16:46:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:46:06 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/10/07-aria-irc
16:46:08 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:46:10 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:46:12 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
16:46:17 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
16:47:22 <jamesn> regrets: JoanmarieDiggs SarahHigley PeterKrautzberger Jaunita George MarkMcCarthy HarrisSchneiderman
16:47:26 <jamesn> present+
16:48:44 <jamesn> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3uLYC88)
16:48:44 <jamesn> agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3lgCDTP)
16:48:44 <jamesn> agenda+ [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates)
16:48:44 <jamesn> agenda+ Charter - what license should we have in our charter?
16:48:44 <jamesn> agenda+* [Expectations for aria-checked on HTML checkbox](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1622)
16:48:45 <jamesn> agenda+ [Updating ARIA 1.2 due to IDL implementations (exit and re-enter CR?)](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1598)
16:48:45 <jamesn> agenda+ [TPAC 2021](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1482)
17:00:28 <WilliamTennisNFCU> WilliamTennisNFCU has joined #aria
17:01:14 <WilliamTennisNFCU> presetn+
17:01:19 <WilliamTennisNFCU> present+
17:01:21 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
17:03:22 <spectranaut> present+
17:03:38 <StefanS> present+
17:03:41 <WilliamTennisNFCU> I am 850 and cannot access the zoom video meeting
17:03:49 <WilliamTennisNFCU> I get a 403
17:04:48 <Greta> Greta has joined #aria
17:04:53 <Greta> present+
17:04:55 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
17:05:27 <jcraig> present+
17:05:37 <jamesn> https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/4184
17:06:09 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
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17:07:56 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:07:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/07-aria-minutes.html jamesn
17:08:11 <CurtBellew> present+
17:08:14 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 1
17:08:14 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3uLYC88) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:08:34 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/145
17:10:25 <spectranaut> jcraig: to explain: various image file formats have the ability to include different text in the file format. svg has "title" element, could be used as "alt-text". likewise there is some accessible-description fields available for jpg and gif, and the new format high efficiency image format has "alt-t". the goal is ot have something in the acc name spec, and it hasn't been hidden, but it has alt text embedded in the image file, we should
17:10:25 <spectranaut> use it.
17:10:36 <spectranaut> jcraig: I don't think it is specific to html
17:10:44 <spectranaut> matt: does it go into core-aam?
17:10:55 <spectranaut> jamesn: not core-aam, not an aria thing
17:11:07 <spectranaut> jcraig: the spec of each file format should define this
17:11:20 <spectranaut> jcraig: maybe there should be a note that points to all the file format
17:11:47 <spectranaut> bryan: acc name spec does call out svg specifically?
17:11:54 <spectranaut> jamesn: I'd like scott to take a look
17:12:01 <spectranaut> scott: sure
17:12:26 <jcraig> zakim, close item 1
17:12:26 <Zakim> agendum 1, [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3uLYC88), closed
17:12:26 <spectranaut> jamesn: no milestones right now.... because accname doesn't have milestones
17:12:27 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:12:27 <Zakim> 2. [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3lgCDTP) [from jamesn]
17:12:38 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 1
17:12:38 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3uLYC88) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:12:46 <jcraig> zakim, close item 1
17:12:46 <Zakim> agendum 1, [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3uLYC88), closed
17:12:47 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:12:47 <Zakim> 2. [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3lgCDTP) [from jamesn]
17:12:48 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 2
17:12:49 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3lgCDTP) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:13:19 <jcraig> jamesn anyone aware of PRs?
17:13:30 <jcraig> Scott has one
17:13:40 <jcraig> s/jamesn/jamesn:/
17:13:51 <jcraig> jamesn: I accidentally broke the query
17:14:09 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/pull/348
17:14:52 <jcraig> Scott: would also like to discuss fig caption. have heard many saying fig caption for name is "awful".
17:15:20 <jcraig> matt_c: it's being handled like a container not a name
17:15:36 <jcraig> Scott: will add fig caption to agenda for next week
17:15:53 <jcraig> zakim, close item 2
17:15:53 <Zakim> agendum 2, [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3lgCDTP), closed
17:15:54 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:15:54 <Zakim> 3. [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) [from jamesn]
17:15:58 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 3
17:15:58 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:16:42 <jcraig> matt_c: would like to lead a grid/listview discussion in a deep dive... timing important with TPAC coming up.
17:16:57 <jcraig> should have Sarah H, Stefan, Corey(sp?)
17:17:55 <jcraig> matt_c: could wait until after TPAC... will arrange a time.
17:18:28 <jcraig> cyns: Accname #145 would be a good issue for after TPAC
17:18:45 <jcraig> cyns: use 9:00 slot for TPAC prep
17:19:12 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/2021/10/TPAC/
17:20:06 <jcraig> jamesn: breakout sessions one week, then joint WG meetings in the next week
17:20:21 <jcraig> matt_c: planning breakout session for screen reader automation
17:21:11 <jcraig> Scott: There is a WhatWG issue for `focusgroup` attribute... ARIA group should familiarize themselves with it before TPAC
17:21:13 <Jory> Jory has joined #aria
17:21:19 <jcraig> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7054
17:22:03 <jcraig> Bryan: If AccName talks needed, I will not be available Oct 20–22.
17:22:12 <jamesn> agenda?
17:22:17 <jcraig> s/not be/NOT be/
17:23:34 <jcraig> jamesn: issue with ReSpec came up. The license wasn't what we were expecting...
17:23:43 <jamesn> This Working Group will use the W3C Document license for Recommendation track deliverables and the W3C Software and Document license for Note track deliverables and licensed non-TR publications.
17:23:52 <jcraig> Current charter ^
17:24:25 <jcraig> Most other charter use Software & Document License.... difference is in the ability to fork the work.
17:25:06 <jcraig> MichaelC: You can't make a derivative license under our current license.
17:25:23 <StefanS_> StefanS_ has joined #aria
17:25:38 <jcraig> jamesn: should we keep current or move to the more permissive license?
17:25:38 <StefanS_> present+
17:26:08 <jcraig> WilliamTennisNFCU: Would worry about opening ARIA license.
17:26:35 <jcraig> MichaelC: Derivative license not as concerning as Derivative+Conflicting.
17:26:46 <jcraig> If we were to change, we'd need to re-charter.
17:27:21 <jcraig> jamesn: ARIA, APA, and AG are the only WGs I've found that use the W3C Document license.
17:28:19 <jcraig> does anyone strongly prefer one or the other?
17:28:38 <jcraig> jcraig: would need to review to represent Apple's opinion.
17:28:49 <jcraig> cyns: also true for Google and others
17:30:55 <MichaelC> https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues/282
17:30:56 <jcraig> MichaelC: Charter went to the AC already
17:31:31 <jcraig> Also to horizontal review
17:32:02 <jcraig> jamesn: charter the same... just moving the AAM specs to living standards
17:32:53 <jcraig> WilliamTennisNFCU: Why does Marcos want the license change?
17:33:47 <jcraig> MichaelC: likely so he won't have to support both... Phillipe doesn't have a strong opinion so it's up to us as the WG.
17:34:20 <jcraig> last plan of record is that these licenses are intended to co-exist
17:34:48 <jcraig> jamesn: unlikely that someone would use the license change to create a different, conflicting standard
17:35:09 <jcraig> MichaelC: and W3C licensing is available in other ways
17:35:51 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues/282#issuecomment-935408044
17:36:22 <jcraig> zakim, close item 3
17:36:22 <Zakim> agendum 3, [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates), closed
17:36:24 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:36:24 <Zakim> 4. Charter - what license should we have in our charter? [from jamesn]
17:36:39 <jcraig> zakim, close item 4
17:36:39 <Zakim> agendum 4, Charter - what license should we have in our charter?, closed
17:36:41 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:36:41 <Zakim> 5. * [Expectations for aria-checked on HTML checkbox](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1622) [from jamesn]
17:36:47 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 5
17:36:47 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- * [Expectations for aria-checked on HTML checkbox](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1622) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:37:35 <jcraig> Scott: in testing, I've found aria-checked=mixed is not support on native HTML checkbox. makes sense, IMO.
