don't have a logic way of specing that

17:42:50 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jcraig and cyns get into technical discussion around empty vs nullable values

17:43:47 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: there are nuances with empty and nullable in aria 1.3 for aria-desrcribed-by

17:44:26 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: in option 1 & 2 there will be issues with that and the algorith to work around it would need to be defined

17:44:41 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

^ jcraig

17:44:54 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: we have an algorith already

17:45:40 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jcraig: there is still a logic hole but it may have been addressed, looking it up

17:46:42 [jcraig]

https://w3c.github.io/aria/#idl_attr_disambiguation

17:46:44 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

cyns: good idea or bad idea? what if we gave a default value of null?

17:47:54 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jcraig: sections define linking patterns and gives it a format and there are exceptions to that format but we could possibly modify some sections to fit the scheme better

17:48:36 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: this section is normative

17:48:55 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jcraig: i will respond to the comments

17:49:49 [jamesn]

agenda?

17:49:53 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: anything else to add?

17:51:07 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: put a link to the meeting in the issue to elicit a response as no direct contacts exist to those that need to attend

17:51:45 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

zakim, next item

17:51:45 [Zakim]

agendum 6 -- [clarify img naming steps](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/322) -- taken up [from jamesn]

17:52:51 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

scott ohara: drops title attribute if alt name is empty

17:53:52 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

scott ohara: firefox does not want to drop the title

17:54:28 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

scott ohara: chromium and firefox are conflicting on this

17:55:15 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

matt king: is there any data we could use to help with this?

17:55:52 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

matt king: this has been communicated for years that this is what empty alt text means

17:56:20 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

matt king: trying to think of a real world case of needing a title on a decorative image

17:56:27 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: not needed

17:57:04 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

matt king: let's get a consensus on this issue

17:57:06 [jcraig]

q+ to ask for review assignment and to mention the priorities of constituents

17:58:49 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

scott ohara and aaron leventhal discuss the nuances between chromium and firefox's level of exposure of the title and description of the image

17:59:22 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

matt king: we should align the experiences across the browsers if possible

18:00:22 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

discussion around author error and what to tell the developer in these cases

18:02:06 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jcraig: need to reference the priorities of the constituents because the author may be confused but we need to prioritize users over authors

18:02:24 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

matt king: users get flooded with titles that get in the way

18:03:15 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: the spec says to expose title as description in some cases but there is a discrepancy between browsers

18:03:26 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

jamesn: calls time

18:03:45 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:03:45 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/14-aria-minutes.html WilliamTennisNFCU

18:03:46 [aaronlev]

talking among googlers here, we'd be ok with either the firefox or chrome approach

18:03:56 [aaronlev]

as long as there is consensus

18:04:53 [WilliamTennisNFCU]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:04:53 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/14-aria-minutes.html WilliamTennisNFCU

18:05:22 [jamesn]

zakim, please part

18:05:22 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees have been WilliamTennisNFCU, IrfanA, Joanmarie_Diggs, harris, Jemma, jamesn, Matt_King

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