15:55:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #editing
15:55:22 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/09/10-editing-irc
15:55:39 <Travis> Present+ Travis Leithead
15:56:46 <Travis> RRSAgent, please make logs public
15:58:13 <whsieh> present+ Wenson Hsieh
15:59:11 <whsieh> hm..the Meeting Invite link on https://github.com/w3c/editing#meetings has a calendar invite to https://meet.google.com/ugu-tuys-krc, but the Google Hangouts link points to https://meet.google.com/pdx-dnmm-cen
15:59:26 <johanneswilm> johanneswilm has joined #editing
15:59:30 <Travis> ? hmm. I guess we pick one?
15:59:34 <comandeer> present+ Tomasz Jakut
15:59:45 <johanneswilm> present+ Johannes Wilm
16:00:14 <Travis> I'm going to join https://meet.google.com/pdx-dnmm-cen
16:01:01 <Mek> present+ Marijn Kruisselbrink
16:01:42 <GameMaker> GameMaker has joined #editing
16:01:51 <GameMaker> present+
16:02:56 <Travis> Action: fix the meeting link so that it points to https://meet.google.com/pdx-dnmm-cen in all places.
16:03:34 <johanneswilm> we start with editing repo
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16:04:37 <Travis> Starting with Agend+ items here: https://github.com/w3c/editing/labels/Agenda%2B
16:04:42 <Travis> Scribe: johanneswilm
16:05:41 <johanneswilm> anything else than github issues?
16:06:04 <johanneswilm> travis: nothing else
16:06:16 <Travis> https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/336
16:06:43 <johanneswilm> travis: they want demo videos for the WG for tpac. do we have any?
16:07:20 <johanneswilm> good because precorded will not show errors like live demos.
16:07:26 <johanneswilm> do we want to do any?
16:07:38 <johanneswilm> we need list by Sep 15
16:08:03 <johanneswilm> not sure there is anything beyond just informing
16:08:14 <BoCupp> present+
16:09:02 <johanneswilm> johannes: make fun video if we don't have anythign serious
16:09:34 <BoCupp> q+
16:10:05 <Travis> q- BoCupp
16:10:11 <johanneswilm> bo: there are sopme samples
16:10:18 <Travis> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2021/Demos_and_Group_updates#Best_Practices_for_Recording_Videos
16:10:27 <johanneswilm> so you can see what other groups have done in the past.
16:10:44 <johanneswilm> I have seen demos of technology mixed in with those
16:11:07 <johanneswilm> we recently shipped virtual keyboard api. we have a few things that are materializing
16:11:16 <johanneswilm> I want to plus+ fun spirit
16:11:28 <johanneswilm> we can help provide material. follow up offline
16:12:49 <Travis> Action: johanneswilm to orchestrate putting together a fun demo plan; working with BoCupp offline on extra specific demos.
16:13:11 <Travis> https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/334
16:13:30 <johanneswilm> travis: contains multiple comments
16:13:50 <johanneswilm> anupam: can give demo
16:14:51 <johanneswilm> [anupam presents clipboard picking api]
16:15:03 <johanneswilm> *pickling api
16:17:24 <whsieh> q+
16:18:11 <whsieh_> whsieh_ has joined #editing
16:21:27 <johanneswilm> q+
16:29:16 <Travis> q?
16:29:51 <Travis> q- whsieh
16:30:16 <johanneswilm> whsieh: ryosuke touched on this. we have same concerns. we are confused we why need this...
16:30:34 <johanneswilm> sldies show a little of that. native apps have to explicitly opt into this
16:30:51 <johanneswilm> native apps can always read non-sanitized data
16:31:03 <johanneswilm> we write two versions on clipboard
16:31:40 <johanneswilm> native app dev: if they ask for default mimetype, they get sanitized version. but they can also get the unsanitized version. that is already possible today
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16:32:03 <johanneswilm> bo: you say just don't use a unsanitized version? you are producing both all the time
16:32:35 <johanneswilm> whsieh: correct. custom formats only show in unsanitized version. standard ones, like html, will always be available as html
16:32:46 <johanneswilm> native app devs need to go through extra steps
16:33:06 <johanneswilm> to get the unsanitized version. it's quite difficult, but we can fix that on our platform.
16:33:59 <johanneswilm> bo: another part is that represenation of this format.... anupam will present next time how json can be used as standard container for unsanitized types
16:34:36 <johanneswilm> bo: winodws has limit on number of formats. could we at least change how we put them on the clipboard even if we keep everything else the same
16:35:16 <johanneswilm> whsieh: interetsing.... one could imagien all browsers on same OS use same picklign system to make it interoperable/compatible
16:35:31 <johanneswilm> whsieh: ryosuke/me: this is mostly a platform consistency problem
16:36:17 <johanneswilm> bo: you might want something that is more OS dependent. but I still think it would be good to have a common way of doing it. maybe we need adjustment for mac.
16:36:36 <johanneswilm> right now there are so many differnet ways of adding it in there and no standard
16:36:54 <johanneswilm> whsieh: this should be solved by the platform. we have discussed how to expose this to devs on mac os
16:37:04 <johanneswilm> whsieh: should be solved by platform
16:37:56 <johanneswilm> bo: when we talk about unsaitized way of adding to clipboard.... wanted to specify that web apps can also read from this
16:38:23 <johanneswilm> can web apps read this extra info, which we oput into the head of the document
16:38:26 <johanneswilm> ?
16:39:09 <johanneswilm> we'd like to have a way to say "give me the contents of the format as it was put there with no cleaning. we need to do that for all the different formats that are non-satndard
16:39:16 <johanneswilm> "
16:39:50 <johanneswilm> whsieh: wouldn't that include data that is problemaitc security wise?
16:40:26 <johanneswilm> bo: no, because it would only be the data that the native app would add as a web format.
16:40:53 <johanneswilm> If web app wants it all without removing scripts, for example, can they do that?
16:41:18 <johanneswilm> whsieh: native apps can do more right now. word adds contact infor in comments for example.
16:41:43 <johanneswilm> we only allow web apps to receive the sanitized version
16:42:06 <johanneswilm> but within the same app, we don't sanitize it
16:42:18 <johanneswilm> there is an origin identifier in pasteboard
16:42:59 <johanneswilm> so that the native editor can add "excel online" as the origin and then it will be allowed to be pasted into that webpage unsanitized
16:43:22 <johanneswilm> bo: is it possible to wildcard origin?
16:43:27 <johanneswilm> to allow pasting everyhwere
16:43:32 <johanneswilm> whsieh: not currently
16:44:02 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: if native app says "this should be pasteable everywhere" then that should also work on web
16:44:09 <johanneswilm> for example photyoshop
16:44:17 <johanneswilm> whsieh: we might be able to consider
16:44:37 <johanneswilm> whsieh: big step to move from one domain to all domains.
16:44:50 <johanneswilm> difficult to say where on the spectrum we should falll
16:45:03 <Travis> q?
16:45:05 <Travis> q-
16:45:07 <Travis> q- johanneswilm
16:45:59 <Travis> johanneswilm: for me, the easiest solution, would be to add the special excel formula into a data- attribute in the sanitized HTML. (Rather than an new clipboard format.)
16:46:44 <Travis> .. I recognize that the data- attribute is sanitized out... seems like the same security risk. From my JS editor perspective, seems like less effort?
16:47:29 <johanneswilm> anupam: that would work with some but not all. for example charts will be translated into just an image
16:48:39 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: I like the idea that sometimes you want a little more metadata. maybe a cors like mechanism
16:48:52 <johanneswilm> whsieh: will continue discussion on this on github
16:49:29 <johanneswilm> anupam: let's continue discussing in github issue
16:49:52 <johanneswilm> bo: we can bring up issues of both read and write in that issue. possibly creating new issues
16:50:07 <Travis> https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3AAgenda%2B
16:50:15 <Travis> https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/issues/150
16:50:49 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: I know there are soms slides, but we only have 10 min
16:51:32 <johanneswilm> anupam: proposal has many issues. [presents setData using the HTML document]
16:53:54 <BoCupp> q+
16:55:39 <johanneswilm> anupam: proposal is to use sanitizer API, et.c
16:55:54 <Travis> q- BoCupp
16:56:03 <whsieh_> q+
16:56:30 <johanneswilm> bo: we have just 5 min. motivation is that we want to standaridze how to write html to clipboard as currently browsers work differently
16:56:53 <johanneswilm> some currently expect to add a full html page,. others just a fragment. this will allow both.
16:57:41 <johanneswilm> bo: at firefox they said "why would you standardize pickling when you haven't even standardized how to put content on clipboard."
16:57:56 <Travis> q- whsieh_
16:57:57 <johanneswilm> s/content/html content
16:58:16 <johanneswilm> whsieh_: think it's great to standardize aspects
16:58:33 <johanneswilm> . but I wonder about dom parser. we would want to strip out things like comments
16:59:16 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: second step is to run it through sanitizer and it has some options like remove comments, etc.
16:59:43 <johanneswilm> he is here proposing to use default settings which will not strip out comments, but that could be discussed
17:00:05 <johanneswilm> whsieh: important to us only to show visible content.
17:00:22 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: would be hard to do on write
17:01:16 <johanneswilm> whsieh_: on webkit we create an entirely new page. we load everything in it using the same rendering engine. then we'd run ctrl+a ctrl+c on that page
17:01:33 <johanneswilm> whsieh_: it's not perfect. but it's something
17:01:54 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: I understand the privacy preserving stuff. I think there are some limits there
17:02:16 <johanneswilm> Travis: we are +2 minutes
17:02:25 <johanneswilm> Travis: we will continue discussion
17:03:07 <johanneswilm> Travis: virtualkeyboard - we wanted to autopublish. if you disagree, please let us know today
17:03:20 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: another meeting in two weeks
17:03:51 <johanneswilm> johanneswilm: would that be our tpac meeting?
17:04:00 <johanneswilm> BoCupp: we can make an issue on that
17:04:18 <johanneswilm> tracis: see you next time
17:04:52 <Travis> RRSAgent, make the minutes
17:04:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/10-editing-minutes.html Travis
17:05:45 <Travis> Travis has changed the topic to: Conversations for the Web Editing Working Group
17:21:13 <Travis> Filed the issue about meeting again in two weeks: https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/337
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21:32:33 <Travis> zakim, this is September W3C Web Editing WG meeting
21:32:33 <Zakim> got it, Travis
21:33:13 <Travis> RRSAgent, please make the minutes
21:33:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/10-editing-minutes.html Travis
21:34:01 <Travis> zakim, tracis is Travis
21:34:01 <Zakim> sorry, Travis, I do not recognize a party named 'tracis'
21:34:22 <Travis> s/tracis/Travis
21:34:59 <Travis> RRSAgent, please make the minutes
21:34:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/10-editing-minutes.html Travis
21:37:21 <Travis> Meeting: September W3C Web Editing WG meeting
21:41:24 <Travis> RRSAgent, please make the minutes
21:41:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/10-editing-minutes.html Travis
21:41:44 <Travis> RRSAgent, generate the minutes
21:41:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/10-editing-minutes.html Travis
21:42:46 <Travis> RRSAgent, publish the minutes
21:42:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/09/10-editing-minutes.html Travis