Meeting minutes
<jesdaigle> +present
<Jemma> https://
https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/June-28,-2021-Agenda
Setup and Review Agenda
Jemma: next meeting July 15th
HTML Range Slider Example
<Jemma> HTML Temperature Slider PR #1757
Jemma: need review by Matt and Jes
Matt_King: was question of events being monitored answered?
Matt_King: we are going to use 2 events instead of one
Jemma: did you have a chance to read the comment on Narrator?
<Jemma> this example uses the change and pointermove events and it is working on iOS and Android. Thanks for looking into this.
jongund: we are not using Narrator.
Matt_King: I agree, this is a non issue.
Jemma: are we still waiting on review?
Matt_King: i don't see any comments. We are waiting on Jes and myself.
Rating Radios
<Jemma> https://
Jemma: Jon commented IOS radio group is not read.
Jemma: can we ask James to review?
jongund: he could possibly review
Matt_King: not sure if James is the proper one to review
Matt_King: we have functional and visual design review
Matt_King: I see Siri has signed up.
Jemma: does anyone want to review the example?
Jemma: Siri sent zoom chat to assign to her.
Matt_King: design is different but implemented not to look like radios. We want something that is expected on a modern website in this widget.
Jemma: it was interesting the zero star for visual design
Matt_King: the radio doesn't have a zero
Jemma: the example shows
Matt_King: is there a reason for having two examples?
jongund: one shows 1 star minimum the other shows zero stars
Matt_King: I want to keep the example as simple as possible. I vote for one radio group
jamesn: if someone shows a website that shows the 1 star but I have never seen one.
Matt_King: I do not know if the second group enhances our example
Jemma: if removal of the second then visual design is approved.
Matt_King: Jemma if you approve then that concludes review
Matt_King: thank you for volunteering for functional review Siri
Tree Example - Set aria-selected to active tree view item
<Jemma> sarah's comment
<Jemma> https://
sarah_higley: the person that created the PR didn't set it properly. We should focus on visual focus selected style.
Matt_King: so you are saying in examples are not used properly?
sarah_higley: yes, that is correct. You have to select it.
Matt_King: is everything in the tree selectable?
<Jemma> https://
sarah_higley: do we want aria selectable??
Matt_King: my thinking is they should all be selectable
sarah_higley: they are all selectable
Matt_King: in that case selection does not follow focus
Jemma: waiting on new PR
Matt_King: we had a question on what is required by the spec.
Matt_King: we do need the PR for the tree item
jongund: we can create a new one
Matt_King: let us see if the author modifies their PR
Tooltip Design Draft
<Jemma> https://
<Jemma> https://
<Jemma> by Bryan
Matt_King: ultimate goal is to put useful guidance in the tool tip design pattern
Matt_King: it is currently a token section
Matt_King: a link to an issue has generated a lot of discussion. Bryan to summarize the discussion.
Matt_King: hope here is to come to conclusion on some of the types of guidance to add/remove from the tool tip design pattern.
bryan: content of tool tip depends on what you are trying to accomplish.
Matt_King: if it were to focusable would it be a dialog?
bryan: yes, can cause poor layouts.
Matt_King: hesitant to add new vocabulary to the APG
Matt_King: unless it is terminology we need to concisely write guidance then the creation of new terms might not help.
Matt_King: how important is distinguishing one type of tool tip.
<jamesn> +1 to introduce the term toggletip
sarah_higley: I suggest having a separate name for on hover than on click. The two get conflated. People do not separate them.
bryan: that would help define for developers.
Jemma: james +1 one the comment
Matt_King: normally don't hear designers refer to it as tooltip
bryan: normally help icon
Matt_King: can we call it a toogle tip?
jamesn: I don't hear our designers talking about hover. I hear the term pop-overs.
<sarah_higley> here's the Open UI research for tooltip, with the various names: https://
Jemma: as a former U
Jemma: as a former UX designer there is usually a design library componenet
jongund: we used to talk about input assistance
jongund: what is the difference between a tooltip and error feedback?
Matt_King: error feedback is not normally caused by hover or focus
<Jemma> https://
sarah_higley: we should not include error feedback as an example
<Jemma> "Definition: A tooltip is a brief, informative message that appears when a user interacts with an element in a graphical user interface (GUI). Tooltips are usually initiated in one of two ways: through a mouse-hover gesture or through a keyboard-hover gesture."
sarah_higley: showing an error icon to click/hover is a bad pattern
<jamesn> +1 error information should be persistent
Matt_King: so none of the error information should be in a pattern?
sarah_higley: yes, not showing a model for anyone
siri: tooltips should never include essential information
Matt_King: bryan what is your position on this?
bryan: it is hard to define what essential information is. it means different things to different people. you can allow the announcement of a tooltip to be the sole source of the element. you would need to be able to navigate into it.
Jemma: tooltip is contextual, it can be critical information and not critical information. They are there to add supplemental information to understand the context better.
<Jemma> "They provide descriptions or explanations for their paired element. Thus, tooltips are highly contextual and specific and don’t explain the bigger picture or entire task flow."
Matt_King: if we were to write "tooltips should never include critical information" is excessively restrictive.
sarah_higley: even aside from mechanical access tool tips are not accessible to all. It is a lazy method done when the design has not been figured out yet.
sarah_higley: I think we should give guidance on how tool tips are to be used because they are used poorly throughout the web.
sarah_higley: limit characters, what elements should applied to..
Matt_King: help me understand the tool tips, difference between persistent txt and when it receives focus.
sarah_higley: in a past study the participants did not prefer the hover tip
jongund: I propose a sub group
Matt_King: agreed, need consensus to boil down what this should look like.
jamesn: need to be careful to not convey this way is the best way for every interface.
<sarah_higley> It Depends™ :D
Matt_King: would be awesome to get some people together that commented on the thread.
jongund: we have alot of people here that can comment and come to consensus.
Matt_King: if we could have the behaviors for the tool tip role
Jemma: since bryan did the first draft why don't we have sarah to take over.
Matt_King: if we can other people from the community involved it would be great
<Jemma> https://
sarah_higley: yes, let me read through it and then trying to reach out to the community.
Jemma: yes that was effective.
Accordion
sarah_higley: i will read the comments and respond back at next meeting.
Jemma: we did not get to the topic of expedited PR review.
Matt_King: we can talk about this on July 13th meeting.