16:58:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:58:24 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-aria-irc
16:58:26 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:58:28 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:58:28 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
16:58:33 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
16:59:03 <jamesn> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3wlqKig)
16:59:03 <jamesn> agenda+  [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3pOjIAx)
16:59:03 <jamesn> agenda+  [Meaty topic for next week](https://bit.ly/3ivpVzm)
16:59:03 <jamesn> agenda+  [Problematic mappings for <a> without href](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/333)
16:59:03 <jamesn> agenda+  [Mappings for body and html don't seem to match reality](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/330)
16:59:04 <jamesn> agenda+  [Exit Criteria Testing: Need test cases and results for Authors MUST/MUST NOT statements in ARIA 1.2](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1492)
16:59:04 <jamesn> agenda+  [When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description?](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57)
17:05:04 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
17:05:07 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
17:05:09 <pkra> present+
17:05:10 <jamesn> present+
17:05:42 <pkra> scribe: pkra
17:05:49 <CurtBellew> present+
17:05:50 <dcaro> present+
17:05:53 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:05:53 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3wlqKig) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:06:17 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
17:06:30 <pkra> jnurthen: issue 1500
17:07:33 <MarkMcCarthy> MarkMcCarthy has joined #aria
17:07:34 <pkra> ... do we call this a won't fix ?
17:07:38 <MarkMcCarthy> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:07:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-aria-minutes.html MarkMcCarthy
17:07:46 <pkra> ... or anyone disagree?
17:07:57 <pkra> bryan: I'll take a look
17:07:57 <MarkMcCarthy> present+
17:08:26 <pkra> jnurthen: accname issue 132
17:08:43 <pkra> ... will assign to Melanie
17:08:45 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:09:11 <pkra> ... accname issue 131
17:09:17 <pkra> ... is it a duplicate?
17:09:19 <pkra> bryan: will do.
17:09:33 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:09:33 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3pOjIAx) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:10:09 <pkra> jnurthen: aria PR 1498. please take a first look
17:10:15 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:10:15 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, pkra
17:10:20 <pkra> zakim, close item
17:10:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', pkra
17:10:21 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:10:22 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, pkra
17:10:27 <pkra> zakim, close this item
17:10:27 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
17:10:28 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:10:29 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:10:29 <Zakim> 3. [Meaty topic for next week](https://bit.ly/3ivpVzm) [from jamesn]
17:10:29 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [Meaty topic for next week](https://bit.ly/3ivpVzm) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:10:45 <pkra> jnurthen: deep dive next week.
17:11:19 <pkra> ... Aaron can't make it for accname discussion, so probably not a good idea.
17:11:33 <pkra> bryan: would be good to have as many as possible.
17:12:05 <pkra> jnurthen: any proposals? Otherwise we skip
17:12:22 <pkra> ... e.g., work session on author tests
17:13:21 <pkra> ... ok. currently no proposal. accname deep dive for week after.
17:13:22 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:13:22 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [Problematic mappings for <a> without href](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/333) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:14:06 <pkra> scott: comes back to "generic inline" etc.
17:14:38 <jamesn> q+
17:14:45 <jamesn> ack me
17:15:13 <pkra> jnurthen: it's not really the role that makes it generic inline or block.
17:15:35 <siri> siri has joined #aria
17:15:43 <pkra> scott: right. comes down to platform mappings. One currently says it maps to text.
17:15:56 <pkra> ...  that's why I'd like to get consensus from the group
17:16:02 <pkra> jnurthen: what does span map to>?
17:16:11 <pkra> joanie: ATK maps it to generic.
17:16:40 <pkra> ... if my platform is the only blocker, I'm ok with changing it.
17:16:56 <pkra> scott: a no href for IA1 maps role system text / text frame
17:17:44 <pkra> ... but we have different mappings, same with div
17:18:22 <pkra> joanie: maybe we can check with NVDA people. IA2 are parallel to ATK mappings. So ask them if it's a problem.
17:18:37 <pkra> ... if they agree, then we can make progress.
17:18:52 <pkra> ... as a follow up conversation, make inline vs block generic a separate issue
17:18:58 <pkra> ... taking CSS into account
17:19:29 <pkra> ... I think we can take CSS into consideration for platform roles
17:19:42 <pkra> scott: sounds good with me
17:21:04 <pkra> aaron: do we agree that a without href can just map as span with id?
17:21:19 <pkra> all: sounds good
17:21:38 <siri> agree as <span> as it is used a place holder when we <a> without href
17:22:10 <pkra> aaron: speaking with James Teh, they use a different role for div vs span
17:22:20 <pkra> ... he agreed it was kind of nice but probably didn't matter.
17:23:32 <pkra> .. and we can tackle block vs inline (and other display) separately
17:23:42 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:23:42 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- [Mappings for body and html don't seem to match reality](https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/330) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:24:46 <pkra> jnurthen: do we have what we need for this?
17:25:18 <pkra> joanie: currently, we don't match reality. We could match but what would the mapping of body be?
17:25:27 <pkra> ... scott had suggested generic
17:25:57 <pkra> ... but aria-label then prohibited, brought in "UA not to expose it" discussion
17:26:15 <pkra> ... but authoring error and resolution as follow up
17:26:18 <pkra> ... which seems ok
17:26:39 <pkra> scott: I'm still for generic. naming is not a good idea.
17:27:06 <pkra> jnurthen: what about matt's recent comment?
17:27:24 <pkra> joanie: I disagree. it's generic, authors shouldn't put labels on body.
17:27:30 <pkra> ... does anyone think it's a good idea?
17:27:52 <pkra> cynthia: at most: iframe scenarios
17:28:05 <pkra> joanie: same as with div
17:28:22 <pkra> ... if we think authors should not / must not do it, then validators will flag it
17:28:29 <pkra> ... but UAs can handle it
17:28:41 <pkra> scott: and validators already flag it.
17:28:48 <pkra> jnurthen: so we map it to generic?
17:29:05 <pkra> ... no objection
17:29:21 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:29:21 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [Exit Criteria Testing: Need test cases and results for Authors MUST/MUST NOT statements in ARIA 1.2](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1492) -- taken up [from
17:29:24 <Zakim> ... jamesn]
17:30:16 <pkra> jnurthen: a deep dive / work session would be great.
17:30:32 <pkra> joanie: I could do that. Tried locally, throwing at aXe
17:30:40 <pkra> cynthia: I could, too.
17:30:50 <pkra> +1 from pkra
17:31:06 <pkra> jnurthen: ok, then let's schedule a work session for deep dive next week.
17:32:23 <pkra> cynthia: could use a refresh on test framework
17:32:39 <pkra> joanie: couldn't find a great way to automate things yet. But yes, let's talk.
17:33:04 <pkra> jnurthen: Harris should be able to help. Hopefully at the meeting, too.
17:33:41 <pkra> ... I won't be there though.
17:34:31 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:34:31 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- [When is hidden content taken into calculation of name and description?](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57) -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:34:40 <pkra> +1 to that
17:35:00 <pkra> jnurthen: not a lot of comments on it so far.
17:35:23 <pkra> ... maybe start with joanie's tldr
17:35:35 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57#issuecomment-843173057
17:37:39 <jamesn> q?
17:39:51 <pkra> cynthia: I think I remember some history.
17:40:18 <pkra> ... the original idea for allowing hidden content was to have accessibility API only content.
17:40:45 <pkra> ... initially, all visually hidden was disregarded always.
17:41:12 <pkra> jnurthen: is there a real world use case for this? I can make some up but I don't know a real one.
17:41:26 <pkra> ... children of something that's hidden not getting exposed.
17:41:58 <pkra> ... e.g. tooltip via describedBy, not visible when focus is moved (delayed) there but you still want it as description.
17:42:12 <pkra> ... you still want that child span to be part of the accessible description.
17:42:37 <pkra> cynthia: I wonder why it has to be so complicated though.
17:42:50 <pkra> siri: is this similar to screen-reader only text?
17:43:09 <pkra> jnurthen: not quite.
17:43:39 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57#issuecomment-843186043
17:43:48 <pkra> ... joanie's next comment.
17:43:51 <jamesn> <div hidden>
17:43:51 <jamesn> <i id="desc">This is a description.
17:43:51 <jamesn> <b aria-hidden="true">This should stay hidden.</b>
17:43:51 <jamesn> <b hidden>And this should stay hidden too.</b></i>
17:43:51 <jamesn> </div>
17:44:26 <pkra> ... div hidden and being referenced, div with two children additionally hidden
17:44:42 <pkra> cynthia: first reaction: everything but aria-hidden
17:46:06 <pkra> scott: a situation where I wouldn't want hidden ones exposed would be a input with aria-required and a hidden label, I might want that.
17:46:16 <siri> + scott
17:46:49 <pkra> jnurthen: but that'd be aria-hidden again
17:47:08 <pkra> scott: right.
17:48:05 <pkra> cynthia: the only scenario I can come up with is a dynamic tooltip. Use hidden to get rid of visual stuff and use aria-hidden to hide it from accessibility tree
17:48:32 <pkra> scott: yes, I can imagine that.
17:49:17 <pkra> siri: sometimes you put aria-hidden on chevrons etc. because they add too much noise.
17:49:31 <pkra> jnurthen: so nobody expected it to work the way the spec says today?
17:49:43 <pkra> ... and what about implementations?
17:50:35 <pkra> joanie: IIRC James had mentioned not wanting to accidentally dive into a huge tree.
17:50:41 <pkra> ... we should check on that.
17:51:05 <pkra> ... my colleague tested it and it seems to prune it all.
17:51:28 <pkra> jnurthen: do we need a way to not prune that stuff? E.g., aria-hidden.
17:51:35 <pkra> cynthia: what's chromium doing right now?
17:51:53 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/57#issuecomment-843032936
17:51:55 <pkra> joanie: I think Case 2 was only baz in the tree.
17:52:09 <pkra> jnurthen: comment has some results.
17:53:10 <pkra> ... so chromium matches what you suggested
17:53:25 <pkra> ... firefox ignores both types of hidden
17:53:45 <pkra> ... webkit we'll have to double check.
17:53:56 <pkra> ... can we get agreement from implementors?
17:54:45 <pkra> ... real world use cases would greatly help here.
17:55:15 <pkra> cynthia: maybe complex tooltips?
17:56:46 <pkra> cynthia: so for labels, can we agree that aria-hidden is to prune it from accessibility tree, display:none from visual tree?
17:57:04 <pkra> jnurthen: everyone, please comment on the issue.
17:57:35 <pkra> ... more comments will help inform these decisions, especially from real world examples.
17:58:14 <pkra> rrsagent, make minutes
17:58:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-aria-minutes.html pkra
18:00:38 <StefanS> present+
18:01:10 <dcaro> there's a bunch of thing impacted by some outage yep: https://www.w3.org/2003/08/system-status