IRC log of silver-conf on 2021-07-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:41:15 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #silver-conf
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/07/15-silver-conf-irc
15:41:30 [sajkaj]
Meeting: Silver Conformance Options Subgroup
15:41:40 [sajkaj]
Date: 15 Jul 2021
15:41:45 [sajkaj]
Chair: sajkaj
15:41:54 [sajkaj]
rrsagent, make log public
15:41:58 [sajkaj]
agenda?
15:42:00 [sajkaj]
Agenda+ Agenda Review & Administrative Items
15:42:00 [sajkaj]
agenda+ User Generated https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/User_Generated_Content
15:42:03 [sajkaj]
agenda+ Other Business
15:42:06 [sajkaj]
agenda+ Be Done
15:42:21 [sajkaj]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:42:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/15-silver-conf-minutes.html sajkaj
15:51:41 [sajkaj]
zakim, who's here?
15:51:41 [Zakim]
Present: (no one)
15:51:43 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, sajkaj, MichaelC, trackbot, Rachael
15:51:49 [sajkaj]
present+
15:52:01 [sajkaj]
zakim, who's here?
15:52:01 [Zakim]
Present: sajkaj
15:52:03 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, sajkaj, MichaelC, trackbot, Rachael
16:00:06 [PeterKorn]
PeterKorn has joined #silver-conf
16:00:23 [PeterKorn]
present+
16:02:18 [bruce_bailey]
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16:03:52 [jeanne]
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16:04:12 [jeanne]
scribe: jeanne
16:04:16 [jeanne]
agenda?
16:04:25 [jeanne]
zakim, take up next
16:04:25 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items -- taken up [from sajkaj]
16:04:27 [Wilco_]
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16:04:27 [jeanne]
present+
16:04:29 [Wilco_]
present+
16:04:51 [sajkaj]
https://www.w3.org/2021/07/13-ag-minutes.html#resolution02
16:05:01 [jeanne]
JS: agenda review - one item
16:05:25 [jeanne]
JS: AGWG wants us to bring back a specific proposal on User Generated content
16:05:51 [ToddLibby]
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16:06:05 [jeanne]
... I am hopeful User Generated will make August draft
16:06:08 [jeanne]
zakim, take up next
16:06:08 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- User Generated https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/User_Generated_Content -- taken up [from sajkaj]
16:06:51 [ToddLibby]
present+
16:07:11 [jeanne]
PK: [reads the new proposal for User Generated Content]
16:09:37 [jeanne]
jeanne: a little concern that we have duplication of the definition in the Introduction second paragraph that could cause confusion
16:16:54 [Wilco_]
q+
16:17:07 [jeanne]
q+ to ask to reference the Alt Text ATAG method - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2020/methods/text-alternative-editable/
16:17:30 [sajkaj]
q?
16:17:50 [jeanne]
PK: There is repetion that needs to be refined
16:18:37 [jeanne]
... the issue from AGWG raised of employees as being end users. "The official YouTube channel of X" -
16:18:55 [jeanne]
JS: That is covered in the definition that it is excluded from User Generated
16:19:20 [jeanne]
WF: How is it going to fit into WCAG3?
16:19:51 [jeanne]
JS: It won't be just Text ALternatives, there will be bits that go in different places.
16:19:56 [jeanne]
... Glossary
16:20:24 [jeanne]
... Guideline by guideline. Makoto knows we want to add new Text Alternative text
16:20:29 [JF]
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16:20:35 [JF]
Present+
16:20:53 [jeanne]
... we need to introduce it in a few places
16:20:53 [PeterKorn]
q+
16:20:58 [jeanne]
ack wil
16:21:02 [jeanne]
ack jean
16:21:02 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to ask to reference the Alt Text ATAG method - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2020/methods/text-alternative-editable/
16:21:18 [sajkaj]
ack wil
16:21:20 [sajkaj]
ack jea
16:21:39 [Wilco_]
Jeanne: I would like us to work a little closer with the method we have in FPWD on alternative text and authoring.
16:21:43 [jeanne]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2020/methods/text-alternative-editable/
16:22:45 [Wilco_]
... In the description tag it's talking about an authoring tool. We could add something to the examples and tests, that would be helpful for this.
