17:48:36 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 17:48:36 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/08/03-aria-apg-irc 17:48:49 rrsagent, make log public 17:48:58 present+ 17:49:06 zakim, clear agenda 17:49:06 agenda cleared 17:49:21 MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 17:49:36 rrsagent, make minutes 17:49:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/03-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King 17:58:18 present+ 17:59:14 MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria-apg 17:59:25 present+ 18:00:29 isaacdurazo has joined #aria-apg 18:01:12 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:02:15 Meeting agenda: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/August-3,-2021-Agenda 18:02:41 jesdaigle_ has joined #aria-apg 18:02:52 +present 18:02:57 CHAIR: Jemma 18:02:59 zakim, choose a victim 18:02:59 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose jamesn 18:03:25 Rich_Noah has joined #aria-apg 18:03:25 present+ 18:03:39 present+ 18:03:41 present+ 18:03:52 present+ jongund 18:04:33 zakim, choose a victim 18:04:34 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose present 18:04:55 scribe: MarkMcCarthy 18:05:20 agenda? 18:06:01 TOPIC: ARIA APG Working Draft Publication Schedule 18:06:35 Matt_King: the plan is to publish APG 1.2 when ARIA 1.2 is a Proposed Recommendation 18:06:50 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 18:07:01 Matt_King: ARIA 1.2 has unforuntately been delayed, still waiting on some implementations 18:07:17 Matt_King: jamesn took a look recently, and found that we're almost there 18:07:34 present+ 18:07:55 Matt_King: ARIA spec might be moving forward soon which means we can move forward, even if it's a little ahead of the PR 18:08:21 Matt_King: does that answer your questions jongund? 18:08:40 jongund: what's there now? 18:09:02 Matt_King: we have the TR. but i've been pointing people to the editor's draft, the only thing that's missing are the changes in the first section and the changelog 18:09:34 jongund: seems strange to me that people come to W3C and this is what they get 18:09:49 Matt_King: the redesign should help with this, so it'll be a website instead of a note 18:10:06 Matt_King: APG 1.2 will be the last version that's TR 18:11:23 Matt_King: as 1.3 or 1.4 stuff gets added in, as long as it's clear it's newer content it'll be good. longer term goal is to makee sure the ARiA AT support tables are in there 18:12:02 Matt_King: as soon as 1.2 is out there, we'll be working on the redesign in parallel, and once THAT'S launched, then we won't have to worry about this again 18:12:25 jongund: the wai-aria-practices-1.2 URL just won't get updated at that point, then? 18:12:37 Matt_King: once the redesign is done, all those URLs will be "deprecated" and re-linked 18:12:46 s/re-linked/redirected 18:13:02 q+ to consider stop-gap measure 18:13:46 ack jamesn 18:13:46 jamesn, you wanted to say that the on color in WHCM should he "Highlight" and the off should be the default color 18:14:54 MarkMcCarthy_ has joined #aria-apg 18:15:13 Matt_King: and we'll make it clear that we let people know that the current stuff is out of date, once it is 18:15:16 ack jemma 18:15:16 Jemma, you wanted to consider stop-gap measure 18:15:47 Jemma: jamesn is doing a lot of heavy lifting on the ARIA stuff to get it up to date. is there anything we can do to be "done" in the meantime? 18:15:58 scribe: MarkMcCarthy_ 18:16:18 Matt_King: that's a good question for the ARIA WG or the editors 18:17:07 Matt_King: we're basically making our own plan so we have an evergreen site that we can more effectively edit and serve 18:17:20 Matt_King: especially since our work is different from spec woork 18:17:25 s/woork/work 18:17:50 Jemma: what if we check in again in a month, if 1.2 isn't published by then? 18:18:02 Matt_King: yeah, can add a monthly agendum, and also bring it up in the editors call 18:18:24 TOPIC: ARIA APG Redesign Project Update 18:18:39 Jemma: good segue to what'll save us from this problem! *wink* 18:19:02 Jemma: any updates for us today Issac? 18:19:09 isaacdurazo: yes! 18:19:35 isaacdurazo: Alex is putting together the new site and template, though it's not ready to share yet it's close. 