IRC log of aria-apg on 2021-08-03
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 17:48:36 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
- 17:48:36 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/08/03-aria-apg-irc
- 17:48:49 [Matt_King]
- rrsagent, make log public
- 17:48:58 [Matt_King]
- present+
- 17:49:06 [Matt_King]
- zakim, clear agenda
- 17:49:06 [Zakim]
- agenda cleared
- 17:49:21 [Matt_King]
- MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
- 17:49:36 [Matt_King]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 17:49:36 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/03-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
- 17:58:18 [Jemma]
- present+
- 17:59:14 [MarkMcCarthy]
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- 17:59:25 [MarkMcCarthy]
- present+
- 18:00:29 [isaacdurazo]
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- 18:01:12 [jongund]
- jongund has joined #aria-apg
- 18:02:15 [Jemma]
- Meeting agenda: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/August-3,-2021-Agenda
- 18:02:41 [jesdaigle_]
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- 18:02:52 [jesdaigle_]
- +present
- 18:02:57 [Matt_King]
- CHAIR: Jemma
- 18:02:59 [Jemma]
- zakim, choose a victim
- 18:02:59 [Zakim]
- Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose jamesn
- 18:03:25 [Rich_Noah]
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- 18:03:25 [jesdaigle_]
- present+
- 18:03:39 [Rich_Noah]
- present+
- 18:03:41 [isaacdurazo]
- present+
- 18:03:52 [jongund]
- present+ jongund
- 18:04:33 [Jemma]
- zakim, choose a victim
- 18:04:34 [Zakim]
- Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose present
- 18:04:55 [MarkMcCarthy]
- scribe: MarkMcCarthy
- 18:05:20 [MarkMcCarthy]
- agenda?
- 18:06:01 [MarkMcCarthy]
- TOPIC: ARIA APG Working Draft Publication Schedule
- 18:06:35 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: the plan is to publish APG 1.2 when ARIA 1.2 is a Proposed Recommendation
- 18:06:50 [CurtBellew]
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- 18:07:01 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: ARIA 1.2 has unforuntately been delayed, still waiting on some implementations
- 18:07:17 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: jamesn took a look recently, and found that we're almost there
- 18:07:34 [CurtBellew]
- present+
- 18:07:55 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: ARIA spec might be moving forward soon which means we can move forward, even if it's a little ahead of the PR
- 18:08:21 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: does that answer your questions jongund?
- 18:08:40 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jongund: what's there now?
- 18:09:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: we have the TR. but i've been pointing people to the editor's draft, the only thing that's missing are the changes in the first section and the changelog
- 18:09:34 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jongund: seems strange to me that people come to W3C and this is what they get
- 18:09:49 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: the redesign should help with this, so it'll be a website instead of a note
- 18:10:06 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: APG 1.2 will be the last version that's TR
- 18:11:23 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: as 1.3 or 1.4 stuff gets added in, as long as it's clear it's newer content it'll be good. longer term goal is to makee sure the ARiA AT support tables are in there
- 18:12:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: as soon as 1.2 is out there, we'll be working on the redesign in parallel, and once THAT'S launched, then we won't have to worry about this again
- 18:12:25 [MarkMcCarthy]
- jongund: the wai-aria-practices-1.2 URL just won't get updated at that point, then?
- 18:12:37 [MarkMcCarthy]
- Matt_King: once the redesign is done, all those URLs will be "deprecated" and re-linked
- 18:12:46 [MarkMcCarthy]
- s/re-linked/redirected
- 18:13:02 [Jemma]
- q+ to consider stop-gap measure
- 18:13:46 [MarkMcCarthy]
- ack jamesn
- 18:13:46 [Zakim]
- jamesn, you wanted to say that the on color in WHCM should he "Highlight" and the off should be the default color
- 18:14:54 [MarkMcCarthy_]
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- 18:15:13 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: and we'll make it clear that we let people know that the current stuff is out of date, once it is
- 18:15:16 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- ack jemma
- 18:15:16 [Zakim]
- Jemma, you wanted to consider stop-gap measure
- 18:15:47 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Jemma: jamesn is doing a lot of heavy lifting on the ARIA stuff to get it up to date. is there anything we can do to be "done" in the meantime?
- 18:15:58 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- scribe: MarkMcCarthy_
- 18:16:18 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: that's a good question for the ARIA WG or the editors
- 18:17:07 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: we're basically making our own plan so we have an evergreen site that we can more effectively edit and serve
- 18:17:20 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: especially since our work is different from spec woork
- 18:17:25 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- s/woork/work
- 18:17:50 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Jemma: what if we check in again in a month, if 1.2 isn't published by then?
- 18:18:02 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: yeah, can add a monthly agendum, and also bring it up in the editors call
- 18:18:24 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- TOPIC: ARIA APG Redesign Project Update
- 18:18:39 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Jemma: good segue to what'll save us from this problem! *wink*
- 18:19:02 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Jemma: any updates for us today Issac?
- 18:19:09 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- isaacdurazo: yes!
- 18:19:35 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- isaacdurazo: Alex is putting together the new site and template, though it's not ready to share yet it's close.
- 18:20:16 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- isaacdurazo: by the end of this week I think we'll have a link to share
- 18:20:26 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- isaacdurazo: happy to discuss that next tuesday
- 18:20:55 [Jemma]
- https://github.com/w3c/apg-redesign
- 18:21:11 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- isaacdurazo: i'm also planning the first usability study for this, for which i'd also like to plan a feedback gathering/group/meetup with stakeholders (us, here) and external folx, like devs or designers
- 18:21:34 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- isaacdurazo: thinking the a11y slack community might be a good place to pull participants from, especially external folx
- 18:22:01 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- isaacdurazo: goal is to start collecting feedback from us, here, week of August 16th
- 18:22:15 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- isaacdurazo: usability study the following week, August 23rd
- 18:22:27 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- isaacdurazo: updates will be published in the redesign repo
- 18:22:38 [Jemma]
- q+
- 18:22:59 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- isaacdurazo: nothing _big_ to share, but exciting news nonetheless. and something to actually share next week!
- 18:23:37 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: i want to make sure everyone understands 1) this is intended to be a starting point to be iterated on - this isn't final.
- 18:24:58 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: 2) we made a decision to not make it dynamic. meaning - when we push content to the editors branch, it will NOT update the site. the site will be a snapshot - we're not investing in making it live updated at this time.
- 18:25:40 [Jemma]
- I have two questions - 1) timeframe after UX design, 2) content inventory
- 18:25:45 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- ack jem
- 18:26:28 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Jemma: i think Matt_King answered most of my first question. but after the UX design, what's the timeline for everything else?
- 18:26:52 [siri]
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- 18:26:58 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Jemma: 2) we have lots of good indicies, etc., so how are we going to update that information that's not a core part of the structure? like inventories?
- 18:27:06 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: that'll be part of the content migration
- 18:27:17 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 18:27:17 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/03-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy_
- 18:27:42 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: i don't think we have the full answers to that yet, lots of discovery to do still
- 18:28:13 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: after we're a little further along in the information architecture, we'll have a bit better idea of the size of content needing migration
- 18:29:15 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- isaacdurazo: i think a good point is that, after the feedback from us and the studies, is to determine the scope of what's getting migrated and when
- 18:29:35 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: which leads to my first question - do we want to make any changes prior to your study?
- 18:30:34 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: e.g., we have a few pages for each item (pattern, example, etc.). do we want to break those out further?
- 18:30:45 [Jemma]
- mck: thinking about "fundamental practice"
- 18:31:12 [Jemma]
- s/about/about adding third section,
- 18:31:15 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: i love the idea for the patterns page to use cards. i was wondering if we'd have a fundamental practices page that'd have these too, that could bring various cards together to introduce people to further topics
- 18:31:52 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: also wondering if we could have some iconography that'd draw people's attention to each sort of fundamental to help visually categorize things
- 18:32:31 [Jemma]
- mck: "sea of practices"
- 18:32:48 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- isaacdurazo: i like those ideas. i was working on the patterns page just this week - it's a huge difference to look with the cards instead of a wall of text. i think that it'd be good to have that fundamental card set too
- 18:32:58 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- isaacdurazo: let me talk with Alex and see what we can do
- 18:33:13 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: if it's a good idea and it delays things, that's fine!
- 18:33:29 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- isaacdurazo: once i saw the difference in text vs. "gallery" view, it was huge and i think it'll be so worth it
- 18:33:58 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: i wonder if others would agree that this is a good way to go about things, and go along with your ideas jongund
- 18:34:11 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- jongund: i'm looking forward to seeing the prototype, it's a little hard to visualize
- 18:34:33 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Jemma: any thoughts from CurtBellew, siri, or Bryan?
- 18:34:38 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- present+ BryanGaraventa
- 18:35:45 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- siri: one thing _I'd_ like is to be able to quickly check if something is global or not, or what a particular attribute can be used on. is it a state, property?
- 18:36:05 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- siri: for instance, can this "aria-current" thing be used on a list? Button? Anywhere? etc.
- 18:36:40 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: yes, that's a great idea! we haven't gotten to that section yet, but having a common presentation will be really helpful for APG to provide
- 18:37:15 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: for anyone who hasn't commented, and if you'd like to, issue 1 in the redesign repo is a good place to look at the current architecture description and leave your thoughts
- 18:37:21 [Jemma]
- https://github.com/w3c/apg-redesign/issues/1
- 18:38:06 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Bryan: I haven't had much time to look at it yet, but is there something specific I Could check out?
