IRC log of aria on 2021-08-12
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 16:40:04 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #aria
- 16:40:04 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/08/12-aria-irc
- 16:40:05 [joanie]
- meeting: ARIA WG
- 16:40:06 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 16:40:07 [Zakim]
- please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), joanie
- 16:40:15 [joanie]
- meeting: ARIA WG
- 16:40:27 [joanie]
- chair: Joanmarie_Diggs
- 16:40:27 [joanie]
- RRSAgent, make log public
- 16:40:27 [joanie]
- agenda?
- 16:40:40 [joanie]
- clear agenda
- 16:40:45 [joanie]
- agenda?
- 16:41:01 [joanie]
- agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/aria-12Aug-issues)
- 16:41:01 [joanie]
- agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/aria-12Aug-prs)
- 16:41:01 [joanie]
- agenda+ [Meaty Topic Meeting Reminders](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar)
- 16:41:04 [joanie]
- agenda+ [Meaty topic(s) for September](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates)
- 16:41:06 [joanie]
- agenda+ Validator Tests: [open issues](https://bit.ly/aira-validator-test-issues) and [status](https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/main/validator-tests#test-files-and-results)
- 16:41:09 [joanie]
- agenda+ [Prohibit presentation / none on where it causes conflict resolution](https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1494)
- 16:41:12 [joanie]
- agenda+ ARIA Reflection
- 16:41:19 [joanie]
- agenda: be done
- 16:41:19 [agendabot]
- joanie, sorry, could not get be done (code 400).
- 16:41:40 [joanie]
- scribeOptions: -final
- 16:43:16 [joanie]
- Regrets: Bryan_Garaventa, William_Tennis
- 16:43:39 [joanie]
- Regrets+ James_Nurthen
- 16:43:50 [joanie]
- present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
- 16:43:56 [joanie]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 16:43:56 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/12-aria-minutes.html joanie
- 16:48:05 [joanie]
- s/agenda:be done//
- 16:48:10 [joanie]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 16:48:10 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/12-aria-minutes.html joanie
- 17:00:54 [spectranaut]
- spectranaut has joined #aria
- 17:02:05 [cyns]
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- present+
- 17:02:32 [cyns]
- present+
- 17:02:40 [Irfan]
- Irfan has joined #aria
- 17:02:43 [Irfan]
- present+
- 17:03:06 [spectranaut]
- scribe: spectranaut
- 17:03:18 [spectranaut]
- zakim, next item
- 17:03:18 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/aria-12Aug-issues) -- taken up [from joanie]
- 17:04:38 [joanie]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1596
- 17:04:49 [joanie]
- Reflecting Element References
- 17:05:11 [spectranaut]
- joanie: we are going to talk about this later today
- 17:05:24 [spectranaut]
- joanie: we don't know if this is 1.2 yet
- 17:05:37 [joanie]
- https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/38
- 17:05:47 [joanie]
- Fix prose description for where doc-footnote is allowed
- 17:06:29 [MarkMcCarthy]
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- present+
- 17:07:13 [harris]
- harris has joined #aria
- 17:07:32 [spectranaut]
- joanie: this is basically handled, we had a cfc to have a first public working draft (1.1?), a google implementer had issues, matt garish has a fix. We are going to go with the originally approved draft, but immediately publish an updated working draft. We will have to call for consensus for new stages or phases. Updated a working draft is the least amount of hassle
- 17:07:39 [joanie]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1587
- 17:07:52 [joanie]
- Other menuitem "widgets"? menuitemslider and menuitemspinbutton
- 17:08:10 [spectranaut]
- joanie: soooo 1.4?
- 17:08:39 [jongund]
- jongund has joined #aria
- 17:08:42 [harris]
- present+
- 17:08:42 [spectranaut]
- james craig: I don't know what a menuitem spinbutton would even look like. Can we ask for screenshots or link to an example
- 17:09:18 [spectranaut]
- james craig: I'll comment and ask
- 17:09:37 [jongund]
- present+ jongund
- 17:09:49 [joanie]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1585
- 17:10:06 [joanie]
- Role-specific defaults should be addressed as reflectable in the idl or in normative prose
- 17:10:55 [spectranaut]
- joanie: we discussed this last meeting. there has been discussion on the issue. should we talk about this during the aria reflection issue at the end?
- 17:11:03 [spectranaut]
- james craig: 1.3
- 17:11:32 [StefanS]
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- present+
- 17:11:57 [spectranaut]
- zakim, next item
- 17:11:57 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/aria-12Aug-prs) -- taken up [from joanie]
- 17:12:39 [joanie]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1595
- 17:14:07 [spectranaut]
- jon gund will edit, only one test needed
- 17:14:08 [joanie]
- https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/137
- 17:14:48 [spectranaut]
- joanie: we need to read and think about this for a deeper discussion
- 17:15:00 [spectranaut]
- james craig: the diff is very smaller
- 17:16:21 [spectranaut]
- james craig: I think its a bad idea to have the id be the numbering structure, given that we reorder them from time to time, so it's not good for a permenant link. I can make a separate issue for this.
- 17:16:25 [joanie]
- https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/pull/39
- 17:16:52 [spectranaut]
- there is confusing language in the dpub spec, as discussed in the issue above
- 17:16:57 [joanie]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1594
- 17:17:20 [spectranaut]
- joanie: I'll review this
- 17:18:01 [joanie]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1589
- 17:18:06 [spectranaut]
- 1591, 1592, 1594, 1599: these PR are validator tests and need to be reviewed by people working on tests
- 17:18:39 [spectranaut]
- joanie: can spectranaut review?
- 17:18:43 [spectranaut]
- yes!
- 17:19:17 [spectranaut]
- joanie: I'll add spectranaut as reviewer to jon's other tests
- 17:19:42 [spectranaut]
- zakim, next item
- 17:19:44 [Zakim]
- agendum 3 -- [Meaty Topic Meeting Reminders](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar) -- taken up [from joanie]
- 17:20:07 [spectranaut]
- joanie: this is a reminder for everyone
- 17:20:17 [joanie]
- https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/c0f1febb-eb8a-4f28-8bd4-f34fb0489e73
- 17:20:28 [spectranaut]
- joanie: on the 19th we have this meeting ^
- 17:20:29 [joanie]
- ARIA Deep Dive - ACCNAME and hidden content continued
- 17:20:43 [spectranaut]
- Joanie: we need aaron, james
- 17:20:50 [spectranaut]
- cyns: I'll tell him
- 17:21:21 [joanie]
- https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a2c0e310-1974-423f-8bdb-fe110e89ca7f
- 17:21:27 [spectranaut]
- joanie: on the 26th we have this meeting ^
- 17:21:31 [joanie]
- ARIA Deep Dive - Layout Grids
- 17:21:45 [joanie]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1324
- 17:21:50 [spectranaut]
- the agenda includes the related aria github issue
- 17:22:01 [spectranaut]
- zakim, next item
- 17:22:01 [Zakim]
- agendum 4 -- [Meaty topic(s) for September](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from joanie]
- 17:22:42 [spectranaut]
- joanie: options: updates to content editable and tab index
- 17:22:53 [spectranaut]
- joanie: or secondary action on composit ewidget roles
- 17:23:09 [spectranaut]
- joanie: or role=tree on mobile and touch
- 17:23:19 [spectranaut]
- cyns: can we talk about that one?
- 17:23:23 [joanie]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1353
- 17:23:31 [joanie]
- Should ARIA provide better support for routing in single-page applications?
- 17:24:12 [spectranaut]
- joanie: is melanie on the call? she was changing affiliations and should be back in the group
- 17:26:09 [joanie]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1210
- 17:26:18 [joanie]
- Should dialog/alertdialog be modal or non-modal by default?
- 17:26:20 [spectranaut]
- cyns: we could probably make progress on this, so we should schedule it soon
- 17:27:47 [jcraig]
- Closing the loop on my action. I included that comment on #1210 in March 2020. https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1210#issuecomment-595376684
- 17:30:48 [spectranaut]
- joanie: dialog/alert dialog, should this be a topic after the next two?
- 17:30:59 [spectranaut]
- seems like jcraig and cyns agree
- 17:32:18 [spectranaut]
- joanie: september 2nd for 1210 (dialog/alert dialog)
- 17:33:05 [joanie]
- action: joanie to set up Sept 2 deepdive: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1210
- 17:33:06 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-2162 - Set up sept 2 deepdive: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1210 [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2021-08-19].
- 17:33:56 [joanie]
- AccName trims whitespace but doesn't define which code points are whitespace
- 17:33:58 [spectranaut]
- cyncs: can we combine the trim white space with next weeks deep dive on acc name?
- 17:34:24 [joanie]
- https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/55
- 17:35:13 [spectranaut]
- cyns: if doesn't get talked about next week, this is a good candidate for september 9th
- 17:36:18 [spectranaut]
- joanie: there are articles that don't have headings, issue 899
- 17:36:22 [joanie]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/899
- 17:36:27 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: this is the facebook feed
- 17:36:50 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: the article didn't have a label but when you pull up VoiceOVer, you just see "article article article"
- 17:37:11 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: the hope is to show something more relevant in the rotor list than the above ^
- 17:37:31 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: I wanted to hear from the working group the best way to differentiate these
- 17:37:51 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: rather than it be left to the implementors to decide
- 17:38:05 [spectranaut]
- cyns: if eric can come I'm less necessary
- 17:39:03 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: this doesn't need a deep dive, it's in ARIA, but maybe it should be in acc name
- 17:39:20 [spectranaut]
- joanie: its not the same as acc name 132
- 17:39:21 [joanie]
- https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/132
- 17:39:50 [spectranaut]
- joanie: how can we handle author errors?
- 17:40:02 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: not considered an author error to not include a label on article
- 17:40:12 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: because it's not provided there is nothing to display
- 17:40:24 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: we can reach into the article
- 17:40:54 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: this is more about flexibility in find the label/description where it is not required
- 17:42:23 [spectranaut]
- joanie: is the conclusion no deepdive?
- 17:42:28 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: actually it could be
- 17:42:50 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: we discussed drafting a PR, but we should have a PR before the deep dive
- 17:43:31 [spectranaut]
- joanie: I don't think acc name needs to be parallel with aria
- 17:43:40 [spectranaut]
- joanie: it can progress at it's own rate
- 17:43:47 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: I'll try a PR
- 17:44:16 [spectranaut]
- joanie: next week can schedule one of these, because we 3 scheduled already
- 17:45:36 [spectranaut]
- cyncs: next time lets go through these in reverse order
- 17:45:58 [spectranaut]
- zakim, next item
- 17:45:58 [Zakim]
- agendum 5 -- Validator Tests: [open issues](https://bit.ly/aira-validator-test-issues) and [status](https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/main/validator-tests#test-files-and-results) --
- 17:46:01 [Zakim]
- ... taken up [from joanie]
- 17:46:09 [spectranaut]
- zakim, close this item
- 17:46:09 [Zakim]
- agendum 5 closed
- 17:46:10 [Zakim]
- I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 17:46:10 [Zakim]
- 6. [Prohibit presentation / none on where it causes conflict resolution](https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1494) [from joanie]
- 17:46:22 [spectranaut]
- zakim, take up next item
- 17:46:22 [Zakim]
- agendum 6 -- [Prohibit presentation / none on where it causes conflict resolution](https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1494) -- taken up [from joanie]
- 17:46:34 [spectranaut]
- zakim, close this item
- 17:46:34 [Zakim]
- agendum 6 closed
- 17:46:35 [Zakim]
- I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
- 17:46:35 [Zakim]
- 7. ARIA Reflection [from joanie]
- 17:46:38 [spectranaut]
- zakim, next item
- 17:46:38 [Zakim]
- agendum 7 -- ARIA Reflection -- taken up [from joanie]
- 17:46:43 [cyns]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1596
- 17:47:00 [spectranaut]
- cyns: I put the relevant bits in this issue
- 17:47:18 [spectranaut]
- cyns: currently, the aria mix in IDL only include simple aria values
- 17:47:23 [spectranaut]
- cyns: like strings
- 17:47:45 [spectranaut]
- cyns: aria-activedescentdent and describedby are not include, id refs or arrays of idrefs
- 17:48:06 [spectranaut]
- cyns: there is a consensus on how to reflect this properties. I want to know if everyone is ok with this
- 17:48:34 [spectranaut]
- cyns: at a high level, it allows IDLs that can reflect these. it uses a frozen array. it takes a snapshot of the items in the array
- 17:49:03 [spectranaut]
- cyns: some edge cases that are unlikely related to triple equals are considered to rare to be concerned with
- 17:49:25 [spectranaut]
- cycns: the recent change "not sprouting these attributes" allowed us to get consensus
- 17:49:55 [spectranaut]
- cyns: I like the sprouting of attributes, but its more important to have a way to reflect them
- 17:50:14 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: it's sometimes impossible to reflect them in strings
- 17:51:17 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: aria-labelledby elements property will never generate an aria-labelledby dom reflected content attribute
- 17:51:39 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: only strings, it makes it easy to understand from implementors to authors
- 17:52:08 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: if aria-lablledby content attribute was in there, but then you update the aria-labelledby attribute, does the content attribute go away?
- 17:52:16 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: because it is stale
- 17:52:33 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: should I put in aom or aria issue
- 17:52:52 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: I'll put in aom
- 17:53:11 [spectranaut]
- cyncs: does anyone hate this?
- 17:54:20 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: the issue here is that if you need to label something by something in the shadow root, you need the new interface, and if you looked at the dom tree you won't see anything
- 17:55:01 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: you have to use the dom interface by checking the attribute
- 17:55:16 [spectranaut]
- joanie: the accessible tree will have the correct attributes by default
- 17:55:53 [spectranaut]
- cyns: I head no objects, so I assume there is approval
- 17:56:28 [spectranaut]
- joanie: what about the nullable strings?
- 17:57:16 [joanie]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1585
- 17:58:23 [spectranaut]
- joanie: my understanding from trial and error and testing, all user agents act like it's a nullable string. they don't set defaults
- 17:58:47 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: I put in the request to say everything is nullable, anna said no
- 17:59:18 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: another person I cc'd in the comment has information about this that is necessary
- 18:00:03 [spectranaut]
- joanie: if we are allowed to make this change back and magically we have three implementations
- 18:00:22 [spectranaut]
- joanie: it would be worth pulling aria 1.1 out of CR, making change, and popping back in
- 18:00:31 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: I'm fine with that.
- 18:00:56 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: the diff is adding the question marks back in to the string reflective ones
- 18:01:49 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: some of the other idl issues are related to non-string data times. like the token values or token lists (floats or doubles), if we want to claim that we have implemented the right thing and not risk a backwards compatibility change, then we should do these at a same time
- 18:02:29 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: we should do on any of the ones that will remain strings, it's safe, but if we update the non strings this would be hard to change in the future
- 18:02:51 [spectranaut]
- cyns: will we get pushback from html5 because numbers are represented as strings?
- 18:02:57 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: this is already an issue
- 18:03:16 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: lets do the easy "?" change on strings
- 18:03:33 [spectranaut]
- cyns: token list behave as nullable strings
- 18:03:52 [spectranaut]
- cyns: as far as we can tell the current implementation accidentally match the spec
- 18:04:09 [spectranaut]
- cyns: we should make the specs match the implementation is the implementation are in agreement
- 18:04:37 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: all numbers are implemented as strings
- 18:05:09 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: lets do the easy change because it's already implemented, we can change it later and deal with it
- 18:05:22 [spectranaut]
- jcraig: the only risk is that someone will complain later
- 18:06:08 [spectranaut]
- cyns: the html5 working group will have to accept because all implementors already do it
- 18:06:18 [spectranaut]
- cyns: I will take it
- 18:06:32 [spectranaut]
- joanie: I think we will have to change some links.
- 18:06:50 [spectranaut]
- joanie: in the description text
- 18:07:03 [spectranaut]
- joanie: because it currently says things about default vlaue
- 18:08:09 [spectranaut]
- joanie: I think we need to do this, but wait until michael cooper and james are back
- 18:08:22 [joanie]
- action: Joanie to file issue about IDL and pulling ARIA 1.2 out of CR
- 18:08:23 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-2163 - File issue about idl and pulling aria 1.2 out of cr [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2021-08-19].
- 18:08:33 [join_subline]
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- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 18:11:23 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/12-aria-minutes.html spectranaut
- 18:48:00 [join_subline]
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- joanie has joined #aria