18:20:16 isaacdurazo: by the end of this week I think we'll have a link to share 18:20:26 isaacdurazo: happy to discuss that next tuesday 18:20:55 https://github.com/w3c/apg-redesign 18:21:11 isaacdurazo: i'm also planning the first usability study for this, for which i'd also like to plan a feedback gathering/group/meetup with stakeholders (us, here) and external folx, like devs or designers 18:21:34 isaacdurazo: thinking the a11y slack community might be a good place to pull participants from, especially external folx 18:22:01 isaacdurazo: goal is to start collecting feedback from us, here, week of August 16th 18:22:15 isaacdurazo: usability study the following week, August 23rd 18:22:27 isaacdurazo: updates will be published in the redesign repo 18:22:38 q+ 18:22:59 isaacdurazo: nothing _big_ to share, but exciting news nonetheless. and something to actually share next week! 18:23:37 Matt_King: i want to make sure everyone understands 1) this is intended to be a starting point to be iterated on - this isn't final. 18:24:58 Matt_King: 2) we made a decision to not make it dynamic. meaning - when we push content to the editors branch, it will NOT update the site. the site will be a snapshot - we're not investing in making it live updated at this time. 18:25:40 I have two questions - 1) timeframe after UX design, 2) content inventory 18:25:45 ack jem 18:26:28 Jemma: i think Matt_King answered most of my first question. but after the UX design, what's the timeline for everything else? 18:26:52 siri has joined #aria-apg 18:26:58 Jemma: 2) we have lots of good indicies, etc., so how are we going to update that information that's not a core part of the structure? like inventories? 18:27:06 Matt_King: that'll be part of the content migration 18:27:17 RRSAgent, make minutes 18:27:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/03-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy_ 18:27:42 Matt_King: i don't think we have the full answers to that yet, lots of discovery to do still 18:28:13 Matt_King: after we're a little further along in the information architecture, we'll have a bit better idea of the size of content needing migration 18:29:15 isaacdurazo: i think a good point is that, after the feedback from us and the studies, is to determine the scope of what's getting migrated and when 18:29:35 Matt_King: which leads to my first question - do we want to make any changes prior to your study? 18:30:34 Matt_King: e.g., we have a few pages for each item (pattern, example, etc.). do we want to break those out further? 18:30:45 mck: thinking about "fundamental practice" 18:31:12 s/about/about adding third section, 18:31:15 Matt_King: i love the idea for the patterns page to use cards. i was wondering if we'd have a fundamental practices page that'd have these too, that could bring various cards together to introduce people to further topics 18:31:52 Matt_King: also wondering if we could have some iconography that'd draw people's attention to each sort of fundamental to help visually categorize things 18:32:31 mck: "sea of practices" 18:32:48 isaacdurazo: i like those ideas. i was working on the patterns page just this week - it's a huge difference to look with the cards instead of a wall of text. i think that it'd be good to have that fundamental card set too 18:32:58 isaacdurazo: let me talk with Alex and see what we can do 18:33:13 Matt_King: if it's a good idea and it delays things, that's fine! 18:33:29 isaacdurazo: once i saw the difference in text vs. "gallery" view, it was huge and i think it'll be so worth it 18:33:58 Matt_King: i wonder if others would agree that this is a good way to go about things, and go along with your ideas jongund 18:34:11 jongund: i'm looking forward to seeing the prototype, it's a little hard to visualize 18:34:33 Jemma: any thoughts from CurtBellew, siri, or Bryan? 18:34:38 present+ BryanGaraventa 18:35:45 siri: one thing _I'd_ like is to be able to quickly check if something is global or not, or what a particular attribute can be used on. is it a state, property? 18:36:05 siri: for instance, can this "aria-current" thing be used on a list? Button? Anywhere? etc. 18:36:40 Matt_King: yes, that's a great idea! we haven't gotten to that section yet, but having a common presentation will be really helpful for APG to provide 18:37:15 Matt_King: for anyone who hasn't commented, and if you'd like to, issue 1 in the redesign repo is a good place to look at the current architecture description and leave your thoughts 18:37:21 https://github.com/w3c/apg-redesign/issues/1 18:38:06 Bryan: I haven't had much time to look at it yet, but is there something specific I Could check out? 18:38:31 Matt_King: it's a more general description of the architecture. if you'd rather wait for a functioning prototype, that's fine 18:39:35 CurtBellew: I have nothing specific. What Siri said makes lots of sense to me and I'd like that too 18:39:40 TOPIC: PR Review 18:40:06 Jemma: we'll review as many of these together before the end of the meeting 18:40:10 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/switch-checkbox/examples/switch/switch-checkbox.html 18:40:11 PR 1895 18:40:41 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1895 18:41:09 