- 18:38:31 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: it's a more general description of the architecture. if you'd rather wait for a functioning prototype, that's fine
- 18:39:35 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- CurtBellew: I have nothing specific. What Siri said makes lots of sense to me and I'd like that too
- 18:39:40 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- TOPIC: PR Review
- 18:40:06 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Jemma: we'll review as many of these together before the end of the meeting
- 18:40:10 [Jemma]
- https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/switch-checkbox/examples/switch/switch-checkbox.html
- 18:40:11 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- PR 1895
- 18:40:41 [Jemma]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1895
- 18:41:09 [Jemma]
- https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/switch-button/examples/switch/switch-button.html
- 18:41:22 [Jemma]
- https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/switch/examples/switch/switch.html
- 18:41:39 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: question for the group/jon on the switch PRs - when we did different forms of the nav menus (menubar, disclosure, tree, etc.), we made the content the same to facilitate comparison. should we do that with the switches too?
- 18:42:18 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: maybe an argument against would be showing a variety of places switches are appropriate, but it seems like it should be a purposeful decision one way or another
- 18:42:33 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- s/against/against that
- 18:43:07 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- jongund: i don't have a strong opinion about it
- 18:43:29 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Jemma: it makes sense to me to have the same _content_ with different coding
- 18:44:22 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- siri: having more than oone option helps them pick something, but if it's confusing, one thing might be easier
- 18:44:32 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- s/oone /one
- 18:46:48 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: maybe shortening the titles to "switch based on HTML [element]" would help
- 18:48:54 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- MarkMcCarthy_: as a teacher, having different _content_ helps differentiate the examples, along with a more concise title
- 18:49:23 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: oh that does make lots of sense!
- 18:49:58 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Jemma: having different content could help with showcasing different usecases
- 18:50:34 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: these are good points! thinking of the nav examples, they look much different in their implementation when side by side.
- 18:51:27 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Jemma: thinking of the redesign again, there's value in exposing different content
- 18:51:50 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: i like Mark's points. if others are neutral as far as editorial content goes, i'll go his suggestion
- 18:53:35 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Jemma: focusing on the visual reviews of these switches, then...
- 18:53:50 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: are we happy with focus styling with mouse/keyboard?
- 18:53:54 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- MarkMcCarthy_: yep
- 18:54:39 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: keyboard is working with enter and space, this is a checkbox so we're getting that for free, jongund((?)
- 18:54:44 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- jongund: we're scripting the enter key
- 18:54:49 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: because the pattern says to?
- 18:55:16 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: oh this is a new pattern!
- 18:57:16 [Jemma]
- there are event key handler for enter both examples, checkbox and div example
- 18:58:05 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Jemma: so are we deciding that we don't need to program the enter key interaction?
- 18:58:19 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Bryan: You'll actually get some of that by default anyway, so maybe it's better for us to keep it
- 19:00:18 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: Windows toggle switches (like airplane mode) don't respond to enter key
- 19:01:47 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- MarkMcCarthy_: correct, though they look like slide switches
- 19:02:08 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- zakim, who is here
- 19:02:08 [Zakim]
- MarkMcCarthy_, you need to end that query with '?'
- 19:02:11 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- zakim, who is here?
- 19:02:11 [Zakim]
- Present: Matt_King, Jemma, MarkMcCarthy, Rich_Noah, jamesn, jongund, present, siri, bryangaraventa, CurtBellew, jesdaigle_, isaacdurazo
- 19:02:11 [Jemma]
- Group is checking enter key implement in different OS, window and mac
- 19:02:14 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see siri, MarkMcCarthy_, CurtBellew, Rich_Noah, jesdaigle_, jongund, isaacdurazo, RRSAgent, Matt_King, Jemma, github-bot, MichaelC, Zakim, trackbot, s3ththompson, ZoeBijl,
- 19:02:14 [Zakim]
- ... jamesn
- 19:02:35 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 19:02:35 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/03-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy_
- 19:02:56 [Matt_King_]
- Matt_King_ has joined #aria-apg
- 19:03:29 [Jemma]
- mck: If window does not support enter key then we will only support space key for APG example consistency
- 19:03:35 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: If Windows and Mac don't support the Enter key, then we won't either. Which would be weird if it was a button I suppose, but better to keep things consistent.
- 19:04:13 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: but we wouldn't want to block Enter on a switch made from a button, though?
- 19:04:26 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Group: No
- 19:05:08 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: And it's not so much that we have to mimic the OSs, but we should have some rationale as a TF
- 19:06:27 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: either way, no objections to the visual design! that's good. I'd like some input on what MacOS does for switches re: the Enter key
- 19:06:59 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- jongund: the best way might be to say that Enter is optional
- 19:07:05 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: Oh! That's a really good idea
- 19:07:10 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- jongund: and we do that in other places
- 19:07:15 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: Very true!
- 19:07:27 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- jongund: should we update things to do that then?
- 19:08:33 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- Matt_King: I'm leaning that way, because we can remove keyboard handling too
- 19:08:41 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- jongund: I can make those changes then, no problem
- 19:08:52 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 19:08:52 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/03-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy_
- 19:09:19 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- regrets+ Sarah_Higley
- 19:09:20 [MarkMcCarthy_]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 19:09:20 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/03-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy_