16:40:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:40:49 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/14-aria-irc
16:40:51 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:40:53 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:40:53 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
16:40:59 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
16:42:01 <jamesn> regrets: PeterKrautzberger StefanSchnabel MarkMcCarthy JaunitaGeorge
16:43:18 <jamesn> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3iTXLO7)
16:43:18 <jamesn> agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3lCogcz)
16:43:18 <jamesn> agenda+ [TPAC 2021](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1482)
16:43:18 <jamesn>   - Please register https://www.w3.org/2021/10/TPAC/#participation
16:43:18 <jamesn>   - ARIA sessions Scheduled Thursday Oct 28 - (1 hour) 7am Pacific / 10am Eastern & (2 hours) 9am Pacific / noon Eastern
16:43:19 <jamesn> agenda+ Charter License Changes. Preparing CFC for change to Software and Document license.
16:43:19 <jamesn> agenda+ [Updating ARIA 1.2 due to IDL implementations (exit and re-enter CR?)](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1598)
16:43:19 <jamesn> agenda+ [clarify img naming steps](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/322)
16:43:19 <jamesn> agenda+ [Spec is unclear on aria-invalid="spelling" | "grammar" uses](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/989)
16:43:20 <jamesn> agenda+ [Add figcaption to computation?](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/325)
17:00:29 <WilliamTennisNFCU> WilliamTennisNFCU has joined #aria
17:00:35 <WilliamTennisNFCU> present+
17:01:53 <harris> harris has joined #aria
17:03:07 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/1d223877-730c-446f-bfa9-2e9222902112/20211014T130000
17:04:31 <siri> siri has joined #aria
17:04:55 <IrfanA> IrfanA has joined #aria
17:05:01 <IrfanA> present+
17:05:36 <Jemma> Jemma has joined #aria
17:05:44 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:05:59 <harris> present+
17:06:07 <Jemma> present+
17:06:16 <jamesn> present+
17:06:46 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:06:55 <WilliamTennisNFCU> scribe: WilliamTennisNFCU
17:07:08 <WilliamTennisNFCU> zakim, next item
17:07:08 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3iTXLO7) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:07:44 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: agrees
17:08:10 <WilliamTennisNFCU> James Craig: could happen in 1.2
17:11:27 <WilliamTennisNFCU> Jamesn: Change defines but more work needs to be done on the indicates as its more nuanced
17:12:12 <WilliamTennisNFCU> zakim, next item
17:12:12 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3lCogcz) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:12:44 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: no new PRs asks for anyone to bring forward
17:12:58 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: moving on
17:13:09 <WilliamTennisNFCU> zakim, close this item
17:13:09 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
17:13:10 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:13:10 <Zakim> 3. [TPAC 2021](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1482) [from jamesn]
17:13:17 <WilliamTennisNFCU> zakim, next item
17:13:17 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [TPAC 2021](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1482) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:13:33 <jcraig> s/could happen in 1.2/this change could happen in 1.2, but the related issue (changing "Indicates" to "Enumerates") would be dependent upon our decision in the related IDL discussion./
17:13:35 <jamesn>   - Please register https://www.w3.org/2021/10/TPAC/#participation
17:13:51 <jamesn>   - ARIA sessions Scheduled Thursday Oct 28 - (1 hour) 7am Pacific / 10am Eastern & (2 hours) 9am Pacific / noon Eastern
17:14:51 <jcraig> s/Change defines but more work needs to be done on the indicates as its more nuanced/Based on jamesn's suggestion, I'll make the one-word edit, and raise the related definition change as a new issue (comments made in ARIA #1625)/
17:16:55 <IrfanA> q+
17:17:18 <joanie> q+ To ask if these will be added to the ARIA WG meeting calendar
17:17:26 <joanie> q-
17:19:54 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1482
17:20:10 <WilliamTennisNFCU> cyns: proposing ideas for TPAC discussions on issue 1482
17:21:03 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: we could run some more meetings if these are not proposed as topics
17:21:22 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: i will not be available to run them but someone else could
17:22:06 <WilliamTennisNFCU> cyns: will propose a time/date for these meetings
17:22:33 <WilliamTennisNFCU> cyns: Canvas seems stable at the moment
17:23:55 <IrfanA> q-
17:25:16 <IrfanA> AT https://github.com/w3c/pronunciation/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3AAT
17:25:19 <IrfanA> Browsers https://github.com/w3c/pronunciation/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3ABrowsers
17:25:29 <WilliamTennisNFCU> janina sajka: has a proposed discussion on how content is pronounced and old technology that is bringing challenges
17:25:46 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: propose a time/date
17:26:24 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: please be concious of timezones with scheduling
17:26:50 <aaronlev> aaronlev has joined #aria
17:27:02 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: AT vendors would need to be invlved for various countries and continents
17:27:59 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: propose the schedule in a github issue so that various companies can have their input on the date/time
17:29:22 <WilliamTennisNFCU> ali irfan: need people from browsers and AT vendors
17:30:29 <IrfanA> s/ali irfan/ IrfanA
17:31:01 <WilliamTennisNFCU> James Craig: while we have the AT people there is there room for a cross group meeting
17:31:27 <WilliamTennisNFCU> IrfanA: need specific people from the aria group
17:32:01 <WilliamTennisNFCU> janina sajka: will send specific invites to individuals
17:32:43 <WilliamTennisNFCU> janina sajka: difficulty registering to TPAC
17:32:46 <WilliamTennisNFCU> james
17:33:02 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: difficulties may be intermittent
17:33:10 <WilliamTennisNFCU> zakim, next item
17:33:10 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Charter License Changes. Preparing CFC for change to Software and Document license. -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:34:09 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: In the issue with our charter there are 3 votes of support for changing to new license
17:34:22 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: objections?
