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13:59:47 <jeanne> meeting: Joint ACT-Silver Testing
13:59:58 <jeanne> chair: jeanne, Wilco
14:00:08 <jeanne> present:
14:00:11 <jeanne> present+
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14:01:17 <JakeAbma> present+
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14:01:58 <anne_thyme> present+
14:02:15 <shadi> present+
14:02:17 <Francis_Storr> present+
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14:03:07 <Wilco> agenda+ review work done on Outcomes proposal
14:03:12 <Wilco> agenda+ identifying definitions and volunteers for drafts
14:03:16 <Wilco> agenda+ moving from tests to Expectations
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14:03:22 <Wilco> present+
14:03:35 <DavidASx> present+
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14:05:12 <Jennifer> present+
14:08:22 <Francis_Storr> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vsp1V2hBpU6Y0vNt-AGP-Y6fOxx1-IjoKgBJ_3bPlfg/edit#heading=h.5abhd9pz034w
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14:09:01 <jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vsp1V2hBpU6Y0vNt-AGP-Y6fOxx1-IjoKgBJ_3bPlfg/edit#heading=h.imejt9fcuvoy
14:11:44 <Wilco> q+
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14:12:29 <Jemma> present+
14:12:53 <SusanH> present+
14:13:00 <Jemma> q+
14:13:06 <Jemma> ack me
14:13:37 <Wilco> ack w
14:14:02 <Jemma> rrsagent, make minutes
14:14:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/14-wcag-act-minutes.html Jemma
14:15:31 <Jemma> rrsagent, make logs public
14:16:47 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:16:51 <shadi> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vsp1V2hBpU6Y0vNt-AGP-Y6fOxx1-IjoKgBJ_3bPlfg/edit#
14:17:07 <Wilco> ack br
14:17:09 <anne_thyme> q+
14:18:42 <ChrisLoiselle> In reading this, we are conflating outcomes and methods https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#outcomes-structure and https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#methods-structure . The "you should" leads to how one would do something, thus a method to achieve.
14:19:25 <Jemma> three bullet items are 1)Provide headings for sections of content
14:19:25 <Jemma> 2)Make headings descriptive of the content that follows
14:19:25 <Jemma> 3) Organize content so the headings make locating and navigating information easier and faster.
14:19:46 <Wilco> ack an
14:20:47 <Jemma>  I wonder where the landmark discussion wil be placed in the structured content rule
14:21:43 <Wilco> q+
14:22:41 <shadi> q+
14:24:04 <Wilco> ack sh
14:24:07 <Wilco> ack wi
14:24:11 <Jemma> q+ out of scope question re:html sectioning element
14:24:12 <shadi> q+
14:25:46 <shadi> ack me
14:28:11 <Jennifer> q+
14:28:22 <Jemma> q+ to ask about sectioning element
14:29:57 <jeanne> ack jemma
14:29:57 <Zakim> Jemma, you wanted to ask about sectioning element
14:31:51 <Jemma> yes, it make sense that we think beyond web.
14:33:07 <jeanne> Should we move to more granular Outcomes? Or stick to presentation, Function, and semantic?
14:33:08 <Jemma> fyi, sectioning element examples include nav, main, header, footer.
14:33:52 <Jennifer> The sectioning element examples are HTML -- which is not tech neutral.
14:34:50 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#structured-content
14:34:59 <bruce_bailey> i like keeping the presentation/function/semantic outcome
14:35:04 <shadi> q+
14:35:26 <jeanne> ack Jenn
14:35:39 <jeanne> 1) Headings organize content (outcome for "Structured content")
14:35:51 <jeanne> 2) Uses visually distinct headings (outcome for "Structured content")
14:36:04 <jeanne> 3) Conveys hierarchy with semantic structure (outcome for "Structured content")
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14:36:29 <ToddLibby> present+
14:37:48 <Skotkjerra_> I am lost too, but then I am a newcomer to this meeting and wor which also doesn't help.
14:38:20 <shadi> q-
14:38:48 <SusanH> Yes Jenn, it's not just you :)
14:38:50 <Skotkjerra_> +1
14:40:39 <Skotkjerra_> q+
14:42:35 <anne_thyme> q+
14:43:22 <shadi> ack Skotkjerra_
14:43:47 <Jennifer> Wouldn't tests be at the Method level?
14:45:50 <shadi> q+
14:45:55 <bruce_bailey> q+ to remind that methods may be many-to-many
14:46:03 <shadi> ack anne
14:48:03 <Skotkjerra_> q+
14:48:22 <Wilco> +100
14:48:30 <ToddLibby> +1
14:48:59 <shadi> ack me
14:49:51 <Jennifer> The explicitness clarifies expectation for developers and designers. Key to remember that this is not exclusively for developers, as it needs be considered earlier than at development. The designers and product folks I worked with literally fought tooth and nail because WCAG isn't explicit and detailed.
14:50:25 <Skotkjerra_> But try asking a lawyer to phrase legislations in plain language -t heir argument would be that that is by no means precise enough. But that is their profesion, this is ours - they are both requiring skills - we cannot change that, IMHO
14:50:42 <Jemma> yes, landmark is part of this discussion.
14:51:14 <jeanne> q?
14:51:20 <jeanne> ack bruce
14:51:20 <Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to remind that methods may be many-to-many
14:52:12 <Jemma> good summary of discusison, Bruce!
14:52:21 <shadi> +1
14:52:41 <ToddLibby> +1
14:52:42 <Jemma> +1
14:53:32 <Jemma> yes! more outcomes for structured content inclduing landmarks.
14:54:26 <Skotkjerra_> q-
14:54:46 <Jemma> q+ to ask about testing rule on visual heading.
14:55:54 <Jemma> 1) how to integreat ACT rule to wcag 3
14:56:42 <Jemma> s/integreat/integrate
14:56:44 <jeanne> Should we move to more granular Outcomes? Or stick to presentation, Function, and semantic?
14:56:57 <shadi> +1 to more granular outcomes
14:57:12 <Jemma> +1 what Bruce said.
14:57:20 <Jennifer> +1 to granular outcomes
14:57:27 <ToddLibby> +1 to more granular outcomes
14:57:37 <SusanH> +1 more granular
14:57:41 <bruce_bailey> +1 to more granular outcomes
14:57:41 <anne_thyme> +1
14:57:41 <Wilco> 0
14:57:56 <DavidASx> +1
14:58:11 <Skotkjerra_> +1
14:58:20 <bruce_bailey> just keep them technology neutral
14:58:48 <ToddLibby> agreed. keep them technology neutral
14:59:07 <Jennifer> Thank good ness for the transcript we have what Bruce said!
14:59:14 <bruce_bailey> present+
14:59:57 <Skotkjerra_> present+
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15:05:08 <ChrisLoiselle> present+
15:10:26 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#structured-content
15:19:52 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
15:19:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/14-wcag-act-minutes.html jeanne
15:51:00 <Zakim> Zakim will reboot in 4 minutes
15:54:46 <Zakim> Zakim restarting; apologies for the inconvenience
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