IRC log of rdf-star on 2021-07-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:52:48 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
14:52:48 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/07/02-rdf-star-irc
14:52:51 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:52:52 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin
14:52:58 [pchampin]
meeting: RDF-star
14:53:01 [pchampin]
chair: pchampin
14:53:15 [pchampin]
agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star/2021Jul/0000.html
14:53:15 [agendabot]
clear agenda
14:53:15 [agendabot]
agenda+ Announcements and newcomers
14:53:15 [agendabot]
agenda+ Open actions
14:53:15 [agendabot]
agenda+ Summer schedule
14:53:15 [agendabot]
agenda+ CG report
14:53:17 [agendabot]
agenda+ WG draft charter
14:53:20 [agendabot]
agenda+ Open-ended discussions
14:54:59 [pchampin]
date: 2 July 2021
14:55:10 [pchampin]
Previous meeting: https://w3c.github.io/rdf-star/Minutes/2021-06-18.html
14:55:10 [pchampin]
Next meeting: https://w3c.github.io/rdf-star/Minutes/2021-07-16.html
14:55:43 [pchampin]
q?
14:57:25 [AndyS]
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14:59:06 [gkellogg]
gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
15:00:04 [james]
james has joined #rdf-star
15:00:40 [TallTed]
TallTed has joined #rdf-star
15:00:53 [thomas]
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15:00:56 [ora]
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15:01:01 [ora]
present+
15:01:13 [AndyS]
present+
15:02:52 [james]
present+
15:03:12 [gkellogg]
present+
15:03:19 [TallTed]
present+
15:03:48 [thomas]
present+
15:03:59 [pchampin]
present+
15:04:24 [gkellogg]
present+ Jay Gray
15:04:51 [AndyS]
scribe: AndyS
15:05:01 [pchampin]
zakim, next agendum
15:05:01 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Announcements and newcomers -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:06:11 [AndyS]
Jay: using RDF and related tech to create electronic labels (food drugs, cosmetics, household chemicals)
15:06:38 [AndyS]
... can see along the supply chain as it has labels-in-labels.
15:07:44 [AndyS]
... looking the RDF-star work to see if it will relate to what we plan to deploy soon
15:07:47 [pchampin]
q?
15:07:52 [james]
q+
15:07:57 [pchampin]
ack james
15:08:15 [AndyS]
james: link?
15:08:52 [AndyS]
james: labels-in-labels : is it by inclusion or by reference.
15:10:13 [AndyS]
Jay: large graphs being updated (Shex and SHACL on ingestion). Generates references (may be in (solid) pods).
15:10:17 [pchampin]
q?
15:10:54 [AndyS]
pchampin: Announcement -- 3rd public draft published
15:11:14 [pchampin]
q?
15:11:15 [AndyS]
... all contributors now properly registered in the CG.
15:11:26 [pchampin]
q?
15:11:37 [pchampin]
zakim, close this item
15:11:37 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
15:11:38 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:11:38 [Zakim]
2. Open actions [from agendabot]
15:11:47 [rivettp]
rivettp has joined #rdf-star
15:12:02 [pchampin]
q?
15:12:08 [pchampin]
zakim, close this item
15:12:08 [Zakim]
I do not know what agendum had been taken up, pchampin
15:12:11 [AndyS]
pchampin: none :-)
15:12:20 [pchampin]
zakim, close item 2
15:12:20 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Open actions, closed
15:12:21 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:12:21 [Zakim]
3. Summer schedule [from agendabot]
15:12:24 [AndyS]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Aaction
15:13:01 [rivettp]
present+
15:13:44 [AndyS]
pchampin: Can make next call in 2 weeks time. Then time away, back in August.
15:14:03 [pchampin]
q?
15:14:10 [AndyS]
... common practice: gap and reconvene end Aug/early Sept
15:15:06 [james]
+1
15:15:07 [AndyS]
pchampin: work areas -- charter and vocab section
15:15:08 [thomas]
+1
15:15:12 [ora]
+1
15:15:15 [gkellogg]
+1
15:15:16 [AndyS]
Who is here 16/July?