17:38:21 <jcraig> aria-checked doesn't match the boolean nature of the HTML native checkbox.
17:38:38 <cyns> q+
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17:39:07 <jcraig> boolean `checked` is in direct conflict with aria-checked=mixed, so the HTML attribute "wins" as allowed by the spec
17:40:00 <StefanS> q+
17:40:00 <jcraig> potential solutions, 1. add note to aria to use the native indeterminate IDL attribute to expose the mixed state (my preference)
17:40:21 <jcraig> 2. special case for aria-checked in the conflict w/ host lang section
17:40:53 <jamesn> add a note to ARIA indicating that if authors need to expose a native checkbox in the 'mixed' state, that they need to use the host language feature to do so (this is my preference).
17:40:53 <jamesn> or, i would think that a special case for aria-checked needs to be made since it has this unique feature of combining two native states into one attribute.
17:40:53 <jamesn> OR, create an aria-mixed (or similar) attribute, deprecating the mixed value from aria-checked to mitigate this special case.
17:41:06 <jcraig> OR, 3. create an aria-mixed (or similar) attribute, deprecating the mixed value from aria-checked to mitigate this special case.
17:41:06 <jamesn> (from the issue - the 3 possibilities)
17:41:31 <jcraig> cyns: I think there is a fourth option... would HTML be willing to do a mixed state checkbox again
17:41:54 <jamesn> ack cyns
17:42:08 <jcraig> another issue has been raised for a native mixed attribute... also getting pushback.
17:42:28 <jamesn> ack ste
17:43:08 <jcraig> Stefan: is it good to "mix up" thing here: apply aria attrs in addition to the HTML attr
17:43:47 <StefanS> q-
17:44:07 <jcraig> Scott: generally, people should use the host language features... this one in particular confuses authors because there is not obvious way for authors to get a mixed state on a native checkbox
17:45:23 <jcraig> jamesn: strong native semantics section of ARIA for attrs
17:46:17 <jcraig> cyns: implementations have ways around.... e.g. <input type=checkbox role=checkbox aria-checked=mixed> works in Chrome
17:47:06 <siri_> siri_ has joined #aria
17:47:08 <jcraig> Scott: Firefox follows the spec more strictly and ignores aria-checked=mixed on <input type=checkbox>
17:47:20 <jcraig> happy choosing any of the solutions.
17:47:54 <jcraig> cyns: I think adding the note (option 1) is reasonable... Can we also purse native mixed (option 4)
17:48:04 <jamesn> q?
17:48:20 <cyns> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/6578
17:48:49 <jcraig> latest discussion for native mixed ^
17:48:55 <jamesn> "Authors SHOULD NOT use the aria-checked attribute on any element where the checkedness of the element can be in opposition to the current value of the aria-checked attribute."
17:49:19 <jcraig> Scott: I think it should change to MUST NOT
17:49:50 <jcraig> wanted to bring to the group for opinions first
17:50:40 <jcraig> various: general agreement in favor of change to MUST NOT
17:51:08 <jcraig> no need to change AIRA spec because validators can fail on the HTML-AAM MUST NOT
17:51:18 <jcraig> s/AIRA/ARIA/
17:51:22 <jcraig> s/AIRA/ARIA/g
17:51:39 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
17:51:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/07-aria-minutes.html jcraig
17:51:52 <jcraig> Scott: should I add the note (option 1)?
17:52:52 <jcraig> jamesn: Add a note that authors should not rely on the Chromium behavior... need to file bug... Will also file WebKit bug for indeterminate attribute.
17:53:02 <StefanS> q+
17:53:29 <jcraig> ack s
17:53:36 <StefanS> q-
17:53:36 <jcraig> zakim, close item 5
17:53:37 <Zakim> agendum 5, * [Expectations for aria-checked on HTML checkbox](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1622), closed
17:53:37 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:53:37 <Zakim> 6. [Updating ARIA 1.2 due to IDL implementations (exit and re-enter CR?)](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1598) [from jamesn]
17:53:46 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 6
17:53:46 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [Updating ARIA 1.2 due to IDL implementations (exit and re-enter CR?)](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1598) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:54:42 <spectranaut> jcraig: main objection is to the term reflect
17:55:06 <spectranaut> jcraig: lets put a roadmap that says we want to get to aria 1.2, but we will address it. for now, let the spec mirror the implementations
17:55:19 <spectranaut> jcraig: it sounds like it should be ok, if they object, they can make a comment here
17:56:18 <spectranaut> jcraig: I talked internally, and looked at our implementation, cynthia and maybe aaron had concerns about implementation complexity. I think it is a quick and easy change in all three implementations. the complexity was not about nullable strings, but about other IDL types, like non-string types
17:56:34 <spectranaut> cyns: I thought there was complexity around sprouting attributes
17:57:12 <spectranaut> jcraig: for 1.2, match what is currently there, don't use term reflect
17:57:31 <spectranaut> jcraig: for 1.3, we could consider making it non-nullable reflective dom strings
17:57:41 <spectranaut> jamesn: we don't want to do that tho right
17:58:27 <spectranaut> jamesn: aria-description has a usecase to override a title further down the chain, it should be an empty string which is different from it not being set
17:58:36 <spectranaut> cyns: and alt should be able to return an empty string
17:58:48 <spectranaut> jamesn: aria-description="" should override a title?
17:59:17 <spectranaut> jamesn: override bad tooltips
17:59:38 <spectranaut> jcraig: we should mention alt in this issue
18:00:02 <spectranaut> jcraig: we should say alt is broken in the html spec
18:00:21 <spectranaut> jamesn: alt is doing what the spec says, but it's not useful.
18:01:05 <spectranaut> bryan: I found a weird case where aria-description="" comes in handy. custom slider where aria-valuetext represents the time of day
18:01:23 <spectranaut> cyns: should we deep dive next week?
18:01:30 <spectranaut> jcraig: I can't make next week
18:01:47 <spectranaut> jcraig: we need a deep dive with ana or dominic or ??
18:02:08 <spectranaut> cyns: I can put one in for the other IDL thing, we can have an IDL session
18:03:57 <spectranaut> jamesn: I'm ok with aria-label being a nullable string, but for the ones we do believe, like aria-decscription. anything enumerated should have nullable dom strings
18:04:08 <spectranaut> jamesn: html should all it
18:04:23 <spectranaut> jcraig: calling out alt is a good example
18:05:01 <spectranaut> cyns: I'll make a tpac session! I'll need help with agenda
18:05:18 <spectranaut> jamesn: can we get rid of the term "reflect" jcraig ?
18:06:17 <jcraig> s/good example/good example since Anne objected to crossorigin attr/
18:07:22 <spectranaut> there are general agreement to not take out the IDL section.
18:08:14 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:08:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/07-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:09:08 <jcraig> scribe+ spectranaut
18:09:10 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:09:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/07-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:10:01 <jcraig> present+ Scott_OHara
18:10:07 <jcraig> present+ Matt_Cooper
18:10:29 <jcraig> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
18:11:27 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:11:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/07-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:12:19 <jcraig> present- Matt_Cooper
18:12:27 <jcraig> present+ Matt_King
18:13:08 <jcraig> s/matt_c:/matt_king:/
18:13:10 <jcraig> s/matt_c:/matt_king:/g
18:13:15 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:13:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/07-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:16:02 <jcraig> present+ Michael_Cooper
18:16:10 <jcraig> present+ Cynthia_Shelley
18:16:17 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:16:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/10/07-aria-minutes.html jcraig
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