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14:44:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:44:33 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
14:44:42 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2021Jun/0000.html
14:44:53 <Ralph> agenda+ EPUBcheck Priorities
14:45:03 <Ralph> agenda+ Updating IDPF specs on idpf.org with in-place status
14:45:12 <Ralph> agenda+ Updating the Publishing@W3C landing page
14:45:24 <Ralph> agenda+  Around the Zoom Gallery
14:45:32 <Ralph> agenda+ AOB
14:45:40 <Ralph> regrets: Daihei
14:45:52 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2021/05/14-pbgsc-minutes previous: 14 May
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14:54:12 <George> present+
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14:58:57 <avneeshsingh> present+
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15:00:15 <wendyreid> present+
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15:01:01 <Ralph> present+
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15:01:32 <Ralph> present+ Avneesh, Dave, Tzviya, Ivan, WendyReid,Liisa,Bill_Kasdorf
15:01:38 <liisamk> present+
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15:01:53 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
15:02:10 <Ralph> action: Ralph figure out the calendaring issue that's annoying the EPUB WG
15:02:24 <Ralph> Tzviya: and ARIA
15:02:28 <Ralph> George: and Locators
15:02:43 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:03:15 <Ralph> present+ Cristina
15:04:13 <Ralph> zakim, who's on the call?
15:04:13 <Zakim> Present: George, avneeshsingh, wendyreid, Ralph, Dave, Tzviya, Ivan, Liisa, Bill_Kasdorf, liisamk, Cristina
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15:07:59 <Ralph> zakim, next item
15:07:59 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- EPUBcheck Priorities -- taken up [from Ralph]
15:08:06 <wendyreid> scribe+ Bill_Kasdorf
15:08:19 <Ralph> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2021Jun/0001.html Avneesh' intro
15:08:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> Topic: EPUBCheck priorities
15:08:29 <ivan> regrets+ daihei
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15:08:48 <Bill_Kasdorf> Avneesh: Starting phase 3 to create a prototype based on HTML validator
15:09:02 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Now being done manually
15:09:30 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... This prototype will explore migrating EPUBCheck to the HTML Validator
15:09:46 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Plan was to propose a standing committee to work on this.
15:10:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... If we move to HTML this will be really valuable
15:10:08 <ivan> q+
15:10:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... But there is another priority: Implementing EPUB 3.3
15:10:43 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:10:51 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... EPUB 3.3 won't be implemented if it isn't in EPUBCheck
15:11:12 <Ralph> present+ Mateus
15:11:13 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... As part of the contract the cost is $???
15:11:33 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Main decision: do we want to swap priorities?
15:11:42 <Ralph> s/???/the same as updating to support 3.3
15:11:52 <tzviya> s/???/13,100
15:11:57 <tzviya> ack iv
15:12:16 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ivan: Does the HTML validator properly check XHTML?
15:12:32 <Bill_Kasdorf> Avneesh: This is part of what we want to determine in the prototype
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15:12:56 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ivan: If we decide not to go to HTML 5, my priority is 3.3 unambiguously.
15:13:02 <dauwhe_> +3.3
15:13:31 <dauwhe_> q+
15:13:38 <Bill_Kasdorf> Tzviya: To be clear, the switch to 3.3 can be done without a cost change but we will still need to tweak the contract with Daisy.
15:13:47 <tzviya> ack dauwhe_
15:14:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Dave: Switching to the HTML Validator is "nice to have"; supporting 3.3 is a must.
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15:14:50 <wendyreid> Proposed: Shift focus of EPUBCheck to 3.3
15:14:56 <ivan> +1
15:14:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
15:14:57 <wendyreid> +1
15:14:59 <liisamk> +1
15:15:00 <tzviya> +1
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15:15:02 <dauwhe_> +3.3
15:15:10 <Ralph> +1
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15:15:41 <dauwhe_> q+
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15:15:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> Tzviya: We don't need to bring this to the wider group; we will just work with Richard and Daisy.