15:15:18 [rivettp]
+1
15:15:23 [TallTed]
+1
15:15:24 [AndyS]
+1
15:15:26 [pchampin]
+1
15:15:33 [pchampin]
<jay> +1
15:15:35 [AndyS]
Jay: +1
15:17:01 [pchampin]
PROPOSAL: cancel all calls after July 16, and reconvene on Sep 3rd
15:17:12 [AndyS]
+1
15:17:14 [james]
0
15:17:20 [pchampin]
+1
15:17:23 [gkellogg]
+1
15:17:34 [rivettp]
+1
15:17:40 [thomas]
0
15:17:52 [TallTed]
+
15:17:56 [TallTed]
+0
15:18:12 [pchampin]
APPROVED: cancel all calls after July 16, and reconvene on Sep 3rd
15:18:20 [pchampin]
q?
15:18:39 [pchampin]
zakim, close item 3
15:18:39 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Summer schedule, closed
15:18:40 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:18:40 [Zakim]
4. CG report [from agendabot]
15:19:33 [AndyS]
pchampin: Vocabulary
15:19:42 [pchampin]
scribe+
15:20:08 [pchampin]
AndyS: suggesting we describe "embedded triples" as "quoted triples"
15:20:33 [pchampin]
... we have used that term on occasions; also used in N3 (quoted formula)
15:20:54 [thomas]
q+
15:21:09 [pchampin]
... Too late to change "embeded" to "quoted"
15:21:26 [pchampin]
scribe-
15:21:32 [pchampin]
ack thomas
15:21:54 [AndyS]
thomas: +ve: useful term but -ve not what it looks like
15:21:58 [gkellogg]
q+
15:22:14 [pchampin]
ack gkellogg
15:22:14 [james]
q+
15:22:31 [TallTed]
Grammar remains the same, but comprehension would rise dramatically.
15:23:07 [pchampin]
q+
15:23:30 [pchampin]
ack james
15:23:30 [AndyS]
AndyS: wholesale change is a change to grammar e.g. embTriple
15:24:13 [AndyS]
james: either replace usaes or be careful to mention in one place "behaves as ..."
15:24:18 [TallTed]
q+
15:24:23 [pchampin]
ack pchampin
15:24:30 [AndyS]
s/usaes/uses/
15:24:51 [ora]
q+
15:25:25 [AndyS]
pchampin: non-normative language
15:25:44 [AndyS]
... possibility: "quoted" => not asserted.
15:25:45 [AndyS]
q+
15:26:01 [james]
q+
15:26:24 [pchampin]
ack TallTed
15:27:38 [AndyS]
TallTed: I find "unasserted" useful - use unasserted==quoted throughout.
15:28:19 [pchampin]
ack ora
15:28:50 [AndyS]
ora: with strong opinion, now is the time to change terminology - we are not REC track yet.
15:29:09 [thomas]
s/with/without
15:29:11 [pchampin]
ack AndyS
15:29:20 [TallTed]
s/I find "unasserted" useful - use unasserted==quoted throughout/I find "quoted" useful - communicates unasserted better than "embedded" -- and I would do so throughout/
15:29:49 [ora]
s/without strong opinion/without strong opinion on what specific words we use
15:30:16 [TallTed]
q+
15:30:18 [thomas]
the embedded triple is unasserted AND quoted
15:31:37 [ora]
q+
15:32:38 [rivettp]
we want to capture "not necessarily asserted" which is a bit of a mouthful
15:32:43 [pchampin]
ack james
15:33:38 [thomas]
q+
15:34:19 [AndyS]
james: this qualification makes it complicated - quoted works, "assertion" has extra language to say it is the local usage intended.
15:34:19 [thomas]
quoted to me refers to referential opacity, so is not about assertion
15:34:38 [pchampin]
ack TallTed
15:35:16 [AndyS]
TallTed: grammar term embTriple will cause embedded in people's mind.
15:35:23 [pchampin]
q+
15:35:52 [AndyS]
...challenge is communicate and express the effect of the <<>>
15:36:04 [AndyS]
... need care
15:36:16 [pchampin]
ack ora
15:37:10 [AndyS]
ora: original RDF - similar issues - reification examples helped.
15:37:14 [pchampin]
ack thomas
15:37:40 [AndyS]
q+
15:38:13 [pchampin]
ack AndyS
15:38:15 [TallTed]
+1000 examples ... and it's helpful to build later examples upon/from earlier examples
15:38:27 [pchampin]
scribe+
15:38:56 [pchampin]
AndyS: suggest to turn this into some action, to see what would be the impact
15:39:08 [pchampin]
... can work on it during the summer
15:39:21 [pchampin]
scribe-
15:39:26 [pchampin]
ack pchampin
15:40:19 [james]
q+
15:40:36 [pchampin]
ack james
15:41:14 [AndyS]
pchampin: Notions -- :s :p :o and <<:s :p :o>> -- unchanged.
15:41:22 [gkellogg]
q+
15:41:29 [thomas]
q+
15:41:39 [AndyS]
james - "quoted" works better than "embedded".
15:41:39 [TallTed]
"embedded" is not clearly distinguished from "asserted" nor "unasserted"
15:41:46 [pchampin]
ack gkellogg
15:41:59 [AndyS]
james: "quoted" works better than "embedded".
15:43:11 [ora]
q+
15:43:25 [AndyS]
gkellogg: quoted - and may elsewhere be asserted.
15:43:47 [pchampin]
ack thomas
15:43:52 [AndyS]
... "embedded" keep but "quoted" is more accurate to the way people think about it.
15:44:22 [AndyS]
thomas: now prefer "quoted"
15:44:36 [pchampin]
q?
15:44:39 [pchampin]
ack ora
15:45:08 [AndyS]
ora: like "quoted" and it's like lisp
15:46:08 [AndyS]
gkellog: yes - there is a quoted triple there.
15:46:21 [AndyS]
s/gkellog/gkellogg/
15:46:28 [thomas]
q+
15:46:58 [pchampin]
ack thomas
15:47:48 [AndyS]
thomas: "embedded" when written, "quoted" in abstract syntax.
15:48:45 [AndyS]
ACTION: AndyS: cintune issue already opened
15:48:47 [pchampin]
q?
15:49:00 [pchampin]
zakim, open agendum 5
15:49:00 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- WG draft charter -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:49:09 [AndyS]
s/cintune/continue/
15:49:13 [AndyS]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg-charter/issues/1
15:50:26 [AndyS]
pchampin: several SPARQL RECs to update.
15:50:38 [AndyS]
... needs updating to RDF 1.1
15:51:01 [AndyS]
... makes the scope of RDF-star WG much larger
15:51:55 [AndyS]
gkellogg: split makes a coordination problem. Better is one WG with subgroups.
15:52:12 [AndyS]
... need to coordinate with JSON-LD WG (maintainence)
15:52:26 [AndyS]
TallTed: agree.
15:52:59 [ora]
q+
15:53:36 [pchampin]
ack ora
15:54:18 [AndyS]
ora: RDF / RDFS turned out to be not the way to work. There was a big overlap.
15:54:26 [pchampin]
q+
15:55:23 [AndyS]
jay: wikidata is significant to us (company).
15:56:08 [ora]
q+
15:56:19 [pchampin]
ack pchampin
15:56:40 [AndyS]
pchampin: yes, stability is important
15:57:05 [AndyS]
q+
15:57:50 [TallTed]
makes some sense ... alignment to an implementation or deployment (e.g., Wikidata, which has broken from the standard in some significant ways), however, as opposed to alignment to a *standard*, less sense
15:57:50 [pchampin]
ack ora
15:57:57 [TallTed]
q+
15:58:13 [AndyS]
ora: I agree that stability is significant and important.
16:00:00 [pchampin]
ack AndyS
16:00:08 [pchampin]
scribe+
16:00:18 [pchampin]
AndyS: I assumed it would be one group, organizing itself as it wants
16:00:39 [pchampin]
... Once upon the time, there was an RDF coordination group
16:00:59 [pchampin]
... Of course, we must hope enough people turn up.
16:01:23 [pchampin]
... There is a danger a scope creep.
16:02:10 [pchampin]
... The language of the charter must keep the scope focused.
16:02:51 [ora]
q+
16:02:54 [pchampin]
ack TallTed
16:04:35 [pchampin]
ack ora
16:05:42 [ora]
bye
16:05:46 [AndyS]
zakim, please leave us
16:05:46 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'please leave us', AndyS
16:05:52 [thomas]
ora?
16:06:00 [AndyS]
rrsagent, please excuse us
16:06:00 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2021/07/02-rdf-star-actions.rdf :
16:06:00 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: AndyS: cintune issue already opened [1]
16:06:00 [RRSAgent]
recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/07/02-rdf-star-irc#T15-48-45