12:50:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub-fxl
12:50:44 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/07/06-epub-fxl-irc
12:50:46 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:50:47 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
12:51:01 <wendyreid> meeting: Fixed Layout Accessibility Telco July 6, 2021
12:51:07 <wendyreid> date: 2021-07-06
12:51:14 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
12:58:12 <Ken_Jones> Ken_Jones has joined #epub-fxl
12:59:26 <Rachel_Osolen> Rachel_Osolen has joined #epub-fxl
13:00:06 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #epub-fxl
13:00:46 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #epub-fxl
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13:01:06 <gpellegrino> present+
13:01:14 <MattChan> present+
13:01:20 <mgarrish> mgarrish has joined #epub-fxl
13:02:47 <MattChan> scribe+
13:02:59 <mgarrish> present+
13:03:00 <MattChan> wendyreid: so we'll do our usual round of updates
13:03:18 <MattChan> ... spent some time playing around with region-based alt-text in comics
13:03:31 <MattChan> ... using map element
13:03:54 <MattChan> ... i was able to segment page into 3 sections and add alt-text, but not a single screen reader would work with it
13:04:06 <MattChan> ... they just tell user that an image map exists, but nothing else
13:04:30 <MattChan> ... next step is finding HTML elements that have been implemented by screen readers
13:04:44 <gpellegrino> q+
13:04:50 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:04:52 <gpellegrino> https://a11ysupport.io/
13:05:28 <MattChan> gpellegrino: this is a link where you can check which AT is support by which browers, etc.
13:05:44 <CharlesL> regrets+
13:05:59 <MattChan> ... also, I've received sample files from ITA publisher. But they asked me to create sample files from their full publication
13:06:05 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #epub-fxl
13:06:11 <MattChan> ... are there tools for doing this? Or is it done manually?
13:06:26 <MattChan> wendyreid: i've done this in the past manually
13:07:08 <MattChan> gpellegrino: it seems like some retail platforms have tools for making samples from full books, but they might be internal only
13:07:33 <MattChan> wendyreid: Kobo's tool for doing this is not elegant, nor made to be public facing
13:07:38 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:07:45 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:08:52 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: when doing tests of what might be possible, even if it is not supported currently, we might still recommend it in the hopes that those recommendations will spur wider spread adoption
13:09:03 <MattChan> wendyreid: problem is that it doesn't even work in browsers currently
13:09:11 <MattChan> Ken_Jones sharing screen
13:10:16 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: this is a document i originally made in InDesign, and then added sample code to allow me to switch between InDesign CSS and reflow CSS
13:10:56 <MattChan> ... e.g. when the viewport exceeds a certain width
13:11:47 <MattChan> ... it can be opened in a RS like Colibrio, and it works there
13:12:15 <gpellegrino> q+
13:12:45 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:13:09 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #epub-fxl
13:13:11 <MattChan> gpellegrino: how does it swap from one to the other?
13:13:12 <Hadrien> q+
13:13:39 <MattChan> ... how did you manage to maintain reading order?
13:14:14 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: it's based on how InDesign dictates reading order based on the InDesign document
13:14:29 <wendyreid> ack  Hadrien
13:14:53 <MattChan> Hadrien: this is might actually be solving a different use-case than we are trying to address
13:15:09 <MattChan> ... e.g. responsible layout rather than a11y-FXL layout
13:15:16 <MattChan> s/responsible/responsive
13:16:17 <MattChan> ... what you've shown would work under two circumstances: 1) FXL and 2) reflowable, but scrolled rather than paginated, where the RS is not likely to inject its own CSS to make reflow work
13:16:42 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:16:49 <wendyreid> ack Ken
13:16:51 <MattChan> ... but this doesn't make it easier for the end user to switch between something that is accessible, and something that is not
13:17:11 <mgarrish> q+
13:17:56 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:18:01 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: I did it as a media-query just as a proof of concept, but in the rest of our document the choice would be made by the reader or RS at will (and not by rotating the device, for example)
13:18:27 <MattChan> mgarrish: this is still relevant to the WCAG requirement that user be able to zoom without loss of functionality
13:18:44 <MattChan> ... its similar to the approach that Adobe is taking for PDFs
13:18:49 <Hadrien> q+
13:19:14 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:19:22 <MattChan> ... there's going to be implementation issues (e.g. with tables that break across pages), but I think its viable for addressing this one specific a11y issue
13:20:14 <MattChan> Hadrien: the approach that Adobe has taken is similar to browser reader modes, e.g. taking the content, stripping the style, and then using a preset stylesheet
13:20:53 <MattChan> ... e.g. in iOS 15 there is the ability to detect and extract text from a FXL, and output could be used to generate reflow book
13:21:14 <MattChan> ... but the difference from authored content is that you lose all the styling
13:21:39 <MattChan> wendyreid: it seems like OCF, but suped up
13:21:53 <MattChan> ... thanks Ken_Jones that was a cool demo
13:22:00 <Rachel_Osolen> q+
13:22:04 <wendyreid> ack Rachel_Osolen
13:23:07 <gpellegrino> q+
13:23:10 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:23:14 <MattChan> Rachel_Osolen: charles and I continued drafting the alt-text section
13:24:05 <Hadrien> q+
13:24:32 <Ken_Jones> Link to sample file I showed and bit more info added to the Visual to Textual Explainer doc. https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Visual-to-Textual-Explainer--BOAMEppSEPpwsHAd4kD8MA9HAg-K3nAwKn2vlVqRpFyZ9KHN
13:24:43 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:24:59 <MattChan> gpellegrino: the idea of stripping out styling and displaying in accessible way was my first idea as well, but then I realized that we wanted to recommend something that authors can do to make more accessible content, rather than something that RS does
13:25:35 <MattChan> Hadrien: with reflowable content, an affordance that RS has is user styles (change font, size, etc.)
