18:00:35 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 18:00:35 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/09/28-aria-apg-irc 18:01:11 Zakim has joined #aria-apg 18:01:18 Rich_Noah has joined #aria-apg 18:01:34 MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 18:01:43 CHAIR: Matt King 18:01:47 present+ 18:01:52 rrsagent, make log public 18:02:01 rrsagent, make minutes 18:02:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/28-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King 18:03:11 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/September-28%2C-2021-Agenda 18:04:20 present+ 18:04:33 present+ 18:05:02 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:05:15 present+ jongund 18:06:06 sarah_higley has joined #aria-apg 18:06:06 MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria-apg 18:06:10 present+ 18:06:16 present+ 18:06:21 scribe: jongund 18:06:40 TOPIC: PR Priorities 18:07:10 MK: Is the index problem is fixed? 18:07:29 RN: Jes can answer that 18:07:43 JD: I think everything is green now 18:07:53 MK: There was a random menu button problem 18:08:25 JD: We cannot recreate locally, but happends on the server 18:08:42 JG: That is my experience many times 18:08:51 MK: So those test are disabled? 18:09:01 RN: The issue is still open 18:09:22 JD: It's impossible for us to fix it if we can't recreate it 18:10:05 MK: I wonder if there is something within the Github, can you try with the bocoup server 18:10:10 present+ 18:10:13 JD: I will look into that 18:10:21 MK: I am trying to merge switch 18:10:29 MK: I have been looking at the button one 18:10:57 MK: Our previously took information related to the switch pattern 18:11:37 MK: It seems important to address this in the pattern, we still have wording comparing to a checkbox 18:12:35 MK: I am working on some language in the pattern and then use the language in each example 18:13:18 MK: I am curious about linking to similar examples of checkbox 18:13:37 JG: I vote no for now, make it similiar 18:13:56 JK: Why am I going for no 18:14:50 JG: Why confuse people with links to other widgets 18:15:18 MK: Menu button has its own pattern and toggle button does not 18:15:38 MK: We will just do in the pattern only, not int he example buttons 18:16:08 MK: I am considering the changes to the switch pattern editorial, so when I am done will just merge it 18:16:41 MK: I think we are close switch, but Jon added more accessibility feature language, I have some questions 18:16:45 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1895 18:16:49 MK: I will ask in the issue 18:17:18 MK: I think we have a purely coding issue, seems to be just coding, not an accessibility issue 18:17:23 MK: I will ask in the PR 18:17:29 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1895/commits/dd2535a277858d1a63d3d78e271bdafd31fb9d9d 18:17:40 MK: That's all I have on PR priorities 18:18:17 JG: Is there any discussion on what to do with all the examples that don;t meet our coding and documentation practices 18:18:54 MK: Working through the list from the coverage report 18:19:17 MK: We do not have project to go back and update old examples 18:19:36 JG: I am just curious about any discussion about it 18:20:00 present+ 18:20:00 MK: In the current PR list, looks like sortable table would be good to get into 1.2 18:20:32 MK: We want to get accordion done 18:20:49 MK: reading through list of PRs.... 18:21:33 MK: We are way behind in getting ARIA 1.2 out 18:22:07 MK: At some point on we need to wait until the new website is out next year 18:23:26 JG: I am concerned about a lot of the old examples do not meet our current standards 18:23:45 MK: The new website will have a more immediate publication process 18:24:17 JK: So we labels for PR, this is process we are going to update the coding practices 18:24:28 MK: We will not get anything like that in 1.2 18:24:46 JK: We need a list of examples that need to be updated 18:24:59 JK: Trying to figure out how to get things updated 18:25:26 JG: I suggest we get back on our agenda 18:25:35 TOPIC: Redesign update 18:25:54 https://github.com/w3c/apg-redesign/issues/5 18:25:56 ID: I documented the discussions from last week 18:26:24 ID: No other significant updates, we have been focusing on ARIA-AT project 18:26:50 ID: We be going back to determine the change priorities and issues 18:26:58 MK: Can we move on? 18:27:05 TOPIC: Accordian 18:27:12 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1830 18:27:18 SH: There are to PRs, I hope one can be merged 18:28:03 SH: The most important are the changes in behavior, I have updated the coding and the tests 18:28:25 SH: This one doesn't change the example, just the behavior 18:28:46 SH: Buttons within headings issue was raised by Siri 18:28:54 MK: This is all code and test 18:29:04 SH: The documentation is mostly removals 18:29:44 JG: I reviewed it and it looks good 18:29:57 MK: When it loads everything is collapsed 18:30:08 SH: The first one is open, but you can collapse it 18:30:25 MK: I assume it is expanded by default? 18:30:44 SH: I was minimizing changes from the original example 18:31:04 SH: This one is removing behaviors 18:31:23 MK: Did we have anything in the guidance about the arrow key behavior 18:31:27 SH: Yes 18:31:37 SH: I updated the documentation 18:32:00 MK: Aria-disabled been removed from the exmaple, but it is still in the pattern 18:32:11 SH: I didn't remove any 18:32:38 MK: We will prioritize this one for merging, focus on 1834 18:32:51 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1834 18:33:16 SH: I still have some documentation and test changes, if the behavior is what we want 18:34:01 SH: There is a basic classic accordian example 18:34:16 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/accordion-step-example/examples/accordion/accordion.html 18:34:21 MK: Do we want to call it, right now it is called accordian example 18:34:26 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/accordion-step-example/examples/accordion/accordion-group.html 18:34:35 MK: HOw do we distinguish the two 18:35:12 MK: The one that's called basic in the PR, we need to discuss the difference with the disclosure example, just the headings are the difference 18:35:16 SH: Yep 18:35:45 MK: In the accordion pattern, is there anything visually the same 18:36:06 SH: There is a visual difference, it's a blocky thing with a + and - icons 18:36:15 SH: The image one has an arrow 18:37:02 SH: The FAQ one could be an accordion, could use plus and minus instead of .. 18:38:11 MK: The presence of headers is a big difference to screen reader users 18:38:47 JN: We are not allowed to overriding definition with headings, so we needed to change that 18:39:04 MK: We are not doing that in the disclosure button example 18:39:10 https://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/examples/disclosure/disclosure-faq.html 18:40:41 MK: There is more visible in the collapsed that the header, there could be more things available, like moving the sections around or copy 18:40:51 MK: We do not have an example that demonstrates that 18:41:18 MK: What is the grouped one grouped? 18:42:04 SH: because there are dependencies on closing other sections, usually used in multi-step accordion group 18:42:15 MK: The key difference is one will always be open 18:42:49 MK: We should maybe create a name for that pattern, in other we use Switch using buttons for example 18:43:57 MK: We may want to describe, like accordion for a stepped process, so we don't need to define "grouped accordion" 18:44:12 JG: Sounds like a good idea to me 18:45:09 JG: I like when we describe what something is being used for, another way to identify waht they want to use 18:45:27 MK: Can only one be expanded? 18:45:42 SH: Only one can be expanded at a time 18:45:52 MK: So we can explain that i the example 18:46:15 MK: We need people to look at PR 1834 18:47:20 SH: It does removed the arrow key behavior and numbers 1,2,3, otherwise is very much the same 18:47:54 SH: I also updated the code, this reuses the accordion code and then adds according-group.js 18:48:05 MK: Is Brian on the call? 18:48:38 MK: Brian had this idea of making the behavior configurable in the code, is the group code support .. 18:49:20 SH: The accordion script is just opening and closing, accordion group closes other open sections 18:49:53 MK: These seem pretty straight forward to me, thank you Sara 18:50:05 MK: Any other questions about accordion 18:50:12 TOPIC: Tooltp 18:50:26 SH: I have the start of a draft 18:50:50 siri has joined #aria-apg 18:51:16 SH: Talked about defining the difference between a tooltip and toggletip, the description provides design guidance 18:51:42 SH: Form field with a tooltip and then tooltip for icon buttons 18:52:31 SH: Data visualization is using a lot of tooltips, I think there should be a behavior section, they need to respond to focus events 18:52:56 did the meeting just end? 18:53:01 :D 18:53:37 I joined back 18:53:54 SH: Some might open on touch start and touch end 18:54:07 ... everyone got kicked off 18:54:14 JK: Let's go again 18:54:35 SH: Touch behavior is not something I have seen in the wild 18:54:49 MK: I have concerns about overriding long press 18:55:12 SH: I don't think we would change default 18:55:41 MK: A tooltip would appear and then disappear with long press, which seems to be less than a second for VO 18:55:59 MK: It might cause problem 18:56:18 MK: It gives one more suggestion not to use tooltip 18:56:47 SH: I do think you are right, but you have to actually press the trigger for long press 18:57:19 SH: Tooltip has problems with other AT like voice 18:57:42 MK: It you want to experiment, you can, but it feels risky to me 18:58:03 SH: Writing notes on the issue related to risky 18:58:13 MK: Do you have a draft in a PR? 18:58:22 SH: I have a draft in a gist 18:58:28 we have 2 min left for the meeting 18:58:31 SH: I need to put more time into this 18:58:59 MK: Do think we should have some illustrations in the pattern it's self 18:59:12 SH: I am in favor of that 18:59:38 MK: I am not sure how much time we have for this, the new ARIA 1.2 date maybe in october 18:59:57 MK: Might be a good thing for our redesign,, is that OK with you 19:00:01 SH: Yes 19:00:26 Siri: MOdal or disclosure? 19:00:57 I agree with Sarah 19:01:12 SH: For the toggle tips, I don't think they should be model, but for a toggle tip, people need to move focus around the page, so non-modal 19:01:26 Siri: There will be some modal and some non-modal? 19:01:47 MK: There seems to me to have some variations, I have seen both used successfully 19:02:18 MK: But you generalization I think its good, you don;t want to close the information to move to another art of the page 19:02:38 MK: What is the most common? 19:03:39 MK: The concept of being able to read the information, with a clear, basically you don't waht to fall outside of it, user perceives it as its own thing 19:04:04 Siri: I agree with MK, focus is paced in the popup, how do I know I am out of it? 19:04:33 MK: I am thinking of a form at work, where someone did a good job with a dialog 19:04:44 MK: We need to talk though what examples we want 19:04:55 MichaelC_ has joined #aria-apg 19:04:56 SH: I will polish this a little more 19:05:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:05:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/28-aria-apg-minutes.html jongund 19:05:47 SH: ... creating a list of ideas ... 19:06:23 MK: Getting it in a PR will be good 20:14:53 MichaelC has joined #aria-apg 21:27:04 Zakim has left #aria-apg