16:22:52 [sajkaj]
q?
16:23:19 [Wilco_]
... If we wanted to link to this, then get feedback from Makoto, we could open a pull request.
16:23:37 [Wilco_]
Janina: Do we need to refer to ATAG, or take language from it?
16:23:58 [Wilco_]
Jeanne: We're better off doing it ourselves. The intention has been to incorporate ATAG and UAAG into WCAG 3 as methods.
16:24:32 [PeterKorn]
q?
16:24:33 [Wilco_]
... So we end up with two sections. Something for in the conformance section, in the glossary, and then for in the method.
16:25:05 [jeanne]
PK: I'm wondering whether this is worth having it's own tab.
16:26:34 [jeanne]
jeanne: We should work with Makoto, but I'm not sure what time he meets.
16:26:49 [jeanne]
JS: I think this is a prototype of what we need
16:27:03 [sajkaj]
q?
16:27:07 [sajkaj]
ack pet
16:27:09 [sajkaj]
q+
16:27:56 [Wilco_]
Jeanne: I'd like to see new method design in for August.
16:28:11 [PeterKorn]
ack Pet
16:28:28 [jeanne]
jeanne: There is a new prototype of Method that Wilco has been working on.
16:28:30 [Wilco_]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JVmquc7mLJaxZhypPbBhR99fEFBmc0YDn1Wz2Jcl_oY/edit#heading=h.9xoxf5cqf0jv
16:28:47 [jeanne]
JS: What do we think our steps are?
16:29:16 [jeanne]
... we have been directed by Silver, but now we are reporting to AGWG
16:30:19 [Wilco_]
Jeanne: Within the next 2 weeks, we'd come back to AGWG with a new proposal. Based on their response we create the PR and then go for CfC
16:30:42 [Wilco_]
Janina: I agee
16:34:13 [sajkaj]
q?
16:34:16 [sajkaj]
ack sa
16:35:07 [jeanne]
jeanne: Change "Steps to Conform" to Conformance section: User Generated Content. Change Text Alternatives to "Updates to Author control of text alternatives" Method in Text Alternatives Guideline
16:35:43 [jeanne]
PK: I want to keep the Use Cases in the proposal even though they are not going in the WCAG3 doc. Perhaps in the Explainer?
16:36:14 [jeanne]
JS: What if your whole reason for existence is user generated content, like Craig's list?
16:36:45 [jeanne]
PK: the "perhaps" covers whether there should be href ids.
16:37:01 [sajkaj]
q?
16:37:26 [jeanne]
PK: In the clearly identifying site: say "everything below the navigation is user generated"
16:37:58 [jeanne]
... "In the product detail page, everything after the Product Reviews heading is user generated content"
16:38:26 [jeanne]
JS: Because of COGA needs, which should be very structured about how we handle the content
16:38:27 [PeterKorn]
q?
16:39:02 [jeanne]
PK: In our use case examples, we go further and say "this how one site does it, this is how another site does it, and both are valid"
16:39:52 [jeanne]
JS: I took our old sentence "content developed by employees, contractors of the publishers of the site" are not user generated
16:42:00 [jeanne]
PK: If I am an employee or contractor of PaymentFriend, and I have a section of Facebook for PaymentFriend, then we need to explicitly address whether or not I am an end user. Is Facebook the site at that point, or is PaymentFriend responsibility of Payment Friend?
16:42:03 [sajkaj]
q+
16:42:45 [jeanne]
... If I'm an employee of PaymentFriend and I post a movie review, is PaymentReview responsible for the movie review? There are many levels of gray.
16:43:33 [JF]
Huge +1 to Peter's concern
16:43:54 [jeanne]
... I am an empoloyee of AMazon, if I say something anywhere about accessibility, is that a statement of Amazon? Is Amazon responsible ofr the accessibility of my statement? This is very messy and could be very chilling of free speech.
16:44:49 [jeanne]
JS: If you comment on the Dead Sea Scrolls, and you log in with your PaymentFriend employee id -- which would probably be brought in.
16:45:53 [sajkaj]
q?
16:46:18 [JF]
Q+ to note that "liability" is a legal construct, not a technical concerns
16:46:35 [jeanne]
PK: When we bring in COGA and CLear Language requirements, we go beyond the accessibility that most people can accomplish. I worry how we are going to bring that into social media. It's an issue -- will Amazon be liable for the accessibility of statements that I make online? I worry about that.
16:47:19 [JF]
+1 to Janina
16:47:49 [jeanne]
JS: We specify in WCAG2 what is specific for web content. It isn't our job to do that. "I made a mistake" should be acceptable.
16:48:24 [PeterKorn]
q?
16:48:25 [jeanne]
PK: By the time we get to a jury, the cost is prohibitive. Jeanne's example of $80K for a school system with one error.
16:48:35 [jeanne]
ack saj
16:48:38 [sajkaj]
ack saj
16:48:55 [sajkaj]
ack jf
16:48:55 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to note that "liability" is a legal construct, not a technical concerns
16:49:03 [jeanne]
PK: I would rather say that "this proposal doesn't cover that scenario, which neeeds more discussion"
16:49:11 [sajkaj]
q?
16:49:36 [jeanne]
JF: Liability is a legal construct and W3C isn't in the business of deciding laws.
16:49:43 [sajkaj]
q?
16:49:48 [jeanne]
q+ to say unintended consequences
16:49:48 [PeterKorn]
q+
16:50:04 [jeanne]
JF: I don't know if that is a propboem we can solve at our end.
16:50:18 [JF]
Q+
16:50:26 [Wilco_]
Jeanne: We're not responsible for legal, we are responsible for unintended consequences.
16:50:35 [Wilco_]
... We do have to think about what the consequences could be.
16:51:00 [jeanne]
JS: I want to draw us back to Next Steps
16:51:13 [jeanne]
... Therefore, as a result of what we just discussed...
16:51:15 [sajkaj]
q?
16:51:22 [jeanne]
ack jeanne
16:51:22 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to say unintended consequences
16:51:24 [jeanne]
ack Pe
16:51:28 [sajkaj]
ack jea
16:52:45 [Jemma]
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16:53:01 [jeanne]
PK: If we get into User Generated and say that some employees of some company might contribute to, and others where the employer could be held responsible for the accessibility of the posts of employees needs very careful discussion./
16:53:23 [jeanne]
... [reads definition] I don't know what you are trying to do in that sentence.
16:53:37 [sajkaj]
ack jf
16:53:54 [jeanne]
JS: I'm thinking about the small business
16:54:02 [sajkaj]
q?
16:54:25 [jeanne]
JF: I think that emkployers being held responsible for posting of employees is an HR issue.
16:54:51 [jeanne]
JS: Let's get back to the definition specifics. WHat language needs to be added?
16:55:14 [jeanne]
PK: Let's write a note for that definition and ask for comments from the public.
16:55:18 [sajkaj]
q?
16:55:34 [jeanne]
JF: That's something we can do. That's actionable
16:56:21 [jeanne]
PK: We don't have anything in WCAG2 today that addresses authoring that is on another's platform.
16:56:33 [jeanne]
JS: Third party was never addressed or considered.
16:56:43 [jeanne]
agenda?
16:57:20 [jeanne]
JS: Pull the sentence on CMS -- author arranged services -- it isn't part of User Generated.
16:57:21 [sajkaj]
q?
16:59:06 [jeanne]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Project_Plan_for_Q3_Working_Draft
17:00:28 [jeanne]
Jeanne: I see User Generated on the schedule for 3 August
17:02:17 [jeanne]
PK: Peter wants to take an additional breakout -- after we do the work today, is that we then return to the author-arranged media. Let's take that up next
17:02:53 [jeanne]
... it could be separate pieces. People can say they like one or another.
17:03:20 [jeanne]
... Let's get a clean media-only proposal that could be surveyed separately.
17:03:24 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/15-silver-conf-minutes.html jeanne
17:05:41 [sajkaj]
zakim, bye
17:05:41 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been sajkaj, PeterKorn, bruce_bailey, jeanne, Wilco_, ToddLibby, JF
17:05:41 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #silver-conf
17:05:48 [sajkaj]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:05:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/15-silver-conf-minutes.html sajkaj
17:18:28 [ToddLibby]
ToddLibby has left #silver-conf