13:26:08 <MattChan> ... with FXL content, affordance that RS has is different - e.g. spread or no spread, paginated or not, pinch to zoom
13:28:18 <wendyreid> scribe+
13:28:29 <wendyreid> Hadrien: Have we looked at RS affordances?
13:30:08 <wendyreid> wendyreid: We haven't, but we should look at that as a section in the best practices
13:30:22 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:30:27 <wendyreid> Hadrien: If we look at changing the content, we'd likely need to change reading system affordances
13:30:31 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:30:41 <wendyreid> Ken_Jones: We've got some best practice guidelines
13:30:58 <wendyreid> ... this extra thing is additional to that, not part of the document yet
13:31:09 <wendyreid> ... could you give an example of a reading system affordance?
13:31:13 <wendyreid> ... what more could we do?
13:31:26 <wendyreid> Hadrien: One thing that was mentioned, was looking at fallbacks
13:31:34 <wendyreid> ... a reflowable fallback for every FXL resource
13:31:41 <wendyreid> ... when it comes to authoring that's an example
13:32:20 <wendyreid> ... for RS affordances, we could have more features available, is pinch-to-zoom sufficient or should there be other methods available always
13:32:51 <mgarrish> q+
13:32:57 <wendyreid> ... pointing out how tools "break" assistive tech is an example too
13:33:02 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:33:20 <wendyreid> mgarrish: I want to agree, RSs tend to favour authoring over everything
13:33:36 <wendyreid> ... there are other issues like contrast where the user could have greater control and don't
13:33:46 <wendyreid> ... it would be a benefit for users to allow for greater control
13:34:16 <wendyreid> wendyreid: Agreed
13:34:36 <wendyreid> mgarrish: It's not going to pass WCAG if the user agent doesn't allow for the affordances
13:34:47 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:34:54 <wendyreid> wendyreid: I guess we're adding another section to the doc
13:34:56 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:35:20 <wendyreid> Ken_Jones: My usual approach to try to play along with the tools than change them
13:35:37 <wendyreid> ... we could say "here's a way to make EPUBs without indesign"
13:35:49 <wendyreid> ... but people are fixed in their ways
13:36:39 <MattChan> wendyreid: right, we not going to change the tools that publishers use day to day
13:37:09 <MattChan> ... but discussing topics like how InDesign breaks reading order will enable publishers to work around that as much as possible
13:37:26 <MattChan> ... I'll add section to the doc about RS affordances
13:37:57 <Hadrien> present+
13:38:12 <MattChan> ... please volunteer if you feel you can fill out this section
13:38:23 <Rachel_Osolen> q+
13:38:33 <wendyreid> ack Rachel_Osolen
13:38:38 <Hadrien> q+
13:39:15 <mgarrish> q+
13:39:32 <MattChan> Rachel_Osolen: I had a colleague ask how we're going to deal with RSes reading FXL books like each word is a paragraph
13:41:07 <MattChan> ... it was suggested that we might have a specific warning in the metadata to alert users to this a11y issue
13:41:10 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:41:41 <MattChan> Hadrien: i'm interested in tackling the issue of fallbacks
13:42:15 <MattChan> ... essentially providing the functionality of multiple-renditions, but without multiple OPFs
13:42:16 <wendyreid> ack mg
13:43:34 <MattChan> mgarrish: how do these techniques layer into WCAG? Like "these techniques will get you to A, and then going to AA we have these additional issues". Or are we aiming to get people directly to AA. Will there be some sort of mapping from techniques to WCAG?
13:44:27 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:44:32 <MattChan> ... I feel like publishers ultimately want to know this
13:44:36 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:44:58 <gpellegrino> q+
13:45:32 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:45:35 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: I think getting to A is doable with what we're currently drafting, but getting to AA seems unlikely without some of these more experimental techniques, or fallbacks
13:46:29 <MattChan> gpellegrino: for EAA, Level A is not enough. You need Level A plus the able to change font size, colour, etc. So maybe we can have both how to reach Level A, and EAA minimum standard
13:47:23 <MattChan> mgarrish: maybe as simple as, for each technique, say what level each technique is relevant to. Without saying doing "this" will get you to "Level A", etc.
13:48:14 <MattChan> wendyreid: I can look into this
13:48:24 <MattChan> ... okay, thank you everyone. See you all in 2 weeks!
13:48:33 <wendyreid> present+
13:48:40 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
13:48:40 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been gpellegrino, MattChan, mgarrish, Hadrien, wendyreid
13:48:42 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:48:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/07/06-epub-fxl-minutes.html Zakim
13:48:44 <Ken_Jones> present+
13:48:46 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
13:48:50 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub-fxl
13:48:50 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
13:49:01 <wendyreid> rrsagent, goodbye
13:49:01 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'goodbye', wendyreid.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:49:14 <wendyreid> rrsagent, bye
13:49:14 <RRSAgent> I see no action items