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/switch-button/examples/switch/switch-button.html 18:41:22 https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/switch/examples/switch/switch.html 18:41:39 Matt_King: question for the group/jon on the switch PRs - when we did different forms of the nav menus (menubar, disclosure, tree, etc.), we made the content the same to facilitate comparison. should we do that with the switches too? 18:42:18 Matt_King: maybe an argument against would be showing a variety of places switches are appropriate, but it seems like it should be a purposeful decision one way or another 18:42:33 s/against/against that 18:43:07 jongund: i don't have a strong opinion about it 18:43:29 Jemma: it makes sense to me to have the same _content_ with different coding 18:44:22 siri: having more than oone option helps them pick something, but if it's confusing, one thing might be easier 18:44:32 s/oone /one 18:46:48 Matt_King: maybe shortening the titles to "switch based on HTML [element]" would help 18:48:54 MarkMcCarthy_: as a teacher, having different _content_ helps differentiate the examples, along with a more concise title 18:49:23 Matt_King: oh that does make lots of sense! 18:49:58 Jemma: having different content could help with showcasing different usecases 18:50:34 Matt_King: these are good points! thinking of the nav examples, they look much different in their implementation when side by side. 18:51:27 Jemma: thinking of the redesign again, there's value in exposing different content 18:51:50 Matt_King: i like Mark's points. if others are neutral as far as editorial content goes, i'll go his suggestion 18:53:35 Jemma: focusing on the visual reviews of these switches, then... 18:53:50 Matt_King: are we happy with focus styling with mouse/keyboard? 18:53:54 MarkMcCarthy_: yep 18:54:39 Matt_King: keyboard is working with enter and space, this is a checkbox so we're getting that for free, jongund((?) 18:54:44 jongund: we're scripting the enter key 18:54:49 Matt_King: because the pattern says to? 18:55:16 Matt_King: oh this is a new pattern! 18:57:16 there are event key handler for enter both examples, checkbox and div example 18:58:05 Jemma: so are we deciding that we don't need to program the enter key interaction? 18:58:19 Bryan: You'll actually get some of that by default anyway, so maybe it's better for us to keep it 19:00:18 Matt_King: Windows toggle switches (like airplane mode) don't respond to enter key 19:01:47 MarkMcCarthy_: correct, though they look like slide switches 19:02:08 zakim, who is here 19:02:08 MarkMcCarthy_, you need to end that query with '?' 19:02:11 zakim, who is here? 19:02:11 Present: Matt_King, Jemma, MarkMcCarthy, Rich_Noah, jamesn, jongund, present, siri, bryangaraventa, CurtBellew, jesdaigle_, isaacdurazo 19:02:11 Group is checking enter key implement in different OS, window and mac 19:02:14 On IRC I see siri, MarkMcCarthy_, CurtBellew, Rich_Noah, jesdaigle_, jongund, isaacdurazo, RRSAgent, Matt_King, Jemma, github-bot, MichaelC, Zakim, trackbot, s3ththompson, ZoeBijl, 19:02:14 ... jamesn 19:02:35 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:02:35 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/03-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy_ 19:02:56 Matt_King_ has joined #aria-apg 19:03:29 mck: If window does not support enter key then we will only support space key for APG example consistency 19:03:35 Matt_King: If Windows and Mac don't support the Enter key, then we won't either. Which would be weird if it was a button I suppose, but better to keep things consistent. 19:04:13 Matt_King: but we wouldn't want to block Enter on a switch made from a button, though? 19:04:26 Group: No 19:05:08 Matt_King: And it's not so much that we have to mimic the OSs, but we should have some rationale as a TF 19:06:27 Matt_King: either way, no objections to the visual design! that's good. I'd like some input on what MacOS does for switches re: the Enter key 19:06:59 jongund: the best way might be to say that Enter is optional 19:07:05 Matt_King: Oh! That's a really good idea 19:07:10 jongund: and we do that in other places 19:07:15 Matt_King: Very true! 19:07:27 jongund: should we update things to do that then? 19:08:33 Matt_King: I'm leaning that way, because we can remove keyboard handling too 19:08:41 jongund: I can make those changes then, no problem 19:08:52 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:08:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/03-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy_ 19:09:19 regrets+ Sarah_Higley 19:09:20 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:09:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/03-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy_