IRC log of aria-apg on 2021-08-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:48:36 [RRSAgent]
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17:48:36 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/08/03-aria-apg-irc
17:48:49 [Matt_King]
rrsagent, make log public
17:48:58 [Matt_King]
present+
17:49:06 [Matt_King]
zakim, clear agenda
17:49:06 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
17:49:21 [Matt_King]
MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
17:49:36 [Matt_King]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:49:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/03-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
17:58:18 [Jemma]
present+
17:59:14 [MarkMcCarthy]
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17:59:25 [MarkMcCarthy]
present+
18:00:29 [isaacdurazo]
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18:01:12 [jongund]
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18:02:15 [Jemma]
Meeting agenda: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/August-3,-2021-Agenda
18:02:41 [jesdaigle_]
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18:02:52 [jesdaigle_]
+present
18:02:57 [Matt_King]
CHAIR: Jemma
18:02:59 [Jemma]
zakim, choose a victim
18:02:59 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose jamesn
18:03:25 [Rich_Noah]
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18:03:25 [jesdaigle_]
present+
18:03:39 [Rich_Noah]
present+
18:03:41 [isaacdurazo]
present+
18:03:52 [jongund]
present+ jongund
18:04:33 [Jemma]
zakim, choose a victim
18:04:34 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose present
18:04:55 [MarkMcCarthy]
scribe: MarkMcCarthy
18:05:20 [MarkMcCarthy]
agenda?
18:06:01 [MarkMcCarthy]
TOPIC: ARIA APG Working Draft Publication Schedule
18:06:35 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: the plan is to publish APG 1.2 when ARIA 1.2 is a Proposed Recommendation
18:06:50 [CurtBellew]
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18:07:01 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: ARIA 1.2 has unforuntately been delayed, still waiting on some implementations
18:07:17 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: jamesn took a look recently, and found that we're almost there
18:07:34 [CurtBellew]
present+
18:07:55 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: ARIA spec might be moving forward soon which means we can move forward, even if it's a little ahead of the PR
18:08:21 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: does that answer your questions jongund?
18:08:40 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongund: what's there now?
18:09:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: we have the TR. but i've been pointing people to the editor's draft, the only thing that's missing are the changes in the first section and the changelog
18:09:34 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongund: seems strange to me that people come to W3C and this is what they get
18:09:49 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: the redesign should help with this, so it'll be a website instead of a note
18:10:06 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: APG 1.2 will be the last version that's TR
18:11:23 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: as 1.3 or 1.4 stuff gets added in, as long as it's clear it's newer content it'll be good. longer term goal is to makee sure the ARiA AT support tables are in there
18:12:02 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: as soon as 1.2 is out there, we'll be working on the redesign in parallel, and once THAT'S launched, then we won't have to worry about this again
18:12:25 [MarkMcCarthy]
jongund: the wai-aria-practices-1.2 URL just won't get updated at that point, then?
18:12:37 [MarkMcCarthy]
Matt_King: once the redesign is done, all those URLs will be "deprecated" and re-linked
18:12:46 [MarkMcCarthy]
s/re-linked/redirected
18:13:02 [Jemma]
q+ to consider stop-gap measure
18:13:46 [MarkMcCarthy]
ack jamesn
18:13:46 [Zakim]
jamesn, you wanted to say that the on color in WHCM should he "Highlight" and the off should be the default color
18:14:54 [MarkMcCarthy_]
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18:15:13 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: and we'll make it clear that we let people know that the current stuff is out of date, once it is
18:15:16 [MarkMcCarthy_]
ack jemma
18:15:16 [Zakim]
Jemma, you wanted to consider stop-gap measure
18:15:47 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Jemma: jamesn is doing a lot of heavy lifting on the ARIA stuff to get it up to date. is there anything we can do to be "done" in the meantime?
18:15:58 [MarkMcCarthy_]
scribe: MarkMcCarthy_
18:16:18 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: that's a good question for the ARIA WG or the editors
18:17:07 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: we're basically making our own plan so we have an evergreen site that we can more effectively edit and serve
18:17:20 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: especially since our work is different from spec woork
18:17:25 [MarkMcCarthy_]
s/woork/work
18:17:50 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Jemma: what if we check in again in a month, if 1.2 isn't published by then?
18:18:02 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: yeah, can add a monthly agendum, and also bring it up in the editors call
18:18:24 [MarkMcCarthy_]
TOPIC: ARIA APG Redesign Project Update
18:18:39 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Jemma: good segue to what'll save us from this problem! *wink*
18:19:02 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Jemma: any updates for us today Issac?
18:19:09 [MarkMcCarthy_]
isaacdurazo: yes!
18:19:35 [MarkMcCarthy_]
isaacdurazo: Alex is putting together the new site and template, though it's not ready to share yet it's close.
18:20:16 [MarkMcCarthy_]
isaacdurazo: by the end of this week I think we'll have a link to share
18:20:26 [MarkMcCarthy_]
isaacdurazo: happy to discuss that next tuesday
18:20:55 [Jemma]
https://github.com/w3c/apg-redesign
18:21:11 [MarkMcCarthy_]
isaacdurazo: i'm also planning the first usability study for this, for which i'd also like to plan a feedback gathering/group/meetup with stakeholders (us, here) and external folx, like devs or designers
18:21:34 [MarkMcCarthy_]
isaacdurazo: thinking the a11y slack community might be a good place to pull participants from, especially external folx
18:22:01 [MarkMcCarthy_]
isaacdurazo: goal is to start collecting feedback from us, here, week of August 16th
18:22:15 [MarkMcCarthy_]
isaacdurazo: usability study the following week, August 23rd
18:22:27 [MarkMcCarthy_]
isaacdurazo: updates will be published in the redesign repo
18:22:38 [Jemma]
q+
18:22:59 [MarkMcCarthy_]
isaacdurazo: nothing _big_ to share, but exciting news nonetheless. and something to actually share next week!
18:23:37 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: i want to make sure everyone understands 1) this is intended to be a starting point to be iterated on - this isn't final.
18:24:58 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: 2) we made a decision to not make it dynamic. meaning - when we push content to the editors branch, it will NOT update the site. the site will be a snapshot - we're not investing in making it live updated at this time.
18:25:40 [Jemma]
I have two questions - 1) timeframe after UX design, 2) content inventory
18:25:45 [MarkMcCarthy_]
ack jem
18:26:28 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Jemma: i think Matt_King answered most of my first question. but after the UX design, what's the timeline for everything else?
18:26:52 [siri]
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18:26:58 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Jemma: 2) we have lots of good indicies, etc., so how are we going to update that information that's not a core part of the structure? like inventories?
18:27:06 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: that'll be part of the content migration
18:27:17 [MarkMcCarthy_]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:27:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/03-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy_
18:27:42 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: i don't think we have the full answers to that yet, lots of discovery to do still
18:28:13 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: after we're a little further along in the information architecture, we'll have a bit better idea of the size of content needing migration
18:29:15 [MarkMcCarthy_]
isaacdurazo: i think a good point is that, after the feedback from us and the studies, is to determine the scope of what's getting migrated and when
18:29:35 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: which leads to my first question - do we want to make any changes prior to your study?
18:30:34 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: e.g., we have a few pages for each item (pattern, example, etc.). do we want to break those out further?
18:30:45 [Jemma]
mck: thinking about "fundamental practice"
18:31:12 [Jemma]
s/about/about adding third section,
18:31:15 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: i love the idea for the patterns page to use cards. i was wondering if we'd have a fundamental practices page that'd have these too, that could bring various cards together to introduce people to further topics
18:31:52 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: also wondering if we could have some iconography that'd draw people's attention to each sort of fundamental to help visually categorize things
18:32:31 [Jemma]
mck: "sea of practices"
18:32:48 [MarkMcCarthy_]
isaacdurazo: i like those ideas. i was working on the patterns page just this week - it's a huge difference to look with the cards instead of a wall of text. i think that it'd be good to have that fundamental card set too
18:32:58 [MarkMcCarthy_]
isaacdurazo: let me talk with Alex and see what we can do
18:33:13 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: if it's a good idea and it delays things, that's fine!
18:33:29 [MarkMcCarthy_]
isaacdurazo: once i saw the difference in text vs. "gallery" view, it was huge and i think it'll be so worth it
18:33:58 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: i wonder if others would agree that this is a good way to go about things, and go along with your ideas jongund
18:34:11 [MarkMcCarthy_]
jongund: i'm looking forward to seeing the prototype, it's a little hard to visualize
18:34:33 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Jemma: any thoughts from CurtBellew, siri, or Bryan?
18:34:38 [MarkMcCarthy_]
present+ BryanGaraventa
18:35:45 [MarkMcCarthy_]
siri: one thing _I'd_ like is to be able to quickly check if something is global or not, or what a particular attribute can be used on. is it a state, property?
18:36:05 [MarkMcCarthy_]
siri: for instance, can this "aria-current" thing be used on a list? Button? Anywhere? etc.
18:36:40 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: yes, that's a great idea! we haven't gotten to that section yet, but having a common presentation will be really helpful for APG to provide
18:37:15 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: for anyone who hasn't commented, and if you'd like to, issue 1 in the redesign repo is a good place to look at the current architecture description and leave your thoughts
18:37:21 [Jemma]
https://github.com/w3c/apg-redesign/issues/1
18:38:06 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Bryan: I haven't had much time to look at it yet, but is there something specific I Could check out?
18:38:31 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: it's a more general description of the architecture. if you'd rather wait for a functioning prototype, that's fine
18:39:35 [MarkMcCarthy_]
CurtBellew: I have nothing specific. What Siri said makes lots of sense to me and I'd like that too
18:39:40 [MarkMcCarthy_]
TOPIC: PR Review
18:40:06 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Jemma: we'll review as many of these together before the end of the meeting
18:40:10 [Jemma]
https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/switch-checkbox/examples/switch/switch-checkbox.html
18:40:11 [MarkMcCarthy_]
PR 1895
18:40:41 [Jemma]
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1895
18:41:09 [Jemma]
https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/switch-button/examples/switch/switch-button.html
18:41:22 [Jemma]
https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/switch/examples/switch/switch.html
18:41:39 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: question for the group/jon on the switch PRs - when we did different forms of the nav menus (menubar, disclosure, tree, etc.), we made the content the same to facilitate comparison. should we do that with the switches too?
18:42:18 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: maybe an argument against would be showing a variety of places switches are appropriate, but it seems like it should be a purposeful decision one way or another
18:42:33 [MarkMcCarthy_]
s/against/against that
18:43:07 [MarkMcCarthy_]
jongund: i don't have a strong opinion about it
18:43:29 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Jemma: it makes sense to me to have the same _content_ with different coding
18:44:22 [MarkMcCarthy_]
siri: having more than oone option helps them pick something, but if it's confusing, one thing might be easier
18:44:32 [MarkMcCarthy_]
s/oone /one
18:46:48 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: maybe shortening the titles to "switch based on HTML [element]" would help
18:48:54 [MarkMcCarthy_]
MarkMcCarthy_: as a teacher, having different _content_ helps differentiate the examples, along with a more concise title
18:49:23 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: oh that does make lots of sense!
18:49:58 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Jemma: having different content could help with showcasing different usecases
18:50:34 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: these are good points! thinking of the nav examples, they look much different in their implementation when side by side.
18:51:27 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Jemma: thinking of the redesign again, there's value in exposing different content
18:51:50 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: i like Mark's points. if others are neutral as far as editorial content goes, i'll go his suggestion
18:53:35 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Jemma: focusing on the visual reviews of these switches, then...
18:53:50 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: are we happy with focus styling with mouse/keyboard?
18:53:54 [MarkMcCarthy_]
MarkMcCarthy_: yep
18:54:39 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: keyboard is working with enter and space, this is a checkbox so we're getting that for free, jongund((?)
18:54:44 [MarkMcCarthy_]
jongund: we're scripting the enter key
18:54:49 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: because the pattern says to?
18:55:16 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: oh this is a new pattern!
18:57:16 [Jemma]
there are event key handler for enter both examples, checkbox and div example
18:58:05 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Jemma: so are we deciding that we don't need to program the enter key interaction?
18:58:19 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Bryan: You'll actually get some of that by default anyway, so maybe it's better for us to keep it
19:00:18 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: Windows toggle switches (like airplane mode) don't respond to enter key
19:01:47 [MarkMcCarthy_]
MarkMcCarthy_: correct, though they look like slide switches
19:02:08 [MarkMcCarthy_]
zakim, who is here
19:02:08 [Zakim]
MarkMcCarthy_, you need to end that query with '?'
19:02:11 [MarkMcCarthy_]
zakim, who is here?
19:02:11 [Zakim]
Present: Matt_King, Jemma, MarkMcCarthy, Rich_Noah, jamesn, jongund, present, siri, bryangaraventa, CurtBellew, jesdaigle_, isaacdurazo
19:02:11 [Jemma]
Group is checking enter key implement in different OS, window and mac
19:02:14 [Zakim]
On IRC I see siri, MarkMcCarthy_, CurtBellew, Rich_Noah, jesdaigle_, jongund, isaacdurazo, RRSAgent, Matt_King, Jemma, github-bot, MichaelC, Zakim, trackbot, s3ththompson, ZoeBijl,
19:02:14 [Zakim]
... jamesn
19:02:35 [MarkMcCarthy_]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:02:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/03-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy_
19:02:56 [Matt_King_]
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19:03:29 [Jemma]
mck: If window does not support enter key then we will only support space key for APG example consistency
19:03:35 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: If Windows and Mac don't support the Enter key, then we won't either. Which would be weird if it was a button I suppose, but better to keep things consistent.
19:04:13 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: but we wouldn't want to block Enter on a switch made from a button, though?
19:04:26 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Group: No
19:05:08 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: And it's not so much that we have to mimic the OSs, but we should have some rationale as a TF
19:06:27 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: either way, no objections to the visual design! that's good. I'd like some input on what MacOS does for switches re: the Enter key
19:06:59 [MarkMcCarthy_]
jongund: the best way might be to say that Enter is optional
19:07:05 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: Oh! That's a really good idea
19:07:10 [MarkMcCarthy_]
jongund: and we do that in other places
19:07:15 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: Very true!
19:07:27 [MarkMcCarthy_]
jongund: should we update things to do that then?
19:08:33 [MarkMcCarthy_]
Matt_King: I'm leaning that way, because we can remove keyboard handling too
19:08:41 [MarkMcCarthy_]
jongund: I can make those changes then, no problem
19:08:52 [MarkMcCarthy_]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:08:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/03-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy_
19:09:19 [MarkMcCarthy_]
regrets+ Sarah_Higley
19:09:20 [MarkMcCarthy_]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:09:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/08/03-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy_