19:54:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dxwgdcat
19:54:30 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-dxwgdcat-irc
19:54:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:54:32 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dxwgdcat
19:54:34 <trackbot> Meeting: Dataset Exchange Working Group Teleconference
19:54:34 <trackbot> Date: 23 June 2021
19:55:02 <riccardoAlbertoni> RRSAgent, draft minutes
19:55:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
19:57:07 <riccardoAlbertoni> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:57:31 <riccardoAlbertoni> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
19:57:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
20:00:58 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwgdcat
20:01:09 <DaveBrowning> DaveBrowning has joined #dxwgdcat
20:02:05 <AndreaPerego> present+
20:02:24 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+
20:03:52 <DaveBrowning> present+
20:04:18 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:04:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:05:35 <riccardoAlbertoni> regret+ alejandra
20:05:41 <AndreaPerego> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2021.06.23
20:05:45 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:05:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:06:01 <PWinstanley> PWinstanley has joined #dxwgdcat
20:06:25 <DaveBrowning> regrets+ alejandra
20:06:42 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:06:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:06:54 <riccardoAlbertoni> PROPOSED: approve last meeting minutes  https://www.w3.org/2021/06/09-dxwgdcat-minutes
20:06:59 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
20:07:11 <DaveBrowning> +1
20:07:17 <AndreaPerego> chair: riccardoAlbertoni
20:07:22 <AndreaPerego> scribenick: DaveBrowning
20:07:25 <AndreaPerego> +1
20:08:40 <PWinstanley_> PWinstanley_ has joined #dxwgdcat
20:08:49 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:08:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:08:51 <PWinstanley_> present+
20:09:22 <PWinstanley_> 0 - absent
20:09:26 <riccardoAlbertoni> RESOLVED: approve last meeting minutes  https://www.w3.org/2021/06/09-dxwgdcat-minutes
20:09:32 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:09:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:09:36 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://www.w3.org/2017/dxwg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2021.06.23
20:10:15 <riccardoAlbertoni> TOPIC: Defining a consistent approach to deal with inverse properties -
20:10:29 <AndreaPerego> topic: Discussion topics
20:10:37 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Ainverse-properties
20:10:43 <AndreaPerego> s/topic: Discussion topics//
20:11:10 <DaveBrowning> riccardoAlbertoni: General issue around inverse properties and diverse views
20:11:59 <DaveBrowning> ... Some people want inverse properties (either specific examples or as general principle)
20:12:37 <DaveBrowning> ... Also have people strongly opposing
20:13:06 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:13:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:13:07 <DaveBrowning> ... having two directions makes things harder for publishers and consumers
20:13:29 <DaveBrowning> ... Discussion a few months back were inconclusive
20:14:00 <riccardoAlbertoni> https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/issues/1336
20:14:05 <DaveBrowning> ... PROV took approach of standardising one direction only
20:15:08 <DaveBrowning> ... but 'reserve' the name for the inverse if people wanted to use it - so that we don't end up with many slightly different versions
20:15:51 <DaveBrowning> ...  Suggestion to mimic PROV wasn't enthusiastically received.
20:16:15 <DaveBrowning> ...  Can we progress this issue area?
20:16:26 <AndreaPerego> q+
20:16:34 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack AndreaPerego
20:17:59 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: Interoperability is affected if we have too many options but in many cases there are use cases which need to have both
20:18:30 <DaveBrowning> ... For example various forms of display.
20:18:32 <DaveBrowning> If
20:18:57 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: If we don't provide it people will mint there own (different ones)
20:19:32 <DaveBrowning> ... We have seen use cases for specific cases where inverses are needed.
20:19:57 <DaveBrowning> ... DCAT doesn't have a consistent approach to naming like PROV.
20:21:11 <DaveBrowning> ...Perhaps, add new section in normative part, called "Inverse properties"  which gather the optional inverses
20:22:01 <DaveBrowning> ... These could be used as additional terms
20:22:05 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:22:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:22:58 <DaveBrowning> PWinstanely:  Strongest  argument is that people will do it themselves unless we provide some organisation
20:23:09 <riccardoAlbertoni> q?
20:23:11 <riccardoAlbertoni> q+
20:23:41 <DaveBrowning> ... Do we have any symmetrical properties we would need to cover?
20:24:09 <DaveBrowning> ...  Would it restrict some uses of reasoners?
20:24:20 <DaveBrowning> riccardoAlbertoni: Probably not.
20:24:22 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack riccardoAlbertoni
20:24:38 <AndreaPerego> meeting: DXWG DCAT subgroup meeting
20:24:40 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:24:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:26:00 <DaveBrowning> ... At beginning of REC we say we are not bound to a particular implementation technology
20:26:28 <AndreaPerego> q+ to note that minutes are not getting updated
20:27:00 <DaveBrowning> ... but we are hearing that some technologies do have constraints and weaknesses that make the inverses necessary
20:27:35 <DaveBrowning> ...  If we provide a section are we really axiomatising?
20:28:16 <riccardoAlbertoni> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:28:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
20:30:05 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: Perhaps we do step by step - update text specification and then discuss updating RDF
20:30:51 <DaveBrowning> riccardoAlbertoni: If we did want to provide RDF we could keep this in a separate file
20:31:38 <DaveBrowning> PROPOSED:  Prepare draft along this approach and then use review to refine
20:31:51 <AndreaPerego> +1
20:32:02 <riccardoAlbertoni> +
20:32:06 <DaveBrowning> +1
20:32:11 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
20:32:57 <PWinstanley_> +1
20:33:27 <DaveBrowning> RESOLVED: Prepare draft along this approach and then use review to refine
20:34:14 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: I'm happy to prepare the draft
20:34:20 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:34:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:34:42 <AndreaPerego> action: AndreaPerego to prepare a draft of a new section on inverse properties
20:34:48 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:34:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego
20:34:50 <trackbot> Error creating an ACTION: could not connect to Tracker.  Please mail <sysreq@w3.org> with details about what happened.
20:35:23 <riccardoAlbertoni>  TOPIC: Open issues on data services - specification of output format /schema, services with multiple endpoints https://github.com/w3c/dxwg/projects/12
20:36:30 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: Overall, there are a number of issues asking about some gaps in what we say to data services
20:37:55 <DaveBrowning> ... Some are rooted in early conversations we had in DCAT 2 where we decided that we didn't want to take on describing all kinds of API
20:39:01 <DaveBrowning> ... So we provide a link to an description of the endpoint.  But we have requests for this to include particular features such as metadata schemas supported etc
20:39:55 <riccardoAlbertoni> q?
20:39:56 <DaveBrowning> ... These requests came from different domains/customers - suggests we should provide more guidance on what kind of features (e.g. languages supported)
20:39:58 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack AndreaPerego
20:39:58 <Zakim> AndreaPerego, you wanted to note that minutes are not getting updated
20:40:32 <DaveBrowning> ... we should decide whether we want to deal with this and how
20:40:42 <riccardoAlbertoni> +q
20:42:11 <DaveBrowning> ... Also different urls can get confused across different end point descriptions
20:42:16 <riccardoAlbertoni> q?
20:42:23 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack riccardoAlbertoni
20:43:50 <DaveBrowning> riccardoAlbertoni: re: Different point for same services - why is this an issue
20:44:51 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: It obscures the link between the services - these are like distributions for the same dataset
20:46:51 <DaveBrowning> ...  We do seem to have examples where we have the same service but different end points
20:48:10 <DaveBrowning> riccardoAlbertoni: My concern is that by changing this stuff about end point that we break something - we need to remain consistent with DCAT 2
20:48:42 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: Suggest we focus on output formats, query languages etc
20:49:28 <DaveBrowning> ... then see if we can address the others once we done something
20:49:36 <DaveBrowning> q+
20:50:19 <DaveBrowning> riccardoAlbertoni: There is already a way to specify this, but more than one way outside of DCAT.
20:50:51 <riccardoAlbertoni> q?
20:50:51 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: Not suggesting that we try to fix that problem
20:50:59 <riccardoAlbertoni> ack DaveBrowning
20:51:58 <PWinstanley_> DaveBrowning: what you're suggesting is the thin end of a wedge - we need to be clearer about the characteristics relevant to description of the endpoint that relate to DCAT and nothing more
20:52:58 <PWinstanley_> ... and we should stick to having a go at that, using real examples, and not get sucked into the detail of anything other than what this means for DCAT
20:53:01 <riccardoAlbertoni> q?
20:53:11 <PWinstanley_> ... I think we should try to  improve the situation
20:54:47 <DaveBrowning> PWinstanley_: This could be a bit of a tar ball of a problem
20:55:21 <DaveBrowning> ... does "conforms to" help?
20:55:37 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: Not particularly (at least as we understand it)
20:56:38 <DaveBrowning> ...  Work on schema.org extensions for various domains has been done - perhaps we can look  the approaches taken there as inspiration
20:57:12 <DaveBrowning> riccardoAlbertoni: Perhaps part of the issue is the limited number of examples we have
20:59:03 <PWinstanley_> rrsagent, create minutes v2
20:59:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html PWinstanley_
20:59:52 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: We can look at whats been asked for (via github etc) - eg clearly related to DCAT.  People are interested in parameters for queries for example but this is going a bit too far
21:00:26 <DaveBrowning> ... Address the closest things and then see where we are
21:01:40 <DaveBrowning> AndreaPerego: Follow this up in the next call after we've done our homework?  We can decide (if we meet 7th July)
21:06:39 <riccardoAlbertoni> rrsagent, create minutes v2
21:06:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html riccardoAlbertoni
21:20:29 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #dxwgdcat
21:20:37 <AndreaPerego> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:20:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/23-dxwgdcat-minutes.html AndreaPerego