17:35:38 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: no objections
17:36:21 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: this will goto charter review and objections may be heard there
17:36:32 <WilliamTennisNFCU> zakim, next item
17:36:32 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- [Updating ARIA 1.2 due to IDL implementations (exit and re-enter CR?)](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1598) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:36:56 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: there have been a few updates to this
17:37:16 <WilliamTennisNFCU> james craig: i had not seen the comments
17:37:56 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:38:04 <Matt_King> present+
17:38:05 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jcraig: there may be an implementation issue here
17:38:46 <jcraig> From #1598 Option 1 "Spec could state that the nullable enumerated attributes reflect (HTML definition), and the other nullable attributes, ~"Return the value of the attribute if present, or null otherwise." Downside to this path is that none of the implementations match the enumerated attributes IDL now, so those would need to be removed from the PR, or ARIA 1.2 CR would need to wait on two implementations for the enumerated validations.
17:38:46 <jcraig> Note: validation for default missing value and default invalid value is currently handled by the backing accessibility implementation in the engines, and not by the IDL implementation."
17:38:47 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jcraig: option1: would seem to be the best solution. JC will describe
17:39:09 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: option1 still has the same issue though?
17:39:36 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jcraig: same issue but less overall issues
17:40:14 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: it might not be fewer issues than with option2
17:40:35 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jcraig: enumerated ones would be easier, just remove the question mark
17:40:54 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jcraig: for non enumerated we don't have a logic way of specing that
17:42:50 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jcraig and cyns get into technical discussion around empty vs nullable values
17:43:47 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: there are nuances with empty and nullable in aria 1.3 for aria-desrcribed-by
17:44:26 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: in option 1 & 2 there will be issues with that and the algorith to work around it would need to be defined
17:44:41 <WilliamTennisNFCU> ^ jcraig
17:44:54 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: we have an algorith already
17:45:40 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jcraig: there is still a logic hole but it may have been addressed, looking it up
17:46:42 <jcraig> https://w3c.github.io/aria/#idl_attr_disambiguation
17:46:44 <WilliamTennisNFCU> cyns: good idea or bad idea? what if we gave a default value of null?
17:47:54 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jcraig: sections define linking patterns and gives it a format and there are exceptions to that format but we could possibly modify some sections to fit the scheme better
17:48:36 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: this section is normative
17:48:55 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jcraig: i will respond to the comments
17:49:49 <jamesn> agenda?
17:49:53 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: anything else to add?
17:51:07 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: put a link to the meeting in the issue to elicit a response as no direct contacts exist to those that need to attend
17:51:45 <WilliamTennisNFCU> zakim, next item
17:51:45 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [clarify img naming steps](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/322) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:52:51 <WilliamTennisNFCU> scott ohara: drops title attribute if alt name is empty
17:53:52 <WilliamTennisNFCU> scott ohara: firefox does not want to drop the title
17:54:28 <WilliamTennisNFCU> scott ohara: chromium and firefox are conflicting on this
17:55:15 <WilliamTennisNFCU> matt king: is there any data we could use to help with this?
17:55:52 <WilliamTennisNFCU> matt king: this has been communicated for years that this is what empty alt text means
17:56:20 <WilliamTennisNFCU> matt king: trying to think of a real world case of needing a title on a decorative image
17:56:27 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: not needed
17:57:04 <WilliamTennisNFCU> matt king: let's get a consensus on this issue
17:57:06 <jcraig> q+ to ask for review assignment and to mention the priorities of constituents
17:58:49 <WilliamTennisNFCU> scott ohara and aaron leventhal discuss the nuances between chromium and firefox's level of exposure of the title and description of the image
17:59:22 <WilliamTennisNFCU> matt king: we should align the experiences across the browsers if possible
18:00:22 <WilliamTennisNFCU> discussion around author error and what to tell the developer in these cases
18:02:06 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jcraig: need to reference the priorities of the constituents because the author may be confused but we need to prioritize users over authors
18:02:24 <WilliamTennisNFCU> matt king: users get flooded with titles that get in the way
18:03:15 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: the spec says to expose title as description in some cases but there is a discrepancy between browsers
18:03:26 <WilliamTennisNFCU> jamesn: calls time
18:03:45 <WilliamTennisNFCU> rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/14-aria-minutes.html WilliamTennisNFCU
18:03:46 <aaronlev> talking among googlers here, we'd be ok with either the firefox or chrome approach
18:03:56 <aaronlev> as long as there is consensus
18:04:53 <WilliamTennisNFCU> rrsagent, make minutes
18:04:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/14-aria-minutes.html WilliamTennisNFCU
18:05:22 <jamesn> zakim, please part
18:05:22 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been WilliamTennisNFCU, IrfanA, Joanmarie_Diggs, harris, Jemma, jamesn, Matt_King
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