IRC log of aria on 2021-06-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:58:24 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:58:24 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-aria-irc
16:58:26 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:58:28 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:58:28 [jamesn]
meeting: ARIA WG
16:58:33 [jamesn]
chair: JamesNurthen
16:59:03 [jamesn]
agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3wlqKig)
16:59:03 [jamesn]
agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3pOjIAx)
16:59:03 [jamesn]
agenda+ [Meaty topic for next week](https://bit.ly/3ivpVzm)
16:59:03 [jamesn]
agenda+ [Problematic mappings for <a> without href](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/333)
16:59:03 [jamesn]
agenda+ [Mappings for body and html don't seem to match reality](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/330)
16:59:04 [jamesn]
agenda+ [Exit Criteria Testing: Need test cases and results for Authors MUST/MUST NOT statements in ARIA 1.2](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1492)
16:59:04 [jamesn]
agenda+ [When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description?](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57)
17:05:04 [CurtBellew]
CurtBellew has joined #aria
17:05:07 [pkra]
pkra has joined #aria
17:05:09 [pkra]
present+
17:05:10 [jamesn]
present+
17:05:42 [pkra]
scribe: pkra
17:05:49 [CurtBellew]
present+
17:05:50 [dcaro]
present+
17:05:53 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:05:53 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3wlqKig) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:06:17 [StefanS]
StefanS has joined #aria
17:06:30 [pkra]
jnurthen: issue 1500
17:07:33 [MarkMcCarthy]
MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria
17:07:34 [pkra]
... do we call this a won't fix ?
17:07:38 [MarkMcCarthy]
RRSAgent, make minutes
17:07:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-aria-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy
17:07:46 [pkra]
... or anyone disagree?
17:07:57 [pkra]
bryan: I'll take a look
17:07:57 [MarkMcCarthy]
present+
17:08:26 [pkra]
jnurthen: accname issue 132
17:08:43 [pkra]
... will assign to Melanie
17:08:45 [joanie]
present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:09:11 [pkra]
... accname issue 131
17:09:17 [pkra]
... is it a duplicate?
17:09:19 [pkra]
bryan: will do.
17:09:33 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:09:33 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3pOjIAx) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:10:09 [pkra]
jnurthen: aria PR 1498. please take a first look
17:10:15 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:10:15 [Zakim]
agendum 2 was just opened, pkra
17:10:20 [pkra]
zakim, close item
17:10:20 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close item', pkra
17:10:21 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:10:22 [Zakim]
agendum 2 was just opened, pkra
17:10:27 [pkra]
zakim, close this item
17:10:27 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
17:10:28 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:10:29 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:10:29 [Zakim]
3. [Meaty topic for next week](https://bit.ly/3ivpVzm) [from jamesn]
17:10:29 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- [Meaty topic for next week](https://bit.ly/3ivpVzm) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:10:45 [pkra]
jnurthen: deep dive next week.
17:11:19 [pkra]
... Aaron can't make it for accname discussion, so probably not a good idea.
17:11:33 [pkra]
bryan: would be good to have as many as possible.
17:12:05 [pkra]
jnurthen: any proposals? Otherwise we skip
17:12:22 [pkra]
... e.g., work session on author tests
17:13:21 [pkra]
... ok. currently no proposal. accname deep dive for week after.
17:13:22 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:13:22 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- [Problematic mappings for <a> without href](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/333) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:14:06 [pkra]
scott: comes back to "generic inline" etc.
17:14:38 [jamesn]
q+
17:14:45 [jamesn]
ack me
17:15:13 [pkra]
jnurthen: it's not really the role that makes it generic inline or block.
17:15:35 [siri]
siri has joined #aria
17:15:43 [pkra]
scott: right. comes down to platform mappings. One currently says it maps to text.
17:15:56 [pkra]
... that's why I'd like to get consensus from the group
17:16:02 [pkra]
jnurthen: what does span map to>?
