13:48:11 RRSAgent has joined #silver 13:48:11 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/09/24-silver-irc 13:48:13 RRSAgent, make logs Public 13:48:15 Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group 13:51:31 sajkaj has joined #silver 13:51:55 agenda? 13:59:02 agenda+ Quick update on Error Prevention next steps 13:59:09 agenda+ Placeholder guidelines and how we incorporate into the draft 14:00:18 Makoto has joined #silver 14:00:27 present+ 14:00:50 Wilco has joined #silver 14:01:21 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJynH1Ky_hI 14:01:54 Chuck has joined #silver 14:02:42 present+ 14:02:56 present+ 14:03:08 Please sign up to scribe: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Scribe_List 14:03:18 Also we need a scribe for today! 14:03:45 scribe: sajkaj 14:04:32 JakeAbma_ has joined #silver 14:04:34 zakim, next item 14:04:34 agendum 1 -- Quick update on Error Prevention next steps -- taken up [from Lauriat] 14:05:21 Chuck: Notes that chairs are aware there have been stresses between Silver and AGWG -- and chairs are working on how to bring us all forward togewther 14:05:31 Chuck: So, requesting everyone hold for the moment 14:05:44 jenniferS has joined #silver 14:05:44 zakim, next item 14:05:44 agendum 2 -- Placeholder guidelines and how we incorporate into the draft -- taken up [from Lauriat] 14:05:48 present+ 14:05:54 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit#heading=h.20nok4tfj7v5 14:06:10 JF_ has joined #silver 14:06:23 Lauriat: Fleshed out enough to give an indication of what WCAG3 might look like 14:06:40 Lauriat: In the expectation and in response to the request that this is helpful 14:06:51 Lauriat: drafted based on the 2.x to silver map 14:06:59 Lauriat: does not include 2.2 14:07:07 Lauriat: these are "placeholder" guidelines 14:07:28 Lauriat: some are pretty solid, and others not 14:07:40 Lauriat: multimodality version of 2.4.5 ... 14:07:52 Lauriat: clear lang gives us something to point to 14:08:01 q+ 14:08:45 q+ to remove strikethroughs for screen-reaader users 14:08:46 janina: Note on conformance, when we agreed that next draft would have user generated, we would flag "that" in there. Same expectation of what we presented on media a few days ago. No commence since. May emerge more. 14:09:25 janina: media, captions, described media. Portions such as text alternatives, we'll treat differently than the web publisher. Does anything drafted encompass media or user generated? 14:09:53 sajkaj: Asks about marking user generated (and media) ... 14:10:15 Lauriat: Some would be media ... 14:10:28 Lauriat: believe user gen should be kept separate for now 14:10:54 Lauriat: when we put this in a draft, there will be the framing caveat -- i.e. a direction, not a finished product to implement 14:11:08 q+ to ask if members of Conformance Options could put in notes in this outline? 14:11:21 ack sajkaj 14:11:24 Lauriat: the point for now is the shape of things, not implementation ready content 14:11:29 ack sa 14:11:30 ack jan 14:11:33 ack jeanne 14:11:33 jeanne, you wanted to remove strikethroughs for screen-reaader users and to ask if members of Conformance Options could put in notes in this outline? 14:11:53 jeanne: Thanks Shawn, because it's lots of work and very helpful 14:12:10 jeanne: suggests removing the strikethroughs as it's a complication for screen reader users 14:12:43 jeanne: Asks Conformance Options people to annotate where things might fit by way of notes 14:13:19 Lauriat: OK to cleanup 14:13:57 Lauriat: Not sure annotation from Conformance is yet helpful? If it would be helpful to get a sense ... 14:14:07 Lauriat: suggests ed notes in the groupings 14:14:57 Lauriat: the list at the bottom of the doc is purposefully not linking to anything -- the grouping list up top does link 14:15:09 jeanne: agrees 14:15:10 q? 14:15:30 janina: Should I look at groupings and put in editors note? 14:15:37 q+ 14:15:44 jeanne: I'll work with you Janina if you'd like. 14:16:02 janina: I was looking at it this morning, and seeing the actions that need to be taken. 14:16:07 jeanne: I can help with that too. 14:16:19 back to you janina 14:16:34 Lauriat: notes each grouping has a struct; many have no methods yet 14:16:48 Lauriat: methods may be the place for the note--or top level bullet 14:17:02 ack JakeAbma_ 14:17:03 ack JakeAbma_ 14:17:19 JakeAbma_: Confirming this is placeholder guidelines? 14:17:59 JakeAbma_: some more related to specific user need; others more like struct/framework; others like outcomes ... 14:18:21 JakeAbma_: seems they are proper goals but could be seen differently 14:18:38 JakeAbma_: seems it fits one way; but may not be our eventual approach 14:18:55 JakeAbma_: user needs had a similar challenge and came up with a different set of categorizations 14:19:30 JakeAbma_: including apis -- nav, various tech sets 14:19:43 JakeAbma_: tried to have a set that felt like they belonged together 14:20:10 JakeAbma_: sdo asking as an open question; work from these? Or should we see what sets might come out if we think about it that way? 14:20:56 Lauriat: re "is the list?" no, 14:21:10 Lauriat: it's strictly what wcag3 might look like strictly migrating from 2 14:21:28 Lauriat: this is to give an idea as we go through the process of migrating 14:21:46 Lauriat: this list will be replaced eventually 14:21:58 Lauriat: hopefully also helps with conformance work 14:22:19 Lauriat: it's been some time since we had a wider conversation as Jake is suggesting from user needs 14:22:40 Lauriat: we want to cary core principles into 3, but not as an architecture 14:23:04 Lauriat: i.e. the perceivable, etc 14:23:18 Lauriat: we should be able to find those 4 14:23:46 Lauriat: I'm inclined to hold off getting into the specifics until user needs are more fleshed out and understood 14:23:52 q+ 14:24:49 Lauriat: did think we could start working through taking the intersections from user needs to give us a sense of scoping 14:25:05 Lauriat: so similar to user needs, but used differently 14:25:11 s/differently from 2/ 14:25:17 ack Wilco 14:25:32 Wilco: asking why this list as starting point? 14:25:54 Wilco: if we know it's not where we will end up 14:26:25 Lauriat: mainly to use a pass of interpreting user needs and expanding some ov 2 coverage like sc around text line length 14:26:39 Lauriat: expanded to customization 14:26:56 Lauriat: overall management, overall customization 14:27:15 Lauriat: to see how well we've covered certain intersections and where coverage is missing 14:27:36 Lauriat: that was my thinking in any case. If it doesn't help, we'll try something else. 14:27:42 Wilco: Not opposed, just wondering 14:28:09 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1POhgI_xHZtSoNbHFp3r5HYIkl6ePaP8DC5d90SZ1tF4/edit#gid=752043294 14:28:31 Lauriat: q for jake ... 14:28:50 Lauriat: before intersections I see lots of direct 2 notes; but some that aren't 14:29:01 Lauriat: is it just areframing of 2 SC's? 14:29:19 JakeAbma_: hope i understand the question ... 14:29:40 jake you're looking at intersection of functional and user needs? Yes? 14:29:42 Lauriat: yes 14:29:49 Lauriat: example C7 14:30:00 Lauriat: oops, let's try e7 14:30:20 Lauriat: notes allows for brightness adjustment 14:30:35 q+ 14:31:15 JakeAbma_: allow for making brightness adjustments 14:31:40 ack sajkaj 14:32:22 janina: Brightness adjustment, very last apa call on an api, gave horizontal review approval. API for auto-adjusting brightness based on lighting conditions. Should we have not signed off? Is there some level of gradience that would move away from the mean? 14:32:38 janina: Is it a factor we should consider in the api? 14:32:47 shawn: Great question, but not for today. 14:33:12 shawn: some note somewhere, I asked specifically to see where the line item came from. If it came from one of the existing sc's or some other work. 14:33:22 sajkaj: Notes apa signed off on a brightness api and asks whether it should be user adjustable? 14:33:31 shawn: The answer was that it came from another row that has specific needs called out. 14:33:34 Lauriat: need to capture that somewhere ... not today's discussion 14:33:43 back to janina for scribing. 14:34:10 Lauriat: is that correct? 14:34:12 jake yes 14:34:58 Lauriat: think we can use this mapping spread sheet to map out ... 14:35:16 Lauriat: anything not text needs text alternative for example 14:35:51 Lauriat: provides braille translation? 14:36:23 janina suggests the AT is responsible for braille, no? 14:37:03 Lauriat: provides support for non binocular needs 14:37:14 Lauriat: don't believe we have coverage 14:37:29 Lauriat: inclined we don't have this 14:37:59 q+ 14:38:09 ack Wilco 14:38:09 Lauriat: asks for sanity check at this point 14:38:17 q+ 14:38:19 Wilco: having a hard time following; asks for screen share? 14:38:38 ack SuzanneTaylor 14:39:15 SuzanneTaylor: wanted to suggest intersections not well understood by a11y industry -- we need some way to mark those 14:39:27 +1 to Suzanne because APA will need that info 14:39:51 SuzanneTaylor: there also may be no way to prove some assertions 14:40:22 Lauriat: agree it would be helpful and believe we will uncover a lot of those 14:40:42 +1 to shawn 14:41:13 SuzanneTaylor: still two different categories; somethings user have told us; other things are ideas we've come up with but have no user validation for 14:41:50 SuzanneTaylor: we need to avoid guidelines that we don't need--that weren't substantiated 14:43:07 Lauriat: believe we can have two versions of this doc for those two purposes 14:43:12 SuzanneTaylor: agrees 14:43:38 JakeAbma_: worries about keeping two representations sync'd 14:44:51 jake: concerned that we not lose track and get others checking; michael proposed a db 14:44:56 Z access! 14:45:29 Lauriat: glad this has been already thought about 14:46:42 Lauriat: notes row 4 as more detailed overall needs 14:48:00 q? 14:48:44 Lauriat: again, trying to see what's covered and what isn't 14:49:07 Lauriat: will eventually help with more than one guideline in the same intersection -- whether multiple could be amalgamated or not 14:49:58 Lauriat: notes text rendering customization as related 14:50:11 q+ 14:50:27 ack Wilco 14:50:49 Wilco: surprising that ext needs to be available; but there's aria-hidden 14:51:06 Lauriat: yes, exactly 14:51:46 Lauriat: brl translation is more implied 14:51:56 Lauriat: inclined to replace with 'AT can access' 14:52:44 janina: Interesting, not sure if it's the time to discuss. The braille one troubled me. ...created a problem for braille, was too focused on TTS user. I don't know how we keep those separate. That may be the issue. 14:53:16 janina notes that aria created problem for brl by focussing too exclusively on tts users 14:53:29 Lauriat: agrees there's much to look at here with use cases 14:53:38 s/that ext/that text 14:54:12 Lauriat: notes zooming in/out -- think it's covered even though there's much to it 14:54:27 Lauriat: so, maybe -- we should check 14:54:35 Lauriat: color not as only means--covered 14:55:23 Lauriat: luminence contrast -- much done, but more to do 14:56:04 Lauriat: things that need distinguishing 14:56:21 Lauriat: the work of building the guidance will help us frame it appropriately 14:56:27 Lauriat: so, a maybe 14:56:30 +1 14:56:56 Lauriat: many instances of "allow for customization" 14:57:41 Lauriat: majority may be covered; but customization brings in more users 14:58:06 janina: We want to think about api's from that perspective, I believe. 14:58:13 janina notes we want to think about apis from that perspective 14:58:48 Lauriat: asks if this has been helpful 14:58:50 +1K 14:59:18 +1 14:59:35 +1 15:00:26 zakim, bye 15:00:26 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Makoto, sajkaj, SuzanneTaylor, jenniferS 15:00:26 Zakim has left #silver 15:00:31 rrsagent, make minutes 15:00:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/24-silver-minutes.html sajkaj 15:03:53 tink has joined #Silver 15:04:19 alastairc has joined #silver 15:04:21 jcraig has joined #silver