16:40:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:40:04 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/08/12-aria-irc
16:40:05 <joanie> meeting: ARIA WG
16:40:06 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:40:07 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), joanie
16:40:15 <joanie> meeting: ARIA WG
16:40:27 <joanie> chair: Joanmarie_Diggs
16:40:27 <joanie> RRSAgent, make log public
16:40:27 <joanie> agenda?
16:40:40 <joanie> clear agenda
16:40:45 <joanie> agenda?
16:41:01 <joanie> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/aria-12Aug-issues)
16:41:01 <joanie> agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/aria-12Aug-prs)
16:41:01 <joanie> agenda+ [Meaty Topic Meeting Reminders](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar)
16:41:04 <joanie> agenda+ [Meaty topic(s) for September](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates)
16:41:06 <joanie> agenda+ Validator Tests: [open issues](https://bit.ly/aira-validator-test-issues) and [status](https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/main/validator-tests#test-files-and-results)
16:41:09 <joanie> agenda+ [Prohibit presentation / none on where it causes conflict resolution](https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1494)
16:41:12 <joanie> agenda+ ARIA Reflection
16:41:19 <joanie> agenda: be done
16:41:19 <agendabot> joanie, sorry, could not get be done (code 400).
16:41:40 <joanie> scribeOptions: -final
16:43:16 <joanie> Regrets: Bryan_Garaventa, William_Tennis
16:43:39 <joanie> Regrets+ James_Nurthen
16:43:50 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:43:56 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:43:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/12-aria-minutes.html joanie
16:48:05 <joanie> s/agenda:be done//
16:48:10 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:48:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/12-aria-minutes.html joanie
17:00:54 <spectranaut> spectranaut has joined #aria
17:02:05 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:02:25 <spectranaut> present+
17:02:32 <cyns> present+
17:02:40 <Irfan> Irfan has joined #aria
17:02:43 <Irfan> present+
17:03:06 <spectranaut> scribe: spectranaut
17:03:18 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:03:18 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/aria-12Aug-issues) -- taken up [from joanie]
17:04:38 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1596
17:04:49 <joanie> Reflecting Element References
17:05:11 <spectranaut> joanie: we are going to talk about this later today
17:05:24 <spectranaut> joanie: we don't know if this is 1.2 yet
17:05:37 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/38
17:05:47 <joanie> Fix prose description for where doc-footnote is allowed
17:06:29 <MarkMcCarthy> MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria
17:06:31 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
17:07:13 <harris> harris has joined #aria
17:07:32 <spectranaut> joanie: this is basically handled, we had a cfc to have a first public working draft (1.1?), a google implementer had issues, matt garish has a fix. We are going to go with the originally approved draft, but immediately publish an updated working draft. We will have to call for consensus for new stages or phases. Updated a working draft is the least amount of hassle
17:07:39 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1587
17:07:52 <joanie> Other menuitem "widgets"? menuitemslider and menuitemspinbutton
17:08:10 <spectranaut> joanie: soooo 1.4?
17:08:39 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
17:08:42 <harris> present+
17:08:42 <spectranaut> james craig: I don't know what a menuitem spinbutton would even look like. Can we ask for screenshots or link to an example
17:09:18 <spectranaut> james craig: I'll comment and ask
17:09:37 <jongund> present+ jongund
17:09:49 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1585
17:10:06 <joanie> Role-specific defaults should be addressed as reflectable in the idl or in normative prose
17:10:55 <spectranaut> joanie: we discussed this last meeting. there has been discussion on the issue. should we talk about this during the aria reflection issue at the end?
17:11:03 <spectranaut> james craig: 1.3
17:11:32 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
17:11:38 <StefanS> present+
17:11:57 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:11:57 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/aria-12Aug-prs) -- taken up [from joanie]
17:12:39 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1595
17:14:07 <spectranaut> jon gund will edit, only one test needed
17:14:08 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/137
17:14:48 <spectranaut> joanie: we need to read and think about this for a deeper discussion
17:15:00 <spectranaut> james craig: the diff is very smaller
17:16:21 <spectranaut> james craig: I think its a bad idea to have the id be the numbering structure, given that we reorder them from time to time, so it's not good for a permenant link. I can make a separate issue for this.
17:16:25 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/pull/39
17:16:52 <spectranaut> there is confusing language in the dpub spec, as discussed in the issue above
17:16:57 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1594
17:17:20 <spectranaut> joanie: I'll review this
17:18:01 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1589
17:18:06 <spectranaut> 1591, 1592, 1594, 1599: these PR are validator tests and need to be reviewed by people working on tests
17:18:39 <spectranaut> joanie: can spectranaut review?
17:18:43 <spectranaut> yes!
17:19:17 <spectranaut> joanie: I'll add spectranaut as reviewer to jon's other tests
17:19:42 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:19:44 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [Meaty Topic Meeting Reminders](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar) -- taken up [from joanie]
17:20:07 <spectranaut> joanie: this is a reminder for everyone
17:20:17 <joanie> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/c0f1febb-eb8a-4f28-8bd4-f34fb0489e73
17:20:28 <spectranaut> joanie: on the 19th we have this meeting ^
17:20:29 <joanie> ARIA Deep Dive - ACCNAME and hidden content continued
17:20:43 <spectranaut> Joanie: we need aaron, james
17:20:50 <spectranaut> cyns: I'll tell him
17:21:21 <joanie> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a2c0e310-1974-423f-8bdb-fe110e89ca7f
17:21:27 <spectranaut> joanie: on the 26th we have this meeting ^
17:21:31 <joanie> ARIA Deep Dive - Layout Grids
17:21:45 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1324
17:21:50 <spectranaut> the agenda includes the related aria github issue
17:22:01 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:22:01 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [Meaty topic(s) for September](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from joanie]
17:22:42 <spectranaut> joanie: options: updates to content editable and tab index
17:22:53 <spectranaut> joanie: or secondary action on composit ewidget roles
17:23:09 <spectranaut> joanie: or role=tree on mobile and touch
17:23:19 <spectranaut> cyns: can we talk about that one?
17:23:23 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1353
17:23:31 <joanie> Should ARIA provide better support for routing in single-page applications?
17:24:12 <spectranaut> joanie: is melanie on the call? she was changing affiliations and should be back in the group
17:26:09 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1210
17:26:18 <joanie> Should dialog/alertdialog be modal or non-modal by default?
17:26:20 <spectranaut> cyns: we could probably make progress on this, so we should schedule it soon
17:27:47 <jcraig> Closing the loop on my action. I included that comment on #1210 in March 2020. https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1210#issuecomment-595376684
17:30:48 <spectranaut> joanie: dialog/alert dialog, should this be a topic after the next two?
17:30:59 <spectranaut> seems like jcraig and cyns agree
17:32:18 <spectranaut> joanie: september 2nd for 1210 (dialog/alert dialog)
17:33:05 <joanie> action: joanie to set up Sept 2 deepdive: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1210
17:33:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2162 - Set up sept 2 deepdive: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1210 [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2021-08-19].
17:33:56 <joanie> AccName trims whitespace but doesn't define which code points are whitespace
17:33:58 <spectranaut> cyncs: can we combine the trim white space with next weeks deep dive on acc name?
17:34:24 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/55
17:35:13 <spectranaut> cyns: if doesn't get talked about next week, this is a good candidate for september 9th
17:36:18 <spectranaut> joanie: there are articles that don't have headings, issue 899
17:36:22 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/899
17:36:27 <spectranaut> jcraig: this is the facebook feed
17:36:50 <spectranaut> jcraig: the article didn't have a label but when you pull up VoiceOVer, you just see "article article article"
17:37:11 <spectranaut> jcraig: the hope is to show something more relevant in the rotor list than the above ^
17:37:31 <spectranaut> jcraig: I wanted to hear from the working group the best way to differentiate these
17:37:51 <spectranaut> jcraig: rather than it be left to the implementors to decide
17:38:05 <spectranaut> cyns: if eric can come I'm less necessary
17:39:03 <spectranaut> jcraig: this doesn't need a deep dive, it's in ARIA, but maybe it should be in acc name
17:39:20 <spectranaut> joanie: its not the same as acc name 132
17:39:21 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/132
17:39:50 <spectranaut> joanie: how can we handle author errors?
17:40:02 <spectranaut> jcraig: not considered an author error to not include a label on article
17:40:12 <spectranaut> jcraig: because it's not provided there is nothing to display
17:40:24 <spectranaut> jcraig: we can reach into the article
17:40:54 <spectranaut> jcraig: this is more about flexibility in find the label/description where it is not required
17:42:23 <spectranaut> joanie: is the conclusion no deepdive?
17:42:28 <spectranaut> jcraig: actually it could be
17:42:50 <spectranaut> jcraig: we discussed drafting a PR, but we should have a PR before the deep dive
17:43:31 <spectranaut> joanie: I don't think acc name needs to be parallel with aria
17:43:40 <spectranaut> joanie: it can progress at it's own rate
17:43:47 <spectranaut> jcraig: I'll try a PR
17:44:16 <spectranaut> joanie: next week can schedule one of these, because we 3 scheduled already
17:45:36 <spectranaut> cyncs: next time lets go through these in reverse order
17:45:58 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:45:58 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Validator Tests: [open issues](https://bit.ly/aira-validator-test-issues) and [status](https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/main/validator-tests#test-files-and-results) --
17:46:01 <Zakim> ... taken up [from joanie]
17:46:09 <spectranaut> zakim, close this item
17:46:09 <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
17:46:10 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:46:10 <Zakim> 6. [Prohibit presentation / none on where it causes conflict resolution](https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1494) [from joanie]
17:46:22 <spectranaut> zakim, take up next item
17:46:22 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [Prohibit presentation / none on where it causes conflict resolution](https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1494) -- taken up [from joanie]
17:46:34 <spectranaut> zakim, close this item
17:46:34 <Zakim> agendum 6 closed
17:46:35 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:46:35 <Zakim> 7. ARIA Reflection [from joanie]
17:46:38 <spectranaut> zakim, next item
17:46:38 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- ARIA Reflection -- taken up [from joanie]
17:46:43 <cyns> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1596
17:47:00 <spectranaut> cyns: I put the relevant bits in this issue
17:47:18 <spectranaut> cyns: currently, the aria mix in IDL only include simple aria values
17:47:23 <spectranaut> cyns: like strings
17:47:45 <spectranaut> cyns: aria-activedescentdent and describedby are not include, id refs or arrays of idrefs
17:48:06 <spectranaut> cyns: there is a consensus on how to reflect this properties. I want to know if everyone is ok with this
17:48:34 <spectranaut> cyns: at a high level, it allows IDLs that can reflect these. it uses a frozen array. it takes a snapshot of the items in the array
17:49:03 <spectranaut> cyns: some edge cases that are unlikely related to triple equals are considered to rare to be concerned with
17:49:25 <spectranaut> cycns: the recent change "not sprouting these attributes" allowed us to get consensus
17:49:55 <spectranaut> cyns: I like the sprouting of attributes, but its more important to have a way to reflect them
17:50:14 <spectranaut> jcraig: it's sometimes impossible to reflect them in strings
17:51:17 <spectranaut> jcraig: aria-labelledby elements property will never generate an aria-labelledby dom reflected content attribute
17:51:39 <spectranaut> jcraig: only strings, it makes it easy to understand from implementors to authors
17:52:08 <spectranaut> jcraig: if aria-lablledby content attribute was in there, but then you update the aria-labelledby attribute, does the content attribute go away?
17:52:16 <spectranaut> jcraig: because it is stale
17:52:33 <spectranaut> jcraig: should I put in aom or aria issue
17:52:52 <spectranaut> jcraig: I'll put in aom
17:53:11 <spectranaut> cyncs: does anyone hate this?
17:54:20 <spectranaut> jcraig: the issue here is that if you need to label something by something in the shadow root, you need the new interface, and if you looked at the dom tree you won't see anything
17:55:01 <spectranaut> jcraig: you have to use the dom interface by checking the attribute
17:55:16 <spectranaut> joanie: the accessible tree will have the correct attributes by default
17:55:53 <spectranaut> cyns: I head no objects, so I assume there is approval
17:56:28 <spectranaut> joanie: what about the nullable strings?
17:57:16 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1585
17:58:23 <spectranaut> joanie: my understanding from trial and error and testing, all user agents act like it's a nullable string. they don't set defaults
17:58:47 <spectranaut> jcraig: I put in the request to say everything is nullable, anna said no
17:59:18 <spectranaut> jcraig: another person I cc'd in the comment has information about this that is necessary
18:00:03 <spectranaut> joanie: if we are allowed to make this change back and magically we have three implementations
18:00:22 <spectranaut> joanie: it would be worth pulling aria 1.1 out of CR, making change, and popping back in
18:00:31 <spectranaut> jcraig: I'm fine with that.
18:00:56 <spectranaut> jcraig: the diff is adding the question marks back in to the string reflective ones
18:01:49 <spectranaut> jcraig: some of the other idl issues are related to non-string data times. like the token values or token lists  (floats or doubles), if we want to claim that we have implemented the right thing and not risk a backwards compatibility change, then we should do these at a same time
18:02:29 <spectranaut> jcraig: we should do on any of the ones that will remain strings, it's safe, but if we update the non strings this would be hard to change in the future
18:02:51 <spectranaut> cyns: will we get pushback from html5 because numbers are represented as strings?
18:02:57 <spectranaut> jcraig: this is already an issue
18:03:16 <spectranaut> jcraig: lets do the easy "?" change on strings
18:03:33 <spectranaut> cyns: token list behave as nullable strings
18:03:52 <spectranaut> cyns: as far as we can tell the current implementation accidentally match the spec
18:04:09 <spectranaut> cyns: we should make the specs match the implementation is the implementation are in agreement
18:04:37 <spectranaut> jcraig: all numbers are implemented as strings
18:05:09 <spectranaut> jcraig: lets do the easy change because it's already implemented, we can change it later and deal with it
18:05:22 <spectranaut> jcraig: the only risk is that someone will complain later
18:06:08 <spectranaut> cyns: the html5 working group will have to accept because all implementors already do it
18:06:18 <spectranaut> cyns: I will take it
18:06:32 <spectranaut> joanie: I think we will have to change some links.
18:06:50 <spectranaut> joanie: in the description text
18:07:03 <spectranaut> joanie: because it currently says things about default vlaue
18:08:09 <spectranaut> joanie: I think we need to do this, but wait until michael cooper and james are back
18:08:22 <joanie> action: Joanie to file issue about IDL and pulling ARIA 1.2 out of CR
18:08:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2163 - File issue about idl and pulling aria 1.2 out of cr [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2021-08-19].
18:08:33 <join_subline> join_subline has joined #aria
18:11:23 <spectranaut> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:11:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/12-aria-minutes.html spectranaut
18:48:00 <join_subline> join_subline has joined #aria
20:53:26 <joanie> joanie has joined #aria