17:16:11 [pkra]
joanie: ATK maps it to generic.
17:16:40 [pkra]
... if my platform is the only blocker, I'm ok with changing it.
17:16:56 [pkra]
scott: a no href for IA1 maps role system text / text frame
17:17:44 [pkra]
... but we have different mappings, same with div
17:18:22 [pkra]
joanie: maybe we can check with NVDA people. IA2 are parallel to ATK mappings. So ask them if it's a problem.
17:18:37 [pkra]
... if they agree, then we can make progress.
17:18:52 [pkra]
... as a follow up conversation, make inline vs block generic a separate issue
17:18:58 [pkra]
... taking CSS into account
17:19:29 [pkra]
... I think we can take CSS into consideration for platform roles
17:19:42 [pkra]
scott: sounds good with me
17:21:04 [pkra]
aaron: do we agree that a without href can just map as span with id?
17:21:19 [pkra]
all: sounds good
17:21:38 [siri]
agree as <span> as it is used a place holder when we <a> without href
17:22:10 [pkra]
aaron: speaking with James Teh, they use a different role for div vs span
17:22:20 [pkra]
... he agreed it was kind of nice but probably didn't matter.
17:23:32 [pkra]
.. and we can tackle block vs inline (and other display) separately
17:23:42 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:23:42 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- [Mappings for body and html don't seem to match reality](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/330) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:24:46 [pkra]
jnurthen: do we have what we need for this?
17:25:18 [pkra]
joanie: currently, we don't match reality. We could match but what would the mapping of body be?
17:25:27 [pkra]
... scott had suggested generic
17:25:57 [pkra]
... but aria-label then prohibited, brought in "UA not to expose it" discussion
17:26:15 [pkra]
... but authoring error and resolution as follow up
17:26:18 [pkra]
... which seems ok
17:26:39 [pkra]
scott: I'm still for generic. naming is not a good idea.
17:27:06 [pkra]
jnurthen: what about matt's recent comment?
17:27:24 [pkra]
joanie: I disagree. it's generic, authors shouldn't put labels on body.
17:27:30 [pkra]
... does anyone think it's a good idea?
17:27:52 [pkra]
cynthia: at most: iframe scenarios
17:28:05 [pkra]
joanie: same as with div
17:28:22 [pkra]
... if we think authors should not / must not do it, then validators will flag it
17:28:29 [pkra]
... but UAs can handle it
17:28:41 [pkra]
scott: and validators already flag it.
17:28:48 [pkra]
jnurthen: so we map it to generic?
17:29:05 [pkra]
... no objection
17:29:21 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:29:21 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- [Exit Criteria Testing: Need test cases and results for Authors MUST/MUST NOT statements in ARIA 1.2](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1492) -- taken up [from
17:29:24 [Zakim]
... jamesn]
17:30:16 [pkra]
jnurthen: a deep dive / work session would be great.
17:30:32 [pkra]
joanie: I could do that. Tried locally, throwing at aXe
17:30:40 [pkra]
cynthia: I could, too.
17:30:50 [pkra]
+1 from pkra
17:31:06 [pkra]
jnurthen: ok, then let's schedule a work session for deep dive next week.
17:32:23 [pkra]
cynthia: could use a refresh on test framework
17:32:39 [pkra]
joanie: couldn't find a great way to automate things yet. But yes, let's talk.
17:33:04 [pkra]
jnurthen: Harris should be able to help. Hopefully at the meeting, too.
17:33:41 [pkra]
... I won't be there though.
17:34:31 [pkra]
zakim, next item
17:34:31 [Zakim]
agendum 7 -- [When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description?](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:34:40 [pkra]
+1 to that
17:35:00 [pkra]
jnurthen: not a lot of comments on it so far.
17:35:23 [pkra]
... maybe start with joanie's tldr
17:35:35 [jamesn]
https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57#issuecomment-843173057
17:37:39 [jamesn]
q?
