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15:01:38 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Meeting: PEWG
15:01:46 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Chair: Patrick H. Lauke
15:02:22 <flackr> flackr has joined #pointerevents
15:02:25 <flackr> present+
15:02:40 <smaug> present+
15:02:49 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/9718517d-0e08-4377-bb7c-07332948233b/20210623T110000
15:03:00 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Scribe: Patrick H. Lauke
15:03:32 <Patrick_H_Lauke> TOPIC: Review 'Expand explanation for non-coalesced events' https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/pull/379 (in particular, use of "measurable" in the definition)
15:07:02 <mustaq> present+
15:08:49 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: [explains the conundrum we had with continuous/discrete / measurable/countable, etc]
15:09:30 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: concern about including/listing UI-Events ... are there more properties?
15:09:53 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: reason why i didn't want to list all properties, what if things change or other specs add more properties
15:10:05 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: think PR is quite close though
15:10:21 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: will see if there are suggestions to make on this
15:11:34 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Mustaq: would also remove shiftkey/altkey/metakey as they don't fire pointer events at all
15:12:15 <Patrick_H_Lauke> present+ mustaq
15:14:54 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: maybe we can even give the example about button not being continuous as the value just changes, you don't get the "in-between" values
15:16:17 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: might be getting too deep into weeds of buttons which is not even our spec
15:16:39 <Patrick_H_Lauke> ACTION: review this PR for next meeting and suggest changes by then
15:17:12 <Patrick_H_Lauke> TOPIC: Review 'task queue is not reliable HTML concept. Use event loop instead' https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/pull/386
15:17:56 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: we are getting better at referencing, but other specs can tell when WE do bad referencing. task queue not reliable concept, so should use event loop
15:19:03 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: defer to other people who are more knowledgeable
15:19:21 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: it's ... ok
15:19:57 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: technically you put a task into the queue...
15:20:08 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Mustaq: the spec does handwave saying that "queue is not a queue"
15:20:38 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: we rely on DOM to fire event, so we don't have to say anything about when/how to fire
15:21:01 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: so we happy to merge this?
15:21:15 <Patrick_H_Lauke> [no concerns]
15:21:49 <Patrick_H_Lauke> ACTION: merge and close
15:22:09 <Patrick_H_Lauke> TOPIC: Review 'Simplify/clarify coalesced and predicted events' https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/pull/377
15:26:11 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: I should have more time soon, so can look at this for next meeting
15:26:53 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: if anybody else also has any ideas, jump in. the PR is mostly ok, the last sticking point was the need to go into the targeting/retargeting (my PR was a bit too brutal in removing it altogether)
15:27:13 <Patrick_H_Lauke> ACTION: Rob to review this PR and add suggested wording for the targeting issue
15:27:54 <Patrick_H_Lauke> TOPIC: Unclear note about PointerEvent initialization of attributes to reflect coalesced events https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/374
15:29:30 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: high-level purpose here is that developers don't need to care about the individual (non-coalesced) events, but just look at the fired events
15:31:06 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: but is this going into the weeds of sometihng we don't want to define/that they shouldn't care?
15:31:28 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: this is just to reinforce/give an example
15:31:52 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: implementation shouldn't need to do this, but this is only an example
15:33:01 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: any value in me having a stab at generalising this, without having to give a specific example?
15:34:50 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: movement is a good example though - it's a delta from the last change
15:35:19 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Mustaq: we could say this without mentioning pointerlock
15:35:29 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: yes this is true even without pointerlock
15:36:06 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: I might give a try proposing a slightly more generalised wording, without mentioning pointerlock, that achieves same
15:36:21 <Patrick_H_Lauke> ACTION: Patrick to propose more generalised wording for the note
15:36:39 <Patrick_H_Lauke> TOPIC: The behavior of getCoalescedEvent in pointerevent_constructor.html is inconsistent with the spec https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/229
15:37:50 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: is this going to be resolved by the work Rob is going to do on the PR?
15:38:10 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: we were going to say this is true for trusted events
15:38:25 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: will review this and the other related issues
15:38:52 <Patrick_H_Lauke> "This API always returns at least one coalesced event for pointermove events and an empty list for other types of PointerEvents." https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/224
15:38:59 <Patrick_H_Lauke> How is pointer event ctor supposed to work when coalescedEvents is passed using the PointerEventInit https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/223
15:39:08 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: I can try to write some PR
15:39:22 <Patrick_H_Lauke> ACTION: Olli to review/propose PRs for these
15:40:00 <Patrick_H_Lauke> TOPIC: HTML monkeypatching: initiate the drag-and-drop operation definition https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/384 and HTML monkeypatching: animation frame callbacks https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/385
15:41:21 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: Starting with the drag and drop one #384
15:41:41 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: we should do this, but think it's still not possible to write platform test for d'n'd. at least wasn't last time
15:42:17 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: you agree we should add the spec the requirement to fire pointercancel etc?
15:42:21 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: that or add a hook
15:42:34 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: they declined to add a hook. asked for it to be exported
15:42:58 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: should i make a stab at this?
15:43:09 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: i don't have time for this right now
15:43:14 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Mustaq: I can take a look
15:44:12 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: you're it mustaq, assigned you. next up animation frame monkeypatching
15:44:56 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: ... it's about scheduling of tasks, and that's not defined anywhere. HTML spec lets you schedule tasks any way you want. maybe we should clarify somehow in PE spec, not sure how
15:45:18 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: domenic suggested adding a new function to fire pointer event
15:45:27 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: it's not even about pointer events...
15:45:50 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: it also doesn't have any well defined time WHEN you want to fire, you may want to do it before or after, depending on performance etc
15:45:58 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: implementations will likely change over time
15:46:17 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: we could say it should happen at some point between two points - producing a frame
15:46:46 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Olli: even that could be not true / browser may choose to paint more and listen to events less, depending on priority. would prefer having plenty of flexibility
15:48:05 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: i think it's a "soft" *may* we use in that sentence in the spec
15:48:13 <Patrick_H_Lauke> https://w3c.github.io/pointerevents/#the-pointermove-event
15:48:59 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: only thing we can guarantee is that events will be dispatched in order
15:49:10 <Patrick_H_Lauke> we would flush coalesced events before next fired event
15:50:13 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: we could remove the sentence altogether as we already say things in the specific coalesced events section
15:51:04 <Patrick_H_Lauke> PLH: suggest either removing the sentence, or moving it to the section for coalesced. and we don't mention animation callbacks
15:53:40 <mustaq> https://w3c.github.io/pointerevents/#the-pointerrawupdate-event
15:53:44 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Mustaq: there's also mention of animation (without link) in the pointerraw
15:54:20 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: could we just change "which might be aligned to animation callbacks" to "which might be delayed"
15:54:32 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Rob: we just need to say that raw events will not be delayed
15:55:09 <Patrick_H_Lauke> ACTION: Patrick to write PR that removes the referenced animation frame callback sentence altogether and removes mention in pointerraw
15:56:49 <Patrick_H_Lauke> Patrick: thank you all, see you in two weeks' time
15:57:08 <Patrick_H_Lauke> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
15:57:19 <Patrick_H_Lauke> rrsagent, create minutes
15:57:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-pointerevents-minutes.html Patrick_H_Lauke
16:00:48 <Patrick_H_Lauke> hmm...seems to take a long time to generate these minutes. is the functionality working?
16:03:21 <Patrick_H_Lauke> rrsagent, create minutes
16:03:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-pointerevents-minutes.html Patrick_H_Lauke
16:04:45 <plh> plh has joined #pointerevents
16:04:50 <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes v2
16:04:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-pointerevents-minutes.html plh
16:05:26 <Patrick_H_Lauke> plh, seems to be stuck...
16:05:55 <plh> indeed. probably related to our ongoing cloud issue :(
16:06:19 <plh> it will show up at some point, no worries. let me know if you need them asap
16:06:21 <Patrick_H_Lauke> yeah was thinking that. ok, i'll do a rough and ready manual minutes thing and email it
16:06:42 <Patrick_H_Lauke> with link to that url which hopefully will work eventually :)
16:06:48 <plh> ok
16:13:05 <Patrick_H_Lauke> rrsagent, bye
16:13:05 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-pointerevents-actions.rdf :
16:13:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: review this PR for next meeting and suggest changes by then [1]
16:13:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-pointerevents-irc#T15-16-39
16:13:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: merge and close [2]
16:13:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-pointerevents-irc#T15-21-49
16:13:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Rob to review this PR and add suggested wording for the targeting issue [3]
16:13:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-pointerevents-irc#T15-27-13
16:13:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Patrick to propose more generalised wording for the note [4]
16:13:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-pointerevents-irc#T15-36-21
16:13:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Olli to review/propose PRs for these [5]
16:13:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-pointerevents-irc#T15-39-22
16:13:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Patrick to write PR that removes the referenced animation frame callback sentence altogether and removes mention in pointerraw [6]
16:13:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-pointerevents-irc#T15-55-09