15:15:55 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... We may need other people from the EPUB 3 WG
15:16:09 <Cristina_> present+
15:16:11 <Bill_Kasdorf> Avneesh: We will be wrapping up the current phase in two months.
15:16:23 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... We will be looking for community feedback at that point
15:16:34 <tzviya> ack dauwhe_
15:16:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... After two months we will allow another two months for community feedback.
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15:16:48 <Bill_Kasdorf> Dave: What's the money situation?
15:17:14 <Bill_Kasdorf> Tzviya: We have enough money to finish out this contract, about $6,000.
15:17:30 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... We will have to do some fundraising for the $13,000 for the next phase.
15:17:50 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Luc will no longer be able to do this; exploring a replacement for Luc.
15:18:13 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... I hope the excitement of 3.3 will make the fundraising relatively easy.
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15:19:00 <Bill_Kasdorf> George: If the prototype works for both HTML and XHTML, will that reduce the cost of moving EPUBCheck to 3.3?
15:19:20 <tzviya> s/enough/almost enough
15:19:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> Avneesh: EPUB 2 also points to latest version of HTML; we just do it manually at this point.
15:20:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... In the short term this won't reduce our cost; in the long term it will make it easier to maintain.
15:20:10 <liisamk> q+
15:20:16 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Shift focus of EPUBCheck to 3.3
15:20:21 <tzviya> ack liisamk
15:20:24 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
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15:21:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> liisamk: Timing questions. We have focused on making catalogs accessible by 2025. This is a big project.
15:21:19 <wendyreid> q+
15:21:26 <dauwhe_> q+
15:21:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Should we recommend waiting for 3.3 to do this?
15:21:34 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
15:21:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... What implementation do we expect?
15:22:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> Wendy: I don't think 3.2 vs. 3.3 will matter that much for that project.
15:22:31 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... The revisions in 3.3 won't make that much difference for most EPUB; maybe more for FXL.
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15:22:47 <tzviya> ack dauwhe_
15:23:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> dauwhe: Nearly every existing EPUB 3 file will continue to be a valid EPUB 3.3 file.
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15:23:51 <George> q+
15:23:55 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... There may be some edge cases that would be relevant, but in general "EPUB 3 is a thing" and these point releases only affect the margins.
15:23:55 <tzviya> q+ to mention A11y spec
15:24:15 <tzviya> ack ge
15:24:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... In my company moving from EPUB 3.1 to EPUB 3.2 was easy.
15:25:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> George: New people should start with 3.3 but this should not be an issue for existing staff.
15:25:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ivan: Yes, the document is much clearer.
15:25:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> George: So as publishers update their files and workflows, they really should refer to 3.3.
15:25:43 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... If their 3.2 or older files pass EPUBCheck, there really isn't a problem.
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15:25:49 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... But always use 3.3 from now on.
15:25:53 <tzviya> ack tz
15:25:53 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to mention A11y spec
15:26:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> Tzviya: We have made significant improvements in a11y; plus we have the EPUB Accessibility spec.
15:26:44 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... The EPUB Accessibility spec is a significant spec to pay attention to in this work too.
15:27:11 <mateus> present+
15:27:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> Christina: We are focusing on EPUB 3 in general but not getting too wrapped around the axle on the dot versions.
15:28:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... The EU wants conformance with EPUB 3 but not necessarily every new or old version.
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15:29:06 <Bill_Kasdorf> Avneesh: You have been developing documents that show how we address the EUAA requirements.
15:29:26 <George> q+
15:29:36 <Bill_Kasdorf> Cristina: Yes, the document has been developed in the context of W3C based on existing open a11y standards.
15:29:44 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Document is available on the LIA website.
15:29:45 <tzviya> ack ra
15:30:16 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ralph: If we were to say wait, we give a confusing message about the compatibility issue. Just focus on EPUB 3.
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15:31:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> Cristina: It will be very complicated for publishers to address the backlist. The more we can stress compatibility between versions the better.
15:31:12 <Cristina_> https://www.fondazionelia.org/en/research-and-development/european-accessibility-act-requirements-are-publishing-standards-as-epub-onix-and-schema-org-fully-compliant/
15:31:21 <tzviya> ack George
15:31:56 <Bill_Kasdorf> George: I think the page navigation feature in EPUB 3 is a requirement of the EU. That wouild mean EPUB 2 would not be acceptable in the EU.
15:32:06 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Upgrading the backlist to EPUB 3 is advisable.
15:32:10 <avneeshsingh> EU requriements mentions navigation, not specifically page navigation
15:32:13 <wendyreid> q+
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15:32:53 <Bill_Kasdorf> Tzviya: The legislation itself is very vague; doesn't get into detail like that.
15:32:56 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
15:33:06 <Bill_Kasdorf> George: I still think our guidance should still be to update to EPUB 3.
15:33:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> wendyreid: Page level navigation--if the content has pagebreak locators in it--is WCAG A.
15:33:57 <avneeshsingh> it is first stage in WCAG 2.2, we will try to push for more page requirements in laternew version of WCAG
15:33:58 <Ralph> zakim, next item
15:33:58 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Updating IDPF specs on idpf.org with in-place status -- taken up [from Ralph]
15:34:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> Tzviya: Okay, there's still a lot to work out on the compliance issue.
15:34:07 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:34:18 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#page-break-navigation
15:34:33 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ralph: Topic: IDPF domain
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15:34:55 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ralph: We took a static snapshot when the W3C took over and that's now what we serve up.
15:35:23 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... The web has lots of links to those specs, including a set of specs that have not been worked on for a long time and may not be worked on again.
15:35:33 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... What should we do with those specs?
15:36:17 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... The proposal from Ivan, Matt, and I is to edit the static snapshot to add a message that "this document is obsolete."
15:36:35 <Bill_Kasdorf> Our proposal is to do just that for all of those 13 orphan specs.
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15:37:07 <dauwhe_> q+
15:37:26 <Bill_Kasdorf> George: All of the specs that have been updated by W3C point to the new specs.
15:37:34 <Bill_Kasdorf> Tzviya: yes.
15:38:02 <Bill_Kasdorf> George: The specs would still be there if somebody wanted to work on it in the future, correct?
15:38:08 <ivan> q+
15:38:10 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ralph: Yes.
15:38:13 <tzviya> ack dauwhe_
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15:38:51 <Bill_Kasdorf> Dave: We need people to understand the status of these specs. E.g. we don't want folks to think you have to do what the indexing spec says in your EPUBs.
15:39:06 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:39:44 <tzviya> q+
15:39:52 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ivan: I don't think we've put any such header in, e.g., EPUB 3.1. That one should have a header that points to 3.2 or 3.3.
15:39:59 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Those should be added to the list as well.
15:40:13 <dauwhe_> http://idpf.org/epub/31/
15:40:32 <dauwhe_> http://idpf.org/epub/31/spec/epub-spec.html
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15:44:03 <Cristina_> q+
15:44:24 <ivan> q+
15:44:26 <tzviya> ack me
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15:44:55 <Bill_Kasdorf> Tzviya: There are many documents that carry such warnings.
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15:45:22 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ralph: Yes, similar status messages should be added to 3.1 and other similar documents.
15:45:24 <tzviya> ack Cristina_
15:45:59 <dauwhe_> q+
15:46:21 <tzviya> ack ivan
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15:47:09 <tzviya> ack dauwhe_
15:47:38 <tzviya> +1 to dauwhe_
15:47:58 <Bill_Kasdorf> dauwhe: We really owe it to the community to do this.
15:48:25 <Ralph> zakim, next item
15:48:25 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Updating the Publishing@W3C landing page -- taken up [from Ralph]
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15:48:58 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ivan: It is very outdated. It's not clear to me who the target community is.
15:49:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... The links on the left are very useful to the people doing technical work.
15:49:24 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/publishing/
15:49:25 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/publishing/ Publishing@W3C
15:49:46 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... There are testimonials dating back to IDPF becoming part of W3C that are obsolete.
15:50:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... What should the message be? Who should we address? What's the target audience for that page?
15:50:32 <liisamk> q+
15:50:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> Tzviya: Does anybody go here? Do we need to even do this?
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15:50:59 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ivan: The cheapest and easiest thing to do is to use it as an index page.
15:51:02 <tzviya> ack lii
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15:51:10 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... That's not how it was developed initially.
15:51:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> Liisa: This is valuable to people we'd like to have join the community.
15:51:41 <tzviya> ack ra
15:51:42 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/ "Publishing" in the "Web and Industry" navbar
15:51:47 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Having one page that is rah rah about this work is still a good thing, just needs to be updated.
15:52:23 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ralph: Publishing has a prominent spot on the W3C home page; we should use this in some way.
15:52:35 <mateus> q+
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15:52:49 <tzviya> ack mateus
15:53:15 <Bill_Kasdorf> Mateus: Do we have any analytics or other usage information? How high in search index results is this page?
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15:53:54 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... My gut feeling is there are 3 communities: people trying to find a spec; people interested in the current work; people who might want to actually contribute, feature requests, etc.
15:54:00 <tzviya> q+
15:54:04 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... It would be good if we had some data about this.
15:54:17 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ivan: I doubt that we have useful analytics.
15:54:18 <dauwhe_> Yikes. Only top-10 google result for "EPUB" is https://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/ebook/
15:54:34 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ralph: We don't do Google Analytics but we might have some kinds of access counts.
15:54:39 <dauwhe_> s/top-10/top-10 for w3c/
15:54:41 <tzviya> ack me
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15:54:57 <Bill_Kasdorf> Tzviya: Agree with Mateus.
15:55:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Currently it just looks like a wall of text and isn't helpful.
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15:55:50 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Simple intro and very short explanation of what the groups do.
15:55:53 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:56:12 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
15:56:15 <Ralph> scribe+
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15:56:25 <Ralph> Bill: I like Mateus' structure and what Tzviya just said
15:56:37 <Ralph> ... I'd be happy to draft something as a starting point for discussion
15:56:42 <liisamk> +1 to draft and edit via email
15:56:44 <Ralph> Ralph: you're hired!
15:56:44 <Bill_Kasdorf> Ralph: Go for it.
15:57:05 <Ralph> zakim, next item
15:57:05 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Around the Zoom Gallery -- taken up [from Ralph]
15:57:31 <mateus> q+
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15:58:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> Tzviya: The deadline for the videos is July 15. Ralph and I will be developing guidelines.
15:58:40 <tzviya> ack mateus
15:58:40 <Ralph> -> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jx5VvkMTQ4EL0Xfb3pDMDUiccq79mmIPHetSRfbziFM/edit?usp=sharing Short community videos
15:58:44 <Bill_Kasdorf> George: I attended a session yesterday about EPUB that was just terrible. They were businesses threatened by EPUB.
15:59:22 <Bill_Kasdorf> Mateus: Next CG meeting in July will shift to a milestone orientation: specific timelines for TF goals to share concrete outcomes.
15:59:30 <Ralph> Mateus++
15:59:32 <Ralph> Xheng++
15:59:36 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... We hope this will help with transparency and draw in more interest.
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16:00:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> ... Looking forward to joint meeting with WG to look at how EPUB 4 would fit into the CG's role as incubator.
16:00:33 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
16:00:33 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been George, avneeshsingh, wendyreid, Ralph, Dave, Tzviya, Ivan, Liisa, Bill_Kasdorf, liisamk, Cristina, Mateus, Cristina_
16:00:36 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:00:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/11-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
16:00:39 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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19:21:07 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
19:21:07 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2021/06/11-pbgsc-actions.rdf :
19:21:07 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph figure out the calendaring issue that's annoying the EPUB WG [1]
19:21:07 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/06/11-pbgsc-irc#T15-02-10