17:39:51 [pkra]
cynthia: I think I remember some history.
17:40:18 [pkra]
... the original idea for allowing hidden content was to have accessibility API only content.
17:40:45 [pkra]
... initially, all visually hidden was disregarded always.
17:41:12 [pkra]
jnurthen: is there a real world use case for this? I can make some up but I don't know a real one.
17:41:26 [pkra]
... children of something that's hidden not getting exposed.
17:41:58 [pkra]
... e.g. tooltip via describedBy, not visible when focus is moved (delayed) there but you still want it as description.
17:42:12 [pkra]
... you still want that child span to be part of the accessible description.
17:42:37 [pkra]
cynthia: I wonder why it has to be so complicated though.
17:42:50 [pkra]
siri: is this similar to screen-reader only text?
17:43:09 [pkra]
jnurthen: not quite.
17:43:39 [jamesn]
https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57#issuecomment-843186043
17:43:48 [pkra]
... joanie's next comment.
17:43:51 [jamesn]
<div hidden>
17:43:51 [jamesn]
<i id="desc">This is a description.
17:43:51 [jamesn]
<b aria-hidden="true">This should stay hidden.</b>
17:43:51 [jamesn]
<b hidden>And this should stay hidden too.</b></i>
17:43:51 [jamesn]
</div>
17:44:26 [pkra]
... div hidden and being referenced, div with two children additionally hidden
17:44:42 [pkra]
cynthia: first reaction: everything but aria-hidden
17:46:06 [pkra]
scott: a situation where I wouldn't want hidden ones exposed would be a input with aria-required and a hidden label, I might want that.
17:46:16 [siri]
+ scott
17:46:49 [pkra]
jnurthen: but that'd be aria-hidden again
17:47:08 [pkra]
scott: right.
17:48:05 [pkra]
cynthia: the only scenario I can come up with is a dynamic tooltip. Use hidden to get rid of visual stuff and use aria-hidden to hide it from accessibility tree
17:48:32 [pkra]
scott: yes, I can imagine that.
17:49:17 [pkra]
siri: sometimes you put aria-hidden on chevrons etc. because they add too much noise.
17:49:31 [pkra]
jnurthen: so nobody expected it to work the way the spec says today?
17:49:43 [pkra]
... and what about implementations?
17:50:35 [pkra]
joanie: IIRC James had mentioned not wanting to accidentally dive into a huge tree.
17:50:41 [pkra]
... we should check on that.
17:51:05 [pkra]
... my colleague tested it and it seems to prune it all.
17:51:28 [pkra]
jnurthen: do we need a way to not prune that stuff? E.g., aria-hidden.
17:51:35 [pkra]
cynthia: what's chromium doing right now?
17:51:53 [jamesn]
https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57#issuecomment-843032936
17:51:55 [pkra]
joanie: I think Case 2 was only baz in the tree.
17:52:09 [pkra]
jnurthen: comment has some results.
17:53:10 [pkra]
... so chromium matches what you suggested
17:53:25 [pkra]
... firefox ignores both types of hidden
17:53:45 [pkra]
... webkit we'll have to double check.
17:53:56 [pkra]
... can we get agreement from implementors?
17:54:45 [pkra]
... real world use cases would greatly help here.
17:55:15 [pkra]
cynthia: maybe complex tooltips?
17:56:46 [pkra]
cynthia: so for labels, can we agree that aria-hidden is to prune it from accessibility tree, display:none from visual tree?
17:57:04 [pkra]
jnurthen: everyone, please comment on the issue.
17:57:35 [pkra]
... more comments will help inform these decisions, especially from real world examples.
17:58:14 [pkra]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:58:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-aria-minutes.html pkra
18:00:38 [StefanS]
present+
18:01:10 [dcaro]
there's a bunch of thing impacted by some outage yep: https://www.w3.org/2003/08/system-status