17:01:37 RRSAgent has joined #aria 17:01:37 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/08/26-aria-irc 17:01:40 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:01:41 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn 17:01:49 meeting: ARIA WG 17:01:54 chair: JamesNurthen 17:02:34 agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/2WqjXHi) 17:02:34 agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3Dl07Oo) 17:02:34 agenda+ [Meaty topic for next week](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) 17:02:34 agenda+ [Updating ARIA 1.2 due to IDL implementations (exit and re-enter CR?)](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1598) - Anything else to add into a new CR draft? 17:02:35 agenda+ Treegrid & posinset - [Should user agents calculate aria-posinset and aria-setsize on treegrid row if there is no author-provided value?](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1602) - [Prohibit rowcount and rowindex on rows in treegrid and prohibit posinset and setsize on rows in tables and grids](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1303) 17:02:35 agenda+ [When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description?](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57) 17:02:36 present+ Joanmarie_Diggs 17:03:36 spectranaut has joined #aria 17:03:41 present+ 17:03:47 CurtBellew has joined #aria 17:04:22 present+ 17:04:49 present+ 17:06:21 harris has joined #aria 17:06:30 present+ 17:07:27 scribe: harris 17:07:33 zakim, agenda? 17:07:33 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda: 17:07:34 present+ 17:07:35 1. [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/2WqjXHi) [from jamesn] 17:07:35 2. [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3Dl07Oo) [from jamesn] 17:07:35 3. [Meaty topic for next week](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) [from jamesn] 17:07:35 4. [Updating ARIA 1.2 due to IDL implementations (exit and re-enter CR?)](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1598) - Anything else to add into a new CR draft? [from jamesn] 17:07:37 5. Treegrid & posinset - [Should user agents calculate aria-posinset and aria-setsize on treegrid row if there is no author-provided 17:07:37 ... value?](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1602) - [Prohibit rowcount and rowindex on rows in treegrid and prohibit posinset and setsize on rows in tables and 17:07:37 ... grids](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1303) [from jamesn] 17:07:40 zakim, next item 17:07:41 6. [When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description?](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57) [from jamesn] 17:07:41 agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/2WqjXHi) -- taken up [from jamesn] 17:07:49 cyns has joined #aria 17:08:01 Greta has joined #Aria 17:08:12 Jemma has joined #aria 17:08:32 present+ 17:08:34 jamesn: "treeitem does not list aria-level as a supported property" seems like something we should fix, anyone disagree? anyone want to fix that? 17:08:42 present + 17:08:48 present+ 17:08:51 scott: assign it to me 17:08:51 agenda? 17:09:59 jamesn: I'm just going to assign these accName tickets to the latest milestone 17:10:22 zakim, next item 17:10:22 agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3Dl07Oo) -- taken up [from jamesn] 17:11:27 jamesn: should we fix our test cases to have a doctype in them? 17:11:42 val: I can make that fix 17:12:00 aria has joined #aria 17:12:05 Present+ 17:12:29 jaunita has joined #aria 17:12:34 present+ 17:12:51 Greta_ has joined #aria 17:13:09 zakim, next item 17:13:09 agendum 3 -- [Meaty topic for next week](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from jamesn] 17:13:41 jamesn: last meeting we agreed to have another meeting on grids and layout grids. That would be september 9th 17:13:52 jamesn: next week we have modal/non-modal dialog 17:14:10 jamesn: any objections to grid on september 9th? Anyone have other topics they'd like covered? 17:14:14 Jory has joined #aria 17:14:26 no objection 17:14:30 zakim, next item 17:14:30 agendum 4 -- [Updating ARIA 1.2 due to IDL implementations (exit and re-enter CR?)](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1598) - Anything else to add into a new CR draft? -- taken 17:14:33 ... up [from jamesn] 17:14:52 jamesn: Joanie, where are we on this? 17:15:03 cyns: you are still blocked by me 17:15:12 jamesn: it seems relatively trivial 17:15:27 cyns: if someone else has time, it'd be great to have someone do the IDL 17:15:42 jamesn: is it essentially rolling back the previous change? 17:15:45 cyns: yes 17:16:11 jamesn: is there anything else we want to sneak into the new draft? 17:16:41 jamesn: we have to remove aria-description from the IDL...is there anything else we want to put into this new draft? Nothing that requires additional tests (unless something is broken) 17:17:00 jamesn: I'd like to keep it as small as possible. 17:17:19 jamesn: do we need to do a CFC, Michael? 17:17:26 MichaelC: I think we should, yes 17:20:15 Jamesn: we can maybe even get a CFC out next week 17:20:17 zakim, next item 17:20:17 agendum 5 -- Treegrid & posinset - [Should user agents calculate aria-posinset and aria-setsize on treegrid row if there is no author-provided 17:20:19 ... value?](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1602) - [Prohibit rowcount and rowindex on rows in treegrid and prohibit posinset and setsize on rows in tables and 17:20:19 ... grids](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1303) -- taken up [from jamesn] 17:21:05 jamesn: Joanie found it unclear whether user agents should calculate aria-posinset and aria-setsize on treegrid row if there is no author-provided value 17:22:26 joanie: I was initially questioning it because I was looking at chrome support. I subsequently did some more digging...one of the things I've found is that matt filed an issue that we should deprecate these on row, and that they are redundant...then I dug more and, no, they are totally different 17:22:28 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1303 17:22:43 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1194 17:24:01 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1442 17:24:51 matt: I vaguely remember this. When you have a set of rows that are hidden because the parent row is collapsed in a tree grid. So those rows that aren't visible, could be captured in the row count. Row count is technically the total number of rows in the table 17:25:18 jamesn: if you have rows in a treegrid that is virtualized so that not all rows are in the DOM, which is why you'd want to explicitly declare the row count 17:25:44 q? 17:26:25 s/looking at chrome support/implementing chrome support/ 17:26:28 matt: I guess I was trying to compare tree and grid when it comes to row count and posinset 17:26:55 jamesn: I agree with Aaron that they're not the same 17:27:04 jamesn: we had this conversation back when we put this feature in 17:27:18 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/558#issuecomment-293885798 17:28:31 matt: This is starting to come back to me! On row index, you are supposed to "number" the rows, right? 17:28:38 jamesn: if they're not all in the DOM, yea 17:28:43 matt's comment in apg "I believe you should be safe using aria-posinset and aria-setsize in a treegrid and not using aria-rowindex and aria-rowcount. However, I will raise this for group discussion in an upcoming authoring practices meeting." 17:29:15 matt: let's say you have 2 collapsed rows and each of them hides 5 so you have 12 rows 17:29:29 matt: are we supposed to say that row 2 comes row 6 when expanded? 17:30:30 jamesn: I wouldn't want anyone to use posinset there. Its only when you're at a child-level that posinset and setsize are relevant 17:30:36 dcaro has joined #aria 17:31:14 matt: you are going to have 2 different sets of numbering that are disconnected. What should authors do? 17:31:28 siri has joined #aria 17:31:30 jamesn: there are in fact 2 different sets though. I don't know how to simplify that 17:31:39 jamesn: has anyone come across a treegrid that works well? 17:32:03 matt: we do have problems trying to communicate trees well with screen readers 17:32:12 matt: maybe we do want all this information 17:33:22 Jemma: can we hear what joanie said at the beginning of this topic? 17:33:29 Jemma: issue 1303's last comment 17:33:50 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1303#issuecomment-902808416 17:35:08 agenda? 17:35:54 jamesn: you only need to use rowcount and row index if you are virtualizing your tree. Otherwise it'll be calculated by the browser 17:36:33 matt: in the case where rows are hidden though...is there an expectation that in a tree grid, when you go from the first visible row to the second visible row, that you would hear row 1 and row 6? 17:36:47 jamesn: no, you should hear row 1 and row 2 until you expand it 17:37:05 matt: but in the spec, it says something different 17:37:21 jamesn: Then I'd agree that there is a problem there 17:39:18 jamesn: we need to refine the spec for treegrids specifically 17:40:31 matt: if you have a virtualized table with 100 rows and 20 of them are visible, are we supposed to do anything with this? I'd say let it be a 100 row table. If you are an AT user, you don't care which ones are visible 17:40:43 jamesn: but that is confusing 17:42:11 SaraH: so far for treegrids, I've only used posinset, setsize and level 17:42:49 s/SaraH/SarahH 17:43:51 present+ jcraig 17:45:26 ScottO: is there a way that it would be consistently known that you've left the nested rows and gone back to the previous row where the numbering has now changed? 17:45:35 Matt: screen reader tells you when you've changed level 17:46:45 Matt: if I pressed the down arrow once and went from row 1 to row 52, that creates a real problem for the developer, you have to know what's hidden before you build this thing? 17:47:07 Matt: you never know how many rows are going to be shown 17:47:32 SarahH: I'm starting to realize why treegrid with virtual cursor is used 17:49:47 mck: matt's suggestion is "We should consider prohibiting aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex on rows in a treegrid. Using them instead of or in addition to aria-posinset and aria-setsize could create problems." from issue 1303 17:50:21 jamesn: we can discuss this on the 16th deep dive 17:51:30 https://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/examples/treegrid/treegrid-1.html 17:51:38 apg tree grid example 17:51:49 jamesn: I think we need either a new issue, or work with it in this issue, in order to clarify the language in the spec to make it clear that rowcount and rowindex are not required when you have intermediate rows that are not expanded 17:53:24 +1 to Jamesn 17:53:34 +1 for clarification 17:53:36 jamesn: do we have consensus that this needs to be cleared up? 17:53:41 jamesn: anyone want to take that on? 17:55:01 jamesn: Joanie, does core aam specify how row count and index are calculated? 17:55:34 joanie: if you have something that implements the platform accessible table interface, it can't have a table that doesn't calculated things like row count. 17:55:53 joanie: even if core aam doesn't say it, there is an implicit rule that you have to calculate it 17:56:25 agenda? 17:58:19 https://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/examples/treegrid/treegrid-1.html 17:59:32 SarahH: the APG example doesn't use row groups 17:59:51 jamesn: you either need an ownership or something like that in order to calculate it relatively easy 18:00:05 jamesn: what does core aam say about these calculations 18:00:27 Otherwise, if the role supports aria-posinset and aria-setsize, process the parent (DOM parent or parent defined by aria-owns), counting items that have the same role. 18:02:42 zakim, who is on the call? 18:02:42 Present: Joanmarie_Diggs, spectranaut, jamesn, MichaelC, harris, StefanS, Jemma, CurtBellew, aria, jaunita, jcraig 18:02:47 zakim, bye 18:02:47 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, spectranaut, jamesn, MichaelC, harris, StefanS, Jemma, CurtBellew, aria, jaunita, jcraig 18:02:47 Zakim has left #aria 18:02:55 rrsagent, make minutes 18:02:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/26-aria-minutes.html harris 18:03:01